Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVII: What An Ugly Number

[Beef Invictus]

He didn't want him back. One of the rare good moves he has made.

This is not about his direction. This is about 1 transaction.

The team stinks with or without Clode. It was time for both to cut the cord. If Clode even wanted to win in any way at all he would have asked out years ago.

You haven't talked about Ghost in while, go beat that horse.

"Please stop talking about this subject because I'm wrong" is the correct translation of your last line.

If it's not about direction, why did you bring up team direction?

Giroux offered a way for Fletcher to make the team better. Fletcher refused to take that option. That's wholly on Fletcher and nobody else.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[blackjackmulligan]

"Please stop talking about this subject because I'm wrong" is the correct translation of your last line.

If it's not about direction, why did you bring up team direction?

Giroux offered a way for Fletcher to make the team better. Fletcher refused to take that option. That's wholly on Fletcher and nobody else.

Not wrong in anyway. Facts are in front of you. You refuse to accept them.

That was mighty nice of Clode to offer a way to make the team better. That is leadership.

you mentioned direction in your post I responded to.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not wrong in anyway. Facts are in front of you. You refuse to accept them.

That was mighty nice of Clode to offer a way to make the team better. That is leadership.

you mentioned direction in your post I responded to.

Ah yes, because you are knowns for arguing that they needed to go a different direction away from Claude, which is also a puddle of nonsense.

It was nice of him to do that. It was the height of incompetence for Fletcher to refuse the deal.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Ah yes, because you are knowns for arguing that they needed to go a different direction away from Claude, which is also a puddle of nonsense.

It was nice of him to do that. It was the height of incompetence for Fletcher to refuse the deal.

Puddle of nonsense in your opinion.

Players get stale. Organizations get stale. That is a fact. Has zero to do with his talent.

What's funny is I would bet my right nut had they given Clode an ext you would be ripping on the GM for that as well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Puddle of nonsense in your opinion.

Players get stale. Organizations get stale. That is a fact. Has zero to do with his talent.

What's funny is I would bet my right nut had they given Clode an ext you would be ripping on the GM for that as well.

No, I would not be. Because Giroux is a really, really good player. Fletcher trading him for a better return and bringing him back would be the best trade of his career, not that the bar is set very high.

This "stale" nonsense reeks of the same reasoning that insists the captaincy is incredibly important when it's not. People expressed similar notions about Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and Stamkos right up until they won Cups. Having high quality skill never gets stale. The only stale thing is the Clarke management tree.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Calling him Clode just screams having a genuine discussion.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Yeah but who will have more hits and fights?

what do they call the cup for team with the most fights /hits ?..

i forget...

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No, I would not be. Because Giroux is a really, really good player. Fletcher trading him for a better return and bringing him back would be the best trade of his career, not that the bar is set very high.

This "stale" nonsense reeks of the same reasoning that insists the captaincy is incredibly important when it's not. People expressed similar notions about Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and Stamkos right up until they won Cups. Having high quality skill never gets stale. The only stale thing is the Clarke management tree.

Again nonsense in your opinion. Though in your world it is a fact I am sure.

Man you are boring as hell. Back to Clarke. Go back to beating that horse. I am sure some will oblige.

Still waiting for you to share what deal Fletcher turned down that you have said multiple times.

Calling him Clode just screams having a genuine discussion.

Clode is the 3rd best Flyers forward in team history.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux is 35 on a 3yr/$20M contract. Which would have been foolish for the Flyers to match, especially since they're stuck with JVR for a year.

They got good value for him, even with multiple suitors, they wouldn't have garnered much more, there were zero rumors of anyone offering an "A" prospect, because Giroux wasn't that kind of asset. He was a 34 year old rental who had scored at less than 2.0 pp/60 at 5x5 the last two seasons - he wasn't Eichel at 25, or Stone at 28 or . . .

RIsto is the one bad move, TDA was a good gamble, Ellis was a good gamble (gave up two marginal players), Atkinson, especially with Torts on board, is a better fit, and so on.

So all the whining comes down to the Risto deal. People may not like Hayes, but when healthy he is a 2C, not a marginal 1C (i.e. 30-40th best center), but in the 40-50 range - middle of the pack for 2Cs.

5x5 scoring the last 3 years:
Hayes 1.75 pp/60 [2017-2019, 3 years when he was 100%, 1.95]

Trocheck 1.91
Roslovic 1.86
Bennett 1.86
Kreider 1.85
Paveliski 1.84
Guorde 1.84
Schenn 1.84
Necas 1.81
Laughton 1.79
Eichel 1.77
Erikkson Ek 1.77
Backlund 1.76
Chytil 1.76
Eller 1.76
Kopitar 1.73
Dubois 1.69
Carter 1.67
NGH 1.65
Stastny 1.64
Suzuki 1.62
Staal 1.62
J Hughes 1.62
Horvat 1.60

 

[Beef Invictus]

Again nonsense in your opinion. Though in your world it is a fact I am sure.

Man you are boring as hell. Back to Clarke. Go back to beating that horse. I am sure some will oblige.

Still waiting for you to share what deal Fletcher turned down that you have said multiple times.


Clode is the 3rd best Flyers forward in team history.

I already posted the source that Giroux agreed to expand his list of teams if Fletcher would re-sign him. More than once.

Clarke is the root of all this team's problems.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I already posted the source that Giroux agreed to expand his list of teams if Fletcher would re-sign him. More than once.

Clarke is the root of all this team's problems.

Thought you mean an actually trade Chuck turned down.

Clarke is not why this team and organization have sucked for a decade plus.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Giroux is 35 on a 3yr/$20M contract. Which would have been foolish for the Flyers to match, especially since they're stuck with JVR for a year.

They got good value for him, even with multiple suitors, they wouldn't have garnered much more, there were zero rumors of anyone offering an "A" prospect, because Giroux wasn't that kind of asset. He was a 34 year old rental who had scored at less than 2.0 pp/60 at 5x5 the last two seasons - he wasn't Eichel at 25, or Stone at 28 or . . .

RIsto is the one bad move, TDA was a good gamble, Ellis was a good gamble (gave up two marginal players), Atkinson, especially with Torts on board, is a better fit, and so on.

So all the whining comes down to the Risto deal. People may not like Hayes, but when healthy he is a 2C, not a marginal 1C (i.e. 30-40th best center), but in the 40-50 range - middle of the pack for 2Cs.

5x5 scoring the last 3 years:
Hayes 1.75 pp/60 [2017-2019, 3 years when he was 100%, 1.95]

Trocheck 1.91
Roslovic 1.86
Bennett 1.86
Kreider 1.85
Paveliski 1.84
Guorde 1.84
Schenn 1.84
Necas 1.81
Laughton 1.79
Eichel 1.77
Erikkson Ek 1.77
Backlund 1.76
Chytil 1.76
Eller 1.76
Kopitar 1.73
Dubois 1.69
Carter 1.67
NGH 1.65
Stastny 1.64
Suzuki 1.62
Staal 1.62
J Hughes 1.62
Horvat 1.60

Giroux on Ottawa's contract is easily superior to TDA and Deslauriers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Thought you mean an actually trade Chuck turned down.

Clarke is not why this team and organization have sucked for a decade plus.

Yes he is. Clarke is the reason Homer was GM. And Hextall. And Fletcher. He has been allowed to set organizational values for years, which is bad because he's a massive loser. Management is flooded with Clarke's friends and family.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Giroux is 35 on a 3yr/$20M contract. Which would have been foolish for the Flyers to match, especially since they're stuck with JVR for a year.

I’m one of the only non-Chuck haters on the board, & I would have ripped him had he extended Giroux for 3 yrs/$19.5M.

In no world did extending a player who turns 35 this season for 3 years at a $6.5M cap hit make sense for this Flyers team.

Would have been an idiotic move. Trading him was the only option. Unfortunately Giroux forced his way to one team.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Giroux is 35 on a 3yr/$20M contract. Which would have been foolish for the Flyers to match, especially since they're stuck with JVR for a year.

They got good value for him, even with multiple suitors, they wouldn't have garnered much more, there were zero rumors of anyone offering an "A" prospect, because Giroux wasn't that kind of asset. He was a 34 year old rental who had scored at less than 2.0 pp/60 at 5x5 the last two seasons - he wasn't Eichel at 25, or Stone at 28 or . . .

RIsto is the one bad move, TDA was a good gamble, Ellis was a good gamble (gave up two marginal players), Atkinson, especially with Torts on board, is a better fit, and so on.

So all the whining comes down to the Risto deal. People may not like Hayes, but when healthy he is a 2C, not a marginal 1C (i.e. 30-40th best center), but in the 40-50 range - middle of the pack for 2Cs.

5x5 scoring the last 3 years:
Hayes 1.75 pp/60 [2017-2019, 3 years when he was 100%, 1.95]

Trocheck 1.91
Roslovic 1.86
Bennett 1.86
Kreider 1.85
Paveliski 1.84
Guorde 1.84
Schenn 1.84
Necas 1.81
Laughton 1.79
Eichel 1.77
Erikkson Ek 1.77
Backlund 1.76
Chytil 1.76
Eller 1.76
Kopitar 1.73
Dubois 1.69
Carter 1.67
NGH 1.65
Stastny 1.64
Suzuki 1.62
Staal 1.62
J Hughes 1.62
Horvat 1.60

I get what you're trying to say here, but at the same time, Giroux makes 650k less AAV than Hayes for one less year. I'd be more than fine making that swap despite the age difference.

The other, bigger problem is that when you're talking about Kevin Hayes, there's 2018-19 and there's the rest of his career. Off the top of my head, 2018-19 Hayes was arguably a top 20 Forward that year. The question was always repeatability. It's the exact same issue with timing a career year that created Voracek's contract, just with a lower ceiling.

I personally tend to give a little more cushion to GMs who re-sign that guy as opposed to trading a ****ing draft pick for his UFA rights after the season AND giving him a huge AAV AND giving him huge term. I do recognize that's a separate issue, though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m one of the only non-Chuck haters on the board, & I would have ripped him had he extended Giroux for 3 yrs/$19.5M.

In no world did extending a player who turns 35 this season for 3 years at a $6.5M cap hit make sense for this Flyers team.

Would have been an idiotic move. Trading him was the only option. Unfortunately Giroux forced his way to one team.

Actually no, Fletcher forced his way to one team. Giroux was willing to increase his list. But apparently Fletcher couldn't handle a player trying to deal with him like that. He's too feeble and fragile, and so the team is worse off now.

 

[WIP CALLER]

what do they call the cup for team with the most fights /hits ?..

i forget...

The Rinaldo Cup

 

[deadhead]

I get what you're trying to say here, but at the same time, Giroux makes 650k less AAV than Hayes for one less year. I'd be more than fine making that swap despite the age difference.

The other, bigger problem is that when you're talking about Kevin Hayes, there's 2018-19 and there's the rest of his career. Off the top of my head, 2018-19 Hayes was arguably a top 20 Forward that year. The question was always repeatability. It's the exact same issue with timing a career year that created Voracek's contract, just with a lower ceiling.

I personally tend to give a little more cushion to GMs who re-sign that guy as opposed to trading a ****ing draft pick for his UFA rights after the season AND giving him a huge AAV AND giving him huge term. I do recognize that's a separate issue, though.

I'm wary of signing a player off his peak season, but there were extenuating circumstances, they knew Patrick was damaged goods, Holmgren/Scott had established a bias for action (the half-assed rebuild was over), and the only centers available were Hayes, Duchene and Pavelski at 35 (and unlikely to sign with an East Coast team).

Hayes struggled his first year here, came out like gang busters his second season before he was injured, and finished strong once he got healthy, But that three year average from 2017-19 is probably closer to his "norm" than the last three years - both include his "off" first year as a Flyer, which balances out his peak season. Even if you split the difference, 1.85 pp/60 would put him toward the high end of 2C range.

Was he overpaid? Sure. Still a better deal than what St Louis gave to retain Schenn.
Pre-COVID contracts were mostly overpays post-COVID, look at Voracek at $8.25M, or JVR at $7M.

I would take 30 year old Hayes at 100% over 35 year old Giroux at center without hesitation - G is a much better player at wing than center these days, he's a complementary player, but he's not the player he was a decade age when he was a top center. Hayes when healthy can drive play, he's good at zone entry and puck possession even if he's an average playmaker.

I am curious to see how Torts interacts with Hayes, Torts will probably push him to focus more and improve his play without the puck, which is where Hayes needs to improve.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Holmgren is not GM of the team, nor is he micromanaging anything.

You also can't have it both ways by insisting the Flyers under Fletcher are well managed and are comparable to the likes of Colorado, while also claiming Holmgren is a puppet master driving the team into the dirt due to mismanagement. Doesn't compute.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yes he is. Clarke is the reason Homer was GM. And Hextall. And Fletcher. He has been allowed to set organizational values for years, which is bad because he's a massive loser. Management is flooded with Clarke's friends and family.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Thanks for your opinion.

This is actually easily verified fact.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

The Rinaldo Cup

the Zac-atak...

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Actually no, Fletcher forced his way to one team. Giroux was willing to increase his list. But apparently Fletcher couldn't handle a player trying to deal with him like that. He's too feeble and fragile, and so the team is worse off now.

Too funny. Never gets old in any way. He was willing if Chuck felated him. Why do you always leave that part out?

I'm wary of signing a player off his peak season, but there were extenuating circumstances, they knew Patrick was damaged goods, Holmgren/Scott had established a bias for action (the half-assed rebuild was over), and the only centers available were Hayes, Duchene and Pavelski at 35 (and unlikely to sign with an East Coast team).

Hayes struggled his first year here, came out like gang busters his second season before he was injured, and finished strong once he got healthy, But that three year average from 2017-19 is probably closer to his "norm" than the last three years - both include his "off" first year as a Flyer, which balances out his peak season. Even if you split the difference, 1.85 pp/60 would put him toward the high end of 2C range.

Was he overpaid? Sure. Still a better deal than what St Louis gave to retain Schenn.
Pre-COVID contracts were mostly overpays post-COVID, look at Voracek at $8.25M, or JVR at $7M.

I would take 30 year old Hayes at 100% over 35 year old Giroux at center without hesitation - G is a much better player at wing than center these days, he's a complementary player, but he's not the player he was a decade age when he was a top center. Hayes when healthy can drive play, he's good at zone entry and puck possession even if he's an average playmaker.

I am curious to see how Torts interacts with Hayes, Torts will probably push him to focus more and improve his play without the puck, which is where Hayes needs to improve.

I am not sure why peeps think these 2 re gonna clash. Time will tell.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Too funny. Never gets old in any way. He was willing if Chuck felated him. Why do you always leave that part out?

So Fletcher let his ego get in the way of making the best move for the team?

Yep. Very Clarkeish. Your defense of Fletcher makes him look worse.