Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Zybalto]

Now do points scored in the playoffs vs. dollar of salary earned. You just can't keep the goalposts in place can you?

I'm not moving the goalposts, youre just rambling as your afraid to post your number. Going total points per dollar earned is completely biased to do of course if you dont play as many games. Dollars tied to PPG would be fair enough though but not sure you take into account his defensive prowess.

cmon, lets see it.

The last 3 playoffs combined, Marner has a higher PPG than:

Pasta
Barkov
Stone
Nylander
Panarin
Reinhart
Benn
Point
Stamkos
Robertson
Aho
Hyman
Verhaeghe
Hintz
Trochek
Pavelski
Seguin
Kreider
Kane

...and is better defensively than almost all on the list.

How much has he really been worth? Tell us please.

 

[Gabriel426]

The Panthers actually have a real goalie themselves though. A guy whose won 2 Vezinas and gone on runs. Campbell flamed out almost the instant he left the Leafs and is a has been and our own "starting goalie" the last 2 years has had to be sent to the AHL and been pulled the last 2 series in a row.

There were a few of us warning about this early and here we are.



Keep laughing all you want. It's still gonna look like an 80 IQ take.

How much overpaid do you think he is? 12th in PPG among forwards and elite defensively over the last 3 seasons.

Gimmie a number.

It still wouldnt compare to running terrible goaltending in the playoffs against the top division for goaltending again.

But Panthers did beat two if not three great goalies enroute to the Finals. Thats a fact.

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm not moving the goalposts, youre just rambling as your afraid to post your number. Going total points per dollar earned is completely biased to do of course if you dont play as many games. Dollars tied to PPG would be fair enough though but not sure you take into account his defensive prowess.

cmon, lets see it.

The last 3 playoffs combined, Marner has a higher PPG than:

Pasta
Barkov
Stone
Nylander
Panarin
Reinhart
Benn
Point
Stamkos
Robertson
Aho
Hyman
Verhaeghe
Hintz
Trochek
Pavelski
Seguin
Kreider
Kane

...and is better defensively than almost all on the list.

How much has he really been worth? Tell us please.

How much do MM makes and how much do the others make?
Then break down in each points total per round, as I don't think it is fair that MM only play a round per season except for last year and the rest usually goes on deep run or at the very least more than a round.
Stop using PPG since it is quite misleading as most of the players on the list played a lot more playoffs games. Wear and tear is a factor in playoffs. Something none of our top guys would know as none of them played more than 11 games in a playoffs.

 

[Zybalto]

But Panthers did beat two if not three great goalies enroute to the Finals. Thats a fact.

Panthers are a great team through and through. No real weakness.

They had goaltending issues last season (which is why they needed the Pens to choke out to make it to the show) but Bob figured it back out and they have been flying since.

 

[Gabriel426]

Panthers are a great team through and through. No real weakness.

They had goaltending issues last season (which is why they needed the Pens to choke out to make it to the show) but Bob figured it back out and they have been flying since.

They also didn't have three and soon to be four players making close to 11mil or more.
They only got two players making 10mil. Maybe having three or four players making 11mil just not a good way to build the team.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I'm not moving the goalposts, youre just rambling as your afraid to post your number. Going total points per dollar earned is completely biased to do of course if you dont play as many games. Dollars tied to PPG would be fair enough though but not sure you take into account his defensive prowess.

cmon, lets see it.

The last 3 playoffs combined, Marner has a higher PPG than:

Pasta
Barkov
Stone
Nylander
Panarin
Reinhart
Benn
Point
Stamkos
Robertson
Aho
Hyman
Verhaeghe
Hintz
Trochek
Pavelski
Seguin
Kreider
Kane

...and is better defensively than almost all on the list.

How much has he really been worth? Tell us please.

Oh, now you're going with the "last 3 playoffs". How about all playoffs PPG? How about games 4 thru 7 when the going gets tough but Marner disappears? How about points in elimination games?

See, I can shift the goalposts too.

PS- There's a salary cap and $$$$ matter.

 

[GoonieFace]

Oh, now you're going with the "last 3 playoffs". How about all playoffs PPG? How about games 4 thru 7 when the going gets tough but Marner disappears? How about points in elimination games?

See, I can shift the goalposts too.

PS- There's a salary cap and $$$$ matter.

I would also add points after the first round of the playoffs, but we all know we can’t

 

[Gabriel426]

I would also add points after the first round of the playoffs, but we all know we can’t

Thats not fair for our guys as they never played in the ECF or SCF. Their advanced stats showed that they would dominate when they get to play at the ECF and SCF, lol. Just like my advanced stats showed that I would make billions and billions if I have billions dollars to invest.

 

[Zybalto]

How much do MM makes and how much do the others make?
Then break down in each points total per round, as I don't think it is fair that MM only play a round per season except for last year and the rest usually goes on deep run or at the very least more than a round.
Stop using PPG since it is quite misleading as most of the players on the list played a lot more playoffs games. Wear and tear is a factor in playoffs. Something none of our top guys would know as none of them played more than 11 games in a playoffs.

Naw, PPG is the only fairest way. Some players play more bruising styles. How do we measure that? How do injuries play into it? Some players don't make it every year for reasons not their own so do we hold it against them?

Over the last 7 seasons, Marchand has 39 goals and 95 points in the playoffs. McDavid has 25 goals 95 points. Marchand>McDavid?

In reality, McDavid has a higher GPG and McDavids PPG is an insane 1.792 PPG and Marchand is 1.18. Gotta be fair here.

Oh, now you're going with the "last 3 playoffs". How about all playoffs PPG? How about games 4 thru 7 when the going gets tough but Marner disappears? How about points in elimination games?

See, I can shift the goalposts too.

PS- There's a salary cap and $$$$ matter.

I almost always do 3 season samples....and we can talk about that other stuff too....but you still havnt listed a number.

I'm still not shifting anything.

 

[Gabriel426]

Naw, PPG is the only fairest way. Some players play more bruising styles. How do we measure that? How do injuries play into it? Some players don't make it every year for reasons not their own so do we hold it against them?

Over the last 7 seasons, Marchand has 39 goals and 95 points in the playoffs. McDavid has 25 goals 95 points. Marchand>McDavid?

In reality, McDavid has a higher GPG and McDavids PPG is an insane 1.792 PPG and Marchand is 1.18. Gotta be fair here.




I almost always do 3 season samples....and we can talk about that other stuff too....but you still havnt listed a number.

I'm still not shifting anything.

Got to disagree with you on that. As I think playoffs stats should be treated each year and not lump into a few playoffs as the sample size can be quite small. Unlike regular seasons where if healthy, players would play close to 80 games but in playoffs, any given player could only played 5 games or 18 games in any particular playoffs. Thats why I think PPG in playoffs is misleading and not a fair assessment overall on the players. As players can get hot and cold in a 5-7 games series. Just look at Goodrow and Coleman. Having said that, if a player continue to choke in playoffs year after year, think it is time to cut lose and just build around other pieces.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Naw, PPG is the only fairest way. Some players play more bruising styles. How do we measure that? How do injuries play into it? Some players don't make it every year for reasons not their own so do we hold it against them?

Over the last 7 seasons, Marchand has 39 goals and 95 points in the playoffs. McDavid has 25 goals 95 points. Marchand>McDavid?

In reality, McDavid has a higher GPG and McDavids PPG is an insane 1.792 PPG and Marchand is 1.18. Gotta be fair here.




I almost always do 3 season samples....and we can talk about that other stuff too....but you still havnt listed a number.

I'm still not shifting anything.

Here's the most important numbers- $10.9 million AAV, zero results.

 

[Racer88]

Panthers are a great team through and through. No real weakness.

They had goaltending issues last season (which is why they needed the Pens to choke out to make it to the show) but Bob figured it back out and they have been flying since.

I thought we were supposed to be a great team too. Isn’t that why we are paying 4 forwards so much money

 

[Nineteen67]

Naw, PPG is the only fairest way. Some players play more bruising styles. How do we measure that? How do injuries play into it? Some players don't make it every year for reasons not their own so do we hold it against them?

Over the last 7 seasons, Marchand has 39 goals and 95 points in the playoffs. McDavid has 25 goals 95 points. Marchand>McDavid?

In reality, McDavid has a higher GPG and McDavids PPG is an insane 1.792 PPG and Marchand is 1.18. Gotta be fair here.




I almost always do 3 season samples....and we can talk about that other stuff too....but you still havnt listed a number.

I'm still not shifting anything.

I think it’s easiest to just watch them and you’ll see that Matthews and Marner have not been good enough in the playoffs. Why? I would say they don’t have the skill set to play in that type of game.

 

[GoonieFace]

I think it’s easiest to just watch them and you’ll see that Matthews and Marner have not been good enough in the playoffs. Why? I would say they don’t have the skill set to play in that type of game.

Why waste your time and watch games, when you can just look at some made up fantasy stats and form an opinion based on that instead.

 

[Zybalto]

Got to disagree with you on that. As I think playoffs stats should be treated each year and not lump into a few playoffs as the sample size can be quite small. Unlike regular seasons where if healthy, players would play close to 80 games but in playoffs, any given player could only played 5 games or 18 games in any particular playoffs. Thats why I think PPG in playoffs is misleading and not a fair assessment overall on the players. As players can get hot and cold in a 5-7 games series. Just look at Goodrow and Coleman. Having said that, if a player continue to choke in playoffs year after year, think it is time to cut lose and just build around other pieces.

I dont mind taking each playoffs at face value but its exactly because the sample sizes are so small that we have to expand to get a bigger picture.

If you took McDavids first 3 years of his contract and applied faulty playoffs points to dollars mentality to his value then you would end up with a bunch of nonsense.....and the reason he didnt make the playoffs in earlier years, despite being the greatest player on the planet, was because its a team sport. Even now with a far more solid team, things look shaky due to poor depth and goaltending. (Im rooting hard for him though as this chance might not come again).

PPG literally levels the playing field for those great players that have incomplete teams.

Has Necas really been better than Nylander the last 3 years? He has one more point in twice the games. Using this flawed logic, you can already label the Nylander contract maybe the worst in the league no? If the Leafs run another few years of Samsonov/Campbells, Nylander should be declared a complete scrub right?

 

[Gabriel426]

I dont mind taking each playoffs at face value but its exactly because the sample sizes are so small that we have to expand to get a bigger picture.

If you took McDavids first 3 years of his contract and applied faulty playoffs points to dollars mentality to his value then you would end up with a bunch of nonsense.....and the reason he didnt make the playoffs in earlier years, despite being the greatest player on the planet, was because its a team sport. Even now with a far more solid team, things look shaky due to poor depth and goaltending. (Im rooting hard for him though as this chance might not come again).

PPG literally levels the playing field for those great players that have incomplete teams.

Has Necas really been better than Nylander the last 3 years? He has one more point in twice the games. Using this flawed logic, you can already label the Nylander contract maybe the worst in the league no? If the Leafs run another few years of Samsonov/Campbells, Nylander should be declared a complete scrub right?

For starter, I would not look at the past few years in playoffs but rather look at each playoffs(year) individually. As why do you need to lump the past three years or four years or two years? What is the purpose of that? As I said earlier, playoffs is not like the regular season where players played 80 games or so.
Think the most recent playoffs(given it was not 4-5 seasons ago) is a pretty good indicator of the players ability in playoffs.
Secondly, Goals matter more.
Thirdly, our boys are a whole bunch of Betas that thinks they are Alphas, they will always hide behind these advanced stats instead of real stats, such as WINS in playoffs.
Skinner is by far the worst goalie this playoffs and yet he is going to play in the SCF b/c the big guys on the team showed up to play instead of kept learning lessons or being right there.

 

[ToneDog]

Thats not fair for our guys as they never played in the ECF or SCF. Their advanced stats showed that they would dominate when they get to play at the ECF and SCF, lol. Just like my advanced stats showed that I would make billions and billions if I have billions dollars to invest.

Some might say they did not play in round 2 last year after winning their SC for Kyle

 

[Squiffy]

Good, although I think the old Basil Rathbone movies were the best, and certainly closest to the feel of the books. But I grew up on old black and white movies, and colour just doesn't convey the film noir atmosphere the same way.

(I recently watched "Green for Danger", a good little whodunnit, and the only time I've seen Alistair Sim other than as Scrooge.)

Although I think it would be better for the team if Marner left one way or another, I wouldn't be surprised if your scenario happens.

Ya the Rathbone Sherlock was and is the standard, very true to books. Did love the modern take on it from the BBC series, the 4th season not so much but the first two seasons especially were amazing.

I don't see the Leafs having the set to walk from Marner. I'd suppose this next season is going to inform a lot of the choice.

 

[Zybalto]

For starter, I would not look at the past few years in playoffs but rather look at each playoffs(year) individually. As why do you need to lump the past three years or four years or two years? What is the purpose of that? As I said earlier, playoffs is not like the regular season where players played 80 games or so.
Think the most recent playoffs(given it was not 4-5 seasons ago) is a pretty good indicator of the players ability in playoffs.
Secondly, Goals matter more.
Thirdly, our boys are a whole bunch of Betas that thinks they are Alphas, they will always hide behind these advanced stats instead of real stats, such as WINS in playoffs.
Skinner is by far the worst goalie this playoffs and yet he is going to play in the SCF b/c the big guys on the team showed up to play instead of kept learning lessons or being right there.

Is the 10-5 .890 Skinner by far worse than the 1-4 .896 Samsonov? Not if we go by the WINS in playoffs rule I guess but we do know that Campbell got chased out of the league just by switching to the Oilers and Skinner beat him out as the far superior goalie.

Skinners the one trying to hold the fort tonight as his team is getting outshot 32-10 with 7 minutes left in the third lol. Just gave up one though but still keeping his team in it. I dont think Samsonov was ever put in this position let alone won us any games this way. Lets see if Skinner can do it.

 

[Gabriel426]

Is the 10-5 .890 Skinner by far worse than the 1-4 .896 Samsonov? Not if we go by the WINS in playoffs rule I guess but we do know that Campbell got chased out of the league just by switching to the Oilers and Skinner beat him out as the far superior goalie.

Skinners the one trying to hold the fort tonight as his team is getting outshot 32-10 with 7 minutes left in the third lol. Just gave up one though but still keeping his team in it. I dont think Samsonov was ever put in this position let alone won us any games this way. Let’s see if Skinner can do it.

Really? How many goals did the Oilers scored today? And how many goals did our boys scored in Game 7. If our boys actually got two goals before Bruins scored one, the game will probably end at 2-1 for us.
Come on, you can’t say Skinner is a better goalie than Sammy, like come on, you are a lot better than that. Pickard started a game or two in place of Skinner and he could not even crack the Leafs lineup a few years back.
What’s next, are you going to say Nurse is a better Dman than Reilly?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

TRADE MARNER

Just getting in my daily rep, like this savage.

 

[arso40]

I'm not moving the goalposts, youre just rambling as your afraid to post your number. Going total points per dollar earned is completely biased to do of course if you dont play as many games. Dollars tied to PPG would be fair enough though but not sure you take into account his defensive prowess.

cmon, lets see it.

The last 3 playoffs combined, Marner has a higher PPG than:

Pasta
Barkov
Stone
Nylander
Panarin
Reinhart
Benn
Point
Stamkos
Robertson
Aho
Hyman
Verhaeghe
Hintz
Trochek
Pavelski
Seguin
Kreider
Kane

...and is better defensively than almost all on the list.

How much has he really been worth? Tell us please.

Do you watch the games or the stat line do you deep dive the numbers if your going to hitch your wagon to the stats??

 

[Zybalto]

Really? How many goals did the Oilers scored today? And how many goals did our boys scored in Game 7. If our boys actually got two goals before Bruins scored one, the game will probably end at 2-1 for us.
Come on, you can’t say Skinner is a better goalie than Sammy, like come on, you are a lot better than that. Pickard started a game or two in place of Skinner and he could not even crack the Leafs lineup a few years back.
What’s next, are you going to say Nurse is a better Dman than Reilly?

Man, that was an exciting 3rd.

McDavid and Skinner really saved the Oilers bacon tonight. Skinner threw up a .971 when the Oilers only could manage 10 shots on net.

Why would I compare Rielly and Nurse? Rielly is legit top 10 dman in the playoffs over the last while. Nurse is part of the reason why Skinner has gotten such a.bad rep. Do a dollar to performance ratio on Nurse, jeez.

 

[Gabriel426]

Man, that was an exciting 3rd.

McDavid and Skinner really saved the Oilers bacon tonight. Skinner threw up a .971 when the Oilers only could manage 10 shots on net.

Why would I compare Rielly and Nurse? Rielly is legit top 10 dman in the playoffs over the last while. Nurse is part of the reason why Skinner has gotten such a.bad rep. Do a dollar to performance ratio on Nurse, jeez.

if only our top guys can show up like McD, Drai and Hyman. Too bad they all tend to choke and find ways to lose.

 

[Zybalto]

if only our top guys can show up like McD, Drai and Hyman. Too bad they all tend to choke and find ways to lose.

Hymans choke job with the Leafs may never be topped. I've never seen a bigger example of stone hands than him constantly blowing grade A chances that Habs series. Nice of him to find his touch with the Oil I guess.....and maybe Price had a little to do with that too.

Didn't like Drais game tonight but it's just one rough of many good. The Oilers PP is a cheat code.