Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[57 Years No Cup]

What makes Florida's forward grup successful is they have a pretty deep bench of guys who are on the bigger side, can skate, play nasty and seem to enjoy defensive detail, like they enjoy disrupting you, smothering you and know that effort leads to offensive chances. Then you have their D whose strength looks like quick transition and ability to scramble and defend. And you have a Hall of Fame Russian goalie having a career renaissance to hold it down. That's a lot of strengths and team attributes, identity that becomes a 20 man unit.

Our Leafs brand over the years is "we bet on skill, let the powerplay be our toughness and goalies are voodoo" It's a literal contrast between an organization building a serious team concept with intangibles and strength at every position vs a superficial video game roster that would look thin by NBA standards.

For somebody who has said he stops watching the playoffs once the Leafs are out, you sure have lots of opinions on how other teams play in the playoffs. Exactly how does that work?. Are you watching or are you reading stats? Do tell.

I'd bet on the "reading stats" option.

 

[Confucius]

For somebody who has said he stops watching the playoffs once the Leafs are out, you sure have lots of opinions on how other teams play in the playoffs. Exactly how does that work?. Are you watching or are you reading stats? Do tell.

I know it almost is always the way isn’t it? I guess this year with the coaching change and Marner talk it’s kept me hooked. Also coincidently everyone seems busier this year and no time to get away. lol!

I’ve watched 5 games I think since we were eliminated more than I have in the previous 10 years. I do research stats when I read something that I think is incorrect.

For example we’ve scored more than 2 goals in a single playoff game only once in our last 14. My thoughts are, it is because we play differently in the playoffs. During the playoffs our hitting goes up and our scoring goes down,

 

[ToneDog]

I know it almost is always the way isn’t it? I guess this year with the coaching change and Marner talk it’s kept me hooked. Also coincidently everyone seems busier this year and no time to get away. lol!

I’ve watched 5 games I think since we were eliminated more than I have in the previous 10 years. I do research stats when I read something that I think is incorrect.

For example we’ve scored more than 2 goals in a single playoff game only once in our last 14. My thoughts are, it is because we play differently in the playoffs. During the playoffs our hitting goes up and our scoring goes down,

Our defense laid a beating on the Bruins and the Bruins could barely get SOG let alone score. The major reason we cannot win a game #7 is because we cannot score more than one goal. Columbus, Montreal, Tampa and now Boston. The core is the common denominator. I would not give them most of the blame if they did not chew up half the cap. You cannot not take a discount and not get it done when it counts.

 

[Confucius]

Our defense laid a beating on the Bruins and the Bruins could barely get SOG let alone score. The major reason we cannot win a game #7 is because we cannot score more than one goal. Columbus, Montreal, Tampa and now Boston. The core is the common denominator. I would not give them most of the blame if they did not chew up half the cap. You cannot not take a discount and not get it done when it counts.

I agree with what you are saying if we concentrate on D we don’t score. So we can score and we can play D, we go one extreme to the other. I think it’s bad decision making from the bench on just how to play and adjust during the game in real time. Just my opinion don’t shoot me.

 

[rumman]

I agree with what you are saying if we concentrate on D we don’t score. So we can score and we can play D, we go one extreme to the other. I think it’s bad decision making from the bench on just how to play and adjust during the game in real time. Just my opinion don’t shoot me.

who'd waste a bullet...........just busting your chops.........

 

[ToneDog]

I agree with what you are saying if we concentrate on D we don’t score. So we can score and we can play D, we go one extreme to the other. I think it’s bad decision making from the bench on just how to play and adjust during the game in real time. Just my opinion don’t shoot me.

If you believe Barkov.

Barkov said after Thursday's 3-2 win over the Rangers in Game 5. Later, he elaborated on his team's defensive intensity. “I think that's our foundation and playing style that we want to play — defense first.

What serious contender gives up a game #7 OT winner like we did to the Bruins? That was dreadful, top to bottom.

 

[Confucius]

If you believe Barkov.

Barkov said after Thursday's 3-2 win over the Rangers in Game 5. Later, he elaborated on his team's defensive intensity. “I think that's our foundation and playing style that we want to play — defense first.

What serious contender gives up a game #7 OT winner like we did to the Bruins? That was dreadful, top to bottom.

If you believe Barkov.

Barkov said after Thursday's 3-2 win over the Rangers in Game 5. Later, he elaborated on his team's defensive intensity. “I think that's our foundation and playing style that we want to play — defense first.

What serious contender gives up a game #7 OT winner like we did to the Bruins? That was dreadful, top to bottom.

Boston’s “A” game is D, our “A” is offense. We played their game and lost. No surprise really.

I don’t for a second believe the nonsense, we were scared, or we were not interested and didn’t care.

 

[rumman]

Boston’s “A” game is D, our “A” is offense. We played their game and lost. No surprise really.

I don’t for a second believe the nonsense, we were scared, or we were not interested and didn’t care.

Didn’t care enough is the correct answer………

 

[arso40]

Marner has played with good intensity, Marner has blocked shots, played with pace. All three of Nylander, Marner and Matthews have had moments throughout their career of playing with intensity. Marner it was more noticeable in the Babcock era and also that one year against Tampa where he helped killed the 5 on 3. I don’t even think they don’t play with intensity, they just refuse to go to the middle of the ice honestly. That is the biggest difference I see between watching these games

When I think intensity nate dog comes to mind marner does not guys like bennett are intense once again my friend marner does not at no point in his career shown any intensity other than throwing his gloves down or breaking sticcs In the tunnel

 

[ToneDog]

Boston’s “A” game is D, our “A” is offense. We played their game and lost. No surprise really.

I don’t for a second believe the nonsense, we were scared, or we were not interested and didn’t care.

We've played "O" and lost many more times. Ferraro said it, either Marner is injured or is disinterested. They care but not enough to break a finger nail. Some guys just are not willing to battle and that is as nice as one can say it.

When I think intensity nate dog comes to mind marner does not guys like bennett are intense once again my friend marner does not at no point in his career shown any intensity other than throwing his gloves down or breaking sticcs In the tunnel

What does an intense Marner, Nylander, Matthew, Tavares or Rielly even look like ?

 

[Gallagbi]

We've played "O" and lost many more times. Ferraro said it, either Marner is injured or is disinterested. They care but not enough to break a finger nail. Some guys just are not willing to battle and that is as nice as one can say it.

Weird they care enough to get to competitive game 7s, but not a single ounce more (or less).

We also haven't been all out offense in years.

 

[myleafs]

Why is that true for other players and not him? Ryan O’Reilly for example was traded twice before landing in STL and figuring it out.

Kessel, we were told you could never win with a guy like Kessel, went on to Pittsburgh and figured it out with the right group. Same with Kadri, Marion Hossa, same with Eichel, same with a shit ton of other guys who have moved on and changed/evolved their game in new places.

I don’t get how it’s a silly notion. You can learn to play the right way and especially in an organization that’s big on accountability and holding their players to a high standard it’s possible.

Kessel wasn't paid like or asked to be the man for the pens. He was a complimentary piece, which he has always been, but was expected to be the man in Toronto which was a mistake from the get go. So yea if Marner goes to a contending team and is placed on the 3rd line with no pressure, sure, he might do well. Marner will do well wheverever he goes....in the regular season. Bottom line, if he stays, I hope you right and he can change his playoff spots. I would like nothing more, but I won't ever believe it til I see it.

I do agree that environment and coaches etc can have a huge influence which is why I hated Marleau being the mentor to our young guns and Dubas treating them like they had won 3 cups already. Big problem I see .....As someone else mentioned we have 4 highly paid beta types and none are alpha. I think you can get away with one of your top guys being like that but not all of em.

 

[Antropovsky]

What makes Florida's forward grup successful is they have a pretty deep bench of guys who are on the bigger side, can skate, play nasty and seem to enjoy defensive detail, like they enjoy disrupting you, smothering you and know that effort leads to offensive chances. Then you have their D whose strength looks like quick transition and ability to scramble and defend. And you have a Hall of Fame Russian goalie having a career renaissance to hold it down. That's a lot of strengths and team attributes, identity that becomes a 20 man unit.

Our Leafs brand over the years is "we bet on skill, let the powerplay be our toughness and goalies are voodoo" It's a literal contrast between an organization building a serious team concept with intangibles and strength at every position vs a superficial video game roster that would look thin by NBA standards.

Zito...what a hire by Florida. That's the kind of hire Shanahan should've been after. Zito, in his 50s, played college hockey at Yale, is an attorney, started a successful sports agency (apparently in 2013 it was ranked #8 highest grossing in the world), represented numerous big name players Timonen, Rask, Tim Thomas to name a few. Negotiated numerous lucrative contracts in the process.

This is a guy who isnt likely to struggle with contract negotiations.

Nope... instead we got Dubas. Great work Shanahan.

 

[myleafs]

Agreed we need a top goalie but how can you blame a guy who gives up one goal in regulation in game #7 when you have half your cap invested in 4 forwards? This team virtually needs a SO to win a game #7.

How are we paying for a top goalie again?

 

[myleafs]

If they play the same way and have the same game plan as the regular season they should be fine. If they try and change their style because it’s the playoffs and they are supposedly different they will continue to lose.

Isnt that the issue though? Their style isn't effective in the playoffs. Way less time and space. To me they keep trying to play the way they do in the regular season dipsy doodles and all instead of keeping it simple and working their ass off. Messier talks about the level of pain and who can handle it more once your in the CF. Everything he talked about that is needed in the playoffs I can say I have not seen in any of our top guys. Ill give Tavares some credit as he is willing, he is just not that able.

 

[myleafs]

The Leafs havnt just faced great goaltending, they have faced a gauntlet of elite goaltending no other team has seen early in playoff runs. They would have still lost of course but were just seeing it earlier than other teams. Part of being in the best division for goaltending in the modern era I suppose but you cant expect to have success throwing these losers in net against them.....

and, yes Marner has still gone PPG against them somehow. Pretty sure his points totals would be far higher playing the in the West but that doesnt matter either. I want the team to win. Marner has been by far a positive to the team in the playoffs. The biggest issue has been goaltending.

This isnt like a Panarin issue. That guy is soft, is sheltered, is a defensive liability and has scored waay below his usual pace in the playoffs. Marner has been one of the best defensive wingers in the playoffs, is buried in defensive zone draws against the other teams best players and is still a PPG player the last 3 years despite the elite goaltending he's facing.

Losing Marner would be devastating to the team. The whole strategy this year would be to pile the tough minutes on Marner and Tavares giving Matthews/Domi line free reign on secondary matchups. It actually looked really good until A) Matthews got hurt and B) Samsonov crapped the bed again. I feel like Im taking crazy pills a bit. So the Leafs (the underdog team) has their starting goalie implode again against a consensus conn smyth challenger goalie, their two biggest goal scorers get injured and the blame for how the series went goes to Marner and Rielly? If we didnt have those two guys on the team, we would have probably been wrecked outright in many playoff series instead of them going down to the wire.



Had nothing to do with Woll taking the net right?

You lost me at the bolded and then the shameless adulation for Marner that followed sealed the deal.

 

[Gabriel426]

You lost me at the bolded and then the shameless adulation for Marner that followed sealed the deal.

Didn’t Panthers faced Vas, then Swayman and then Sher. They didn’t seem to get goalied.

 

[LeafSteel]

Zito...what a hire by Florida. That's the kind of hire Shanahan should've been after. Zito, in his 50s, played college hockey at Yale, is an attorney, started a successful sports agency (apparently in 2013 it was ranked #8 highest grossing in the world), represented numerous big name players Timonen, Rask, Tim Thomas to name a few. Negotiated numerous lucrative contracts in the process.

This is a guy who isnt likely to struggle with contract negotiations.

Nope... instead we got Dubas. Great work Shanahan.

Yesh, but does Zito know how to PowerPoint and Excel-talk about WOWY and XGF and GTFO and STFU and OMFG and wear fake glasses?

Come on…..

 

[Racer88]

Didn’t Panthers faced Vas, then Swayman and then Sher. They didn’t seem to get goalied.

That’s true. If we can get goalied so easily why are we paying the expensive 4 so much money

 

[PromisedLand]

Good question.

They played the right way starting in game 5 but they need to start playing that way in October.

I am convinced that a team can't just "turn it on" for playoffs. It needs to be part of your everyday habbit and then in playoff you just do the same thing but with more intensity.

Leafs' lackluster starts especially their forwards is an indication that they rely too much on skill and then going gets tough they fold like a cheap tent because they can't just "turn it on" to play the right way and "turn it off" to get rid of the stupid

 

[PromisedLand]

Our defense laid a beating on the Bruins and the Bruins could barely get SOG let alone score. The major reason we cannot win a game #7 is because we cannot score more than one goal. Columbus, Montreal, Tampa and now Boston. The core is the common denominator. I would not give them most of the blame if they did not chew up half the cap. You cannot not take a discount and not get it done when it counts.

wanna take all the money and want letters on their jerseys and commercials BUT do not want any responsibility when shit hits the fan.

I think Keefe was the only dude willing to take responsibility for failed effort; but he knew his time was up so he didn't give 2 shits about the leafs core IMO

 

[Zybalto]

You lost me at the bolded and then the shameless adulation for Marner that followed sealed the deal.

Just looking at outcomes, Marner's 65% 5v5 goal differential in the playoffs is near the top of all players in hockey the last 3 years. Looking at the differential between that number and average of the rest of the team, he has the biggest spread of anyone in the league. His value as a big minute 2 way player is almost unmatched 5v5.

Forwards with at least 350 minutes played and 15+ minutes a game the last 3 years:

Goal differential:
1. Marner: 64.52
2. McDavid: 62.00
3. MacKinnon: 61.64
4. Verhaghe: 60.81
5. Hyman: 60.76

Goal differential relative teammates:
1. Marner: +22.58
2. McDavid: +21.13
3. Matthews: +15.96
4. Hyman: +15.91
5. Kucherov: +14.43


Thats just going by the outcomes of course. Trying to avoid any fancy analytics and just list outcomes here. Some real anti-fancy stats folks around. Statitically the best and most valuable big minute players the last 3 years for 2 way outcomes 5v5.

The PP is a different story of course but I'm just highlighting this to show the fact that if Marner is so high up for these outcomes, shouldnt there be a ton of bigger problems on the opposite end of this spectrum? Guys that are getting absolutely caved in 5v5?

Didn’t Panthers faced Vas, then Swayman and then Sher. They didn’t seem to get goalied.

Vas may be past it now (although the Bolts poor D play certainly didnt help) and anyone who watched those other 2 series knows Swayman and Shesterkin were their teams only hope as the Panthers have played incredible hockey while having a solid Bobrovsky in net too. I was cheering for Shesterkin to finally get a ring but he's breaking his back carrying that Ranger team. Swayman and Shesterkin exit the playoffs as the 2 best keepers of the playoffs IMO. (.933 an .926 respectfully and earned those numbers too with massive performances) From what we saw of Woll, if we had him from the start, we beat Boston in 5 or 6 IMO. (provided he stays healthy too of course) The good news is that I dont think we will be seeing Samsonov in a Leafs uni again.

 

[GoonieFace]

Just looking at outcomes, Marner's 65% 5v5 goal differential in the playoffs is near the top of all players in hockey the last 3 years. Looking at the differential between that number and average of the rest of the team, he has the biggest spread of anyone in the league. His value as a big minute 2 way player is almost unmatched 5v5.

Forwards with at least 350 minutes played and 15+ minutes a game the last 3 years:

Goal differential:
1. Marner: 64.52
2. McDavid: 62.00
3. MacKinnon: 61.64
4. Verhaghe: 60.81
5. Hyman: 60.76

Goal differential relative teammates:
1. Marner: +22.58
2. McDavid: +21.13
3. Matthews: +15.96
4. Hyman: +15.91
5. Kucherov: +14.43


Thats just going by the outcomes of course. Trying to avoid any fancy analytics and just list outcomes here. Some real anti-fancy stats folks around. Statitically the best and most valuable big minute players the last 3 years for 2 way outcomes 5v5.

The PP is a different story of course but I'm just highlighting this to show the fact that if Marner is so high up for these outcomes, shouldnt there be a ton of bigger problems on the opposite end of this spectrum? Guys that are getting absolutely caved in 5v5?



Vas may be past it now (although the Bolts poor D play certainly didnt help) and anyone who watched those other 2 series knows Swayman and Shesterkin were their teams only hope as the Panthers have played incredible hockey while having a solid Bobrovsky in net too. I was cheering for Shesterkin to finally get a ring but he's breaking his back carrying that Ranger team. Swayman and Shesterkin exit the playoffs as the 2 best keepers of the playoffs IMO. (.933 an .926 respectfully and earned those numbers too with massive performances) From what we saw of Woll, if we had him from the start, we beat Boston in 5 or 6 IMO. (provided he stays healthy too of course) The good news is that I dont think we will be seeing Samsonov in a Leafs uni again.

Yet Marner has 11 career playoff goals. Hyman has 13 this year and Wyatt Johnston has 10.

In your eyes, Marner is the elite of fake hockey stats. Maybe next year he can petition for those to count

 

[Zybalto]

Yet Marner has 11 career playoff goals. Hyman has 13 this year and Wyatt Johnston has 10.

In your eyes, Marner is the elite of fake hockey stats. Maybe next year he can petition for those to count

You've made you mind up and that's it I guess.

Crazy how Hyman only scored 1 point against the Habs with the Leafs eh? You ever go back and watch him blow all those breakaways, 2 on 1s and prime chances over and over again?

Marners fault?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

You've made you mind up and that's it I guess.

Crazy how Hyman only scored 1 point against the Habs with the Leafs eh? You ever go back and watch him blow all those breakaways, 2 on 1s and prime chances over and over again?

Marners fault?

LOL. But what were Hyman's "scoring chance assist" fake stats? Those are the ones that REALLY matter....