Mitch Marner Offseason Continued

[Notsince67]

Cooper has said it many times. After losing to CBJ, they figured out the recipe (and it was not all the value signings). Dubas clearly has not and will not due to the cap and not having much in the pipeline. He can't even resign his 5th best forward and wants to compete for the SC with Campbell as his #1. Spin away.

This Cooper?

 

[ToneDog]

Forwards are paid for offensive generation and production, which can include goals or assists. Primary assists especially are similarly valuable to goals. Backstrom was easily a worse player than Ovechkin - it wasn't just a difference in playstyle - so not sure what that has to do with this.

Newsflash, Mitch ain't getting many assists if Matty is not lighting it up. Teams know how to shut the two down. Question is whether they care enough to do so in the regular season because they definitely do in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

This Cooper?

Yup Cooper playing the politician. Don't believe everything people say.

 

[Trapper]

Forwards are paid for offensive generation and production, which can include goals or assists. Primary assists especially are similarly valuable to goals. Backstrom was easily a worse player than Ovechkin - it wasn't just a difference in playstyle - so not sure what that has to do with this.

Well how many primary assists was Backstrom pulling in during his prime?
He’s a .97 career center. Your statement of easily a worse player to a generational goal scorer (while he was one of the top centers in the league) is making him sound like 2nd/3rd liner.
Backstrom’s totals are easily comparable to Marner’s assist abilities while also playing the tougher position.

Matthews is the man here.
Marner shouldn’t be up in the double digits with him. That’s some of the problem in the cap.

 

[Dekes For Days]

After losing to CBJ, they figured out the recipe

If that recipe was avoiding panicking and blowing up a competitive roster because of some playoff disappointment, than sure, they figured it out.

Dubas clearly has not and will not due to the cap and not having much in the pipeline. He can't even resign his 5th best forward and wants to compete for the SC with Campbell as his #1.

1. Dubas has shown an excellent ability to navigate the cap, regardless of what difficult situation is thrown at him.
2. We have drafted quite well and have a nice pipeline, and have players ready to step in next year.
3. Love Hyman, and we could likely keep him if we really wanted, but I'm not sure signing a player like that into his mid-30s is the best use of cap space. It's interesting how he's escaped so much of the criticism, with just 1 point in each of the last two 7-game series.
4. You don't know what goalies we will go with, and Campbell has played quite well, so not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah...here is news...Marleau aint getting into the hall of fame for his playoff goals.
I said do better.

Newsflash - pretty much everyone you're responding to is already doing better than you.

 

[Notsince67]

Newsflash, Mitch ain't getting many assists if Matty is not lighting it up. Teams know how to shut the two down. Question is whether they care enough to do so in the regular season because they definitely do in the playoffs.

Here is a real newsflash.
Bruce Cassidy dropped Gretzky's name when discussing Mitch Marner's Game 1 performance - Article - Bardown

 

[Notsince67]

Yup Cooper playing the politician. Don't believe everything people say.

heh.
So this kind of stuff is what Cooper says all the time?
Care to show some examples?

 

[socko]

If that recipe was avoiding panicking and blowing up a competitive roster because of some playoff disappointment, than sure, they figured it out.

1. Dubas has shown an excellent ability to navigate the cap, regardless of what difficult situation is thrown at him.
2. We have drafted quite well and have a nice pipeline, and have players ready to step in next year.
3. Love Hyman, and we could likely keep him if we really wanted, but I'm not sure signing a player like that into his mid-30s is the best use of cap space. It's interesting how he's escaped so much of the criticism, with just 1 point in each of the last two 7-game series.
4. You don't know what goalies we will go with, and Campbell has played quite well, so not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

Hyman relies on scoring garbage goals off of Matthews scoring chances. Matthews isn't getting scoring chances. When you have only 1 guy on a line that is any kind of a shooting threat, the oppositions job is easy. Hyman isn't worth anywhere near what he's reportedly asking for. I expect him to be back in Toronto, nobody can beat Dubas the Overpayer.

 

[mclaren55]

Here is a real newsflash.
Bruce Cassidy dropped Gretzky's name when discussing Mitch Marner's Game 1 performance - Article - Bardown

I think most have stated how early on Marner was possessed during the playoffs. The last two years though he has fallen off. Bringing up examples from when he was playing well is irrelevant to what has occurred in recent memory.

 

[Notsince67]

I think most have stated how early on Marner was possessed during the playoffs. The last two years though he has fallen off. Bringing up examples from when he was playing well is irrelevant to what has occurred in recent memory.

I'm not loving it. The problem is that statements such as him not being able to produce without Matthews are garbage.
The last 2 years, we've seen a system that gets the first line shut down.
I see 2 things that remain unanswered...
1. is playoff chemistry a problem between M&M or
2. is there a systematic issue in the last 2 years that stops the two from producing?

 

[ToneDog]

If that recipe was avoiding panicking and blowing up a competitive roster because of some playoff disappointment, than sure, they figured it out.

1. Dubas has shown an excellent ability to navigate the cap, regardless of what difficult situation is thrown at him.
2. We have drafted quite well and have a nice pipeline, and have players ready to step in next year.
3. Love Hyman, and we could likely keep him if we really wanted, but I'm not sure signing a player like that into his mid-30s is the best use of cap space. It's interesting how he's escaped so much of the criticism, with just 1 point in each of the last two 7-game series.
4. You don't know what goalies we will go with, and Campbell has played quite well, so not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

1. Dubas shopped at the Dollarama last summer and failed other than dumping Barrie and Ceci (his two previous summer's prized pick ups) for Brodie and Bogo.

2. Sandin and Robbie perhaps. The jury is out on the rest.

3. Hyman has played hurt in 2 of the last 3 playoffs. He played at his pay grade and had as many goals as 34 and one more than 16 this year. Don't have to tell you which players did not play to their pay grades. Even so, Dubas would sign him in a second if Hymie took a large enough discount.

4. Nope but I can make an educated guess that we won't be signing a goalie for $5m or more. Guessing both our goalies will be earning less than Varlamov who is the lowest paid #1G of the remaining 4 teams. Yup Dubas has done fine navigating the cap hell he has created.

 

[mclaren55]

I'm not loving it. The problem is that statements such as him not being able to produce without Matthews are garbage.
The last 2 years, we've seen a system that gets the first line shut down.
I see 2 things that remain unanswered...
1. is playoff chemistry a problem between M&M or
2. is there a systematic issue in the last 2 years that stops the two from producing?

Wasn't Mitch on JTs wing for most of his early playoff career? Maybe getting away from shut down lines helped him flourish? Not saying that is 100% the issue, but it may be a contributing factor.

 

[ToneDog]

heh.
So this kind of stuff is what Cooper says all the time?
Care to show some examples?

IIRC Cassidy said good things about Mitch in the playoffs as well. Some of it is gamesmanship IMO. No do not care to search the net for more Cooper stuff. What Copper said about finding the recipe after losing to CBJ is proven by the subsequent moves they made and has nothing to do with Marner.

 

[Notsince67]

Wasn't Mitch on JTs wing for most of his early playoff career? Maybe getting away from shut down lines helped him flourish? Not saying that is 100% the issue, but it may be a contributing factor.

When he played with JT, they were matched against the Bergeron line.

 

[Notsince67]

IIRC Cassidy said good things about Mitch in the playoffs as well. Some of it is gamesmanship IMO. No do not care to search the net for more Cooper stuff. What Copper said about finding the recipe after losing to CBJ is proven by the subsequent moves they made and has nothing to do with Marner.

I get it but this thread is a Marner thread so if you segue into a discussion of Cooper, you need to accept what he has said in entirety...not cherry pick to suit your specific line of attack.

 

[mclaren55]

When he played with JT, they were matched against the Bergeron line.

Maybe JT is better at creating space for his wingers than Matthews? Is there some sort of advanced stat that would show that?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well how many primary assists was Backstrom pulling in during his prime?

Backstrom is much more reliant on secondary assists, and was easily a worse player, though himself got a contract that would almost reach double-digits under the same cap, despite the contract being lowered by taking him through decline years in now illegal ways.

Your statement of easily a worse player to a generational goal scorer is making him sound like 2nd/3rd liner.

No, it's saying exactly what he is - a worse player than Ovechkin. As such, you can't compare his contract to Ovechkin's and attribute the difference to goalscorer vs. playmaker, in an attempt to devalue playmaking, when the difference is primarily in the quality of the players, playstyle aside. You're also looking at one instance of a generational goal-scorer, which isn't really the best way to make such a determination about the value of types of players in the first place.

 

[ToneDog]

I get it but this thread is a Marner thread so if you segue into a discussion of Cooper, you need to accept what he has said in entirety...not cherry pick to suit your specific line of attack.

I was responding to Deke's comment,

"That's just simply not true. Again, the Leafs would have been torn apart if they were Tampa after being swept by Columbus that year,"

More about the construction of the team but yes it is a Marner thread.

 

[ACC1224]

Dubas' obvious philosophy for the longest time was to try and figure skate around the other teams with skill and basically dictate to the rest of the league how the game was going to be played. Well, he failed at that miserably and only recently tried to up the truculence with signing has-beens like Simmonds, etc. Even Simmonds stopped playing physical after his injury....why would he bother? No one else on the team is willing to do so outside of a couple of guys.

That’s what I was saying or trying to. Seems more of a cultural thing

 

[Future]

Marner is a superstar player when he is on and that’s never been in question. The problem is when he is OFF which happens far too frequently for someone getting paid just under 11m annually. Even throughout the regular season I remember posting in GDT’s about how horrible Marner looked out there at times.

The best comparison for Marner when he is off, for those that have played the NHL video games, is when you are playing Be a Pro and you get accustomed to the difficulty scoring 3-5 points/game. Then you turn it up a notch or two, and the same moves you used to do to score almost automatically, no longer work. You keep trying to force it because of those habits and make awful decisions/turnovers.

 

[egd27]

Again, the Leafs would have been torn apart if they were Tampa after being swept by Columbus that year,

TBL had been a Final Four team for 3 of the previous 4 seasons. Were the Leafs able to achieve that type of success, there were be a lot more grace given for an unexpected first round loss.

When you've lost the opening series in 5 post seasons in a row, patience has worn justifiably thin.

 

[Dekes For Days]

1. Dubas shopped at the Dollarama last summer and failed

Dubas did a great job putting together the roster this past year.

2. Sandin and Robbie perhaps. The jury is out on the rest.

You said we didn't have much in the pipeline. That's false.

3. Hyman has played hurt in 2 of the last 3 playoffs.

Sounds like something that could hurt his linemates. Yet you're still lamenting the possibility of not re-signing him into his mid-30s...

He played at his pay grade

He did not play at his pay grade, and really, his contract is irrelevant at that point. Expectations for him were much higher, and yet he escapes criticism. Because this isn't about properly evaluating how each player played. This is about people desperately searching for reasons to pile on Marner because of their misguided issues with his contract.

4. Nope but I can make an educated guess that we won't be signing a goalie for $5m or more.

Good. Most teams should not be paying significant amounts for goalies. None of this changes the fact that Campbell played well. Our goalie is on a great contract. Oh no! The horror!

Yup Dubas has done fine navigating the cap hell he has created.

Dubas didn't create any cap hell. He's the one effectively navigating it.

 

[Notsince67]

Maybe JT is better at creating space for his wingers than Matthews? Is there some sort of advanced stat that would show that?

There are all kind of shots and shot quality data. Unfortunately, there isnt much to show player position tracking (that is available) ....especially opposing players clogging the front of the net or trap like strategies in the neutral zone.

 

[egd27]

Good. Most teams should not be paying significant amounts for goalies.

And yet 3 of the top 5 AAV Goalies are still playing. Probably just a coincidence.