Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVII: What An Ugly Number

[Beef Invictus]

Meltzer says Clarke is not and has not been involved in any way in a very long time. Offers opinions when asked. I suppose he could be lying though , being a corporate shill right?

Barber and Lombardi are the only 2 involved according to him.

Meltzer has long gone out of his way to defend those guys. Clarke himself disagrees. We have his own admissions.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Meltzer has long gone out of his way to defend those guys. Clarke himself disagrees. We have his own admissions.

I don’t know what to believe there, but will say this.

Say Clarke, and Holmgren supported a full rebuild. Were vocal about it. Think for a second the team would be on its current course?

They support this nonsense through, and through. Clarke went out of his way to defend a dogshit scouting department. He very much cares about protecting the boys club.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don’t know what to believe there, but will say this.

Say Clarke, and Holmgren supported a full rebuild. Were vocal about it. Think for a second the team would be on its current course?

They support this nonsense through, and through. Clarke went out of his way to defend a dogshit scouting department. He very much cares about protecting the boys club.

This is why it's pointless to have hope for Briere too. If Briere thought any differently from the Clarke Management Tree then he wouldn't have his goofy job.

 

[FlyerNutter]

This is why it's pointless to have hope for Briere too. If Briere thought any differently from the Clarke Management Tree then he wouldn't have his goofy job.

Briere lol. Organizations were just pounding down the door for him. Not sure who believes that nonsense. He’s been apparently right beside Fletcher, and Flahr for acquiring Ristolainen, extending him. Trading Giroux. Hiring Torts, signing ND. Going into the season relying on Hart to play what, 65 games with a suspect backup. Drafting Gauthier over Jiricek. This perpetual retool.

The list can keep going, but he’s either too stupid to see the flawed process, believes in it, or what’s more than likely he knows it’s smart to not rock the boat.

He’s a bootlicker, nothing more. He’s going to grow a pair when he’s promoted, and actually be an architect of meaningful change across different departments?

I call BS.

 

[Tripod]

Meltzer has long gone out of his way to defend those guys. Clarke himself disagrees. We have his own admissions.

It's as if people forget that it was just 8 months ago when Clarke went off blaming everything on Hextall. And now we are to believe he has no input? Where was Barber speaking out about ANYTHING with the Flyers....good or bad?

No one who follows this team would believe Barber is heavily involved in things, yet Clarke is a silent bystander.

 

[deadhead]

Here is reality.

The Flyers are not rebuilding, tearing things down, etc... You don't hire Torts, trade for and sign ADA, trade for and sign Risto, sign Deslauriers for 4 years.

So in his attempt to be better, those are the moves he decided to make. Top Flyers PPG Giroux was sitting on a platter to come back, Fletch said no. Top 3 scorer Gaudreau wanted to come here, Fletch said no.

It's hard to find offensive top line players. Instead, he chose to spend the assets to acquire and cap space on Risto, ADA and Deslauriers.

But don't worry, Torts is gonna fix everything. All we need is a 40 point improvement to become a playoff team.

Of course, you just contradicted yourself. If they're in win now mode, they find a way to sign JG and/or bring back Giroux. Instead they have JVR on a one year deal. Which is a better fit if they're rebuilding (easier to move at the TDL if they're out of the playoffs).

A better explanation is the one I gave, Scott wasn't ready to give up on being competitive even in the spring, so they wanted to retain Risto because of his "playoff potential." Then reality set in after the team continued to struggle.

TDA was not that expensive in terms of assets (no 1st, $5M for a top 4 D-man isn't a big deal), the issue is whether he'll lose it again or has he grown up? But he has a lot of upside potential, it's not easy finding elite offensive defenseman. Maybe he commits to improving his defense and you hit the jackpot. Those are the gambles that rebuildling teams make.

Deslauriers isn't a big deal, the cost of burying his contract in a couple years (see Weise) is about $750K.

I think Charlie hit it on the nail, they're trying to rebuild while remaining competitive, so they bring in a Dino but one with a track record of turning around young teams, they trade secondary assets for players but retain all their 1st rd picks and top prospects going forward. It's unlikely they succeed, but it also means that converting to a full rebuild won't be difficult (few championship teams were build around 2nd and 3rd rd picks).

 

[TCTC]

Of course, you just contradicted yourself. If they're in win now mode, they find a way to sign JG and/or bring back Giroux. Instead they have JVR on a one year deal. Which is a better fit if they're rebuilding (easier to move at the TDL if they're out of the playoffs).

A better explanation is the one I gave, Scott wasn't ready to give up on being competitive even in the spring, so they wanted to retain Risto because of his "playoff potential." Then reality set in after the team continued to struggle.

TDA was not that expensive in terms of assets (no 1st, $5M for a top 4 D-man isn't a big deal), the issue is whether he'll lose it again or has he grown up? But he has a lot of upside potential, it's not easy finding elite offensive defenseman. Maybe he commits to improving his defense and you hit the jackpot. Those are the gambles that rebuildling teams make.

Deslauriers isn't a big deal, the cost of burying his contract in a couple years (see Weise) is about $750K.

I think Charlie hit it on the nail, they're trying to rebuild while remaining competitive, so they bring in a Dino but one with a track record of turning around young teams, they trade secondary assets for players but retain all their 1st rd picks and top prospects going forward. It's unlikely they succeed, but it also means that converting to a full rebuild won't be difficult (few championship teams were build around 2nd and 3rd rd picks).

So, it's basically the Hextall era all over again except with a real coach this time and no cap space. One would think they learned their lesson.

You always blame Scott, but I think it's more likely that it's Fletcher trying to replicate what Hextall did because he has no vision.

 

[TheKingPin]

*not fact checked just thought was funny

Could the yotes do any worse in Atlanta? I believe the gladiators are in Augusta even.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

It's as if people forget that it was just 8 months ago when Clarke went off blaming everything on Hextall. And now we are to believe he has no input? Where was Barber speaking out about ANYTHING with the Flyers....good or bad?

No one who follows this team would believe Barber is heavily involved in things, yet Clarke is a silent bystander.

Blamed Hextall? Oh that interview about his career where in the last minute he was asked a question and answered it. Such blame.

Well Barber and Clarke are 2 totally diff people Clarke has zero filter and will speak his mind.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Of course, you just contradicted yourself. If they're in win now mode, they find a way to sign JG and/or bring back Giroux. Instead they have JVR on a one year deal. Which is a better fit if they're rebuilding (easier to move at the TDL if they're out of the playoffs).

A better explanation is the one I gave, Scott wasn't ready to give up on being competitive even in the spring, so they wanted to retain Risto because of his "playoff potential." Then reality set in after the team continued to struggle.

TDA was not that expensive in terms of assets (no 1st, $5M for a top 4 D-man isn't a big deal), the issue is whether he'll lose it again or has he grown up? But he has a lot of upside potential, it's not easy finding elite offensive defenseman. Maybe he commits to improving his defense and you hit the jackpot. Those are the gambles that rebuildling teams make.

Deslauriers isn't a big deal, the cost of burying his contract in a couple years (see Weise) is about $750K.

I think Charlie hit it on the nail, they're trying to rebuild while remaining competitive, so they bring in a Dino but one with a track record of turning around young teams, they trade secondary assets for players but retain all their 1st rd picks and top prospects going forward. It's unlikely they succeed, but it also means that converting to a full rebuild won't be difficult (few championship teams were build around 2nd and 3rd rd picks).

His playoff potential. You have made my day at 7:23 AM.

They are doing it half ass like the prior GM. Even worse actually as Hextall at least didn't give up much. There will be no full rebuild.

They born to lose and destined to fail - Mike Ness

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Here is reality.

The Flyers are not rebuilding, tearing things down, etc... You don't hire Torts, trade for and sign ADA, trade for and sign Risto, sign Deslauriers for 4 years.

So in his attempt to be better, those are the moves he decided to make. Top Flyers PPG Giroux was sitting on a platter to come back, Fletch said no. Top 3 scorer Gaudreau wanted to come here, Fletch said no.

It's hard to find offensive top line players. Instead, he chose to spend the assets to acquire and cap space on Risto, ADA and Deslauriers.

But don't worry, Torts is gonna fix everything. All we need is a 40 point improvement to become a playoff team.

What I would really like to know is how Chuck came to the decision to sign TDA and Nic D over JG. Told anyone that would listen they do not have elite talent. They need elite talent. One is there for the taking and only cost cash.

They had the means to sign JG he he went in another direction. JG probably takes a little less to boot to come home.

There is just no plan or direction. Just hope "we" can be better. How Scott sits back and thinks this is ok is one thing I cant comprehend. Didn't work with the last GM it wont work now, it is worse.

 

[TCTC]

What I would really like to know is how Chuck came to the decision to sign TDA and Nic D over JG. Told anyone that would listen they do not have elite talent. They need elite talent. One is there for the taking and only cost cash.

They had the means to sign JG he he went in another direction. JG probably takes a little less to boot to come home.

There is just no plan or direction. Just hope "we" can be better. How Scott sits back and thinks this is ok is one thing I cant comprehend. Didn't work with the last GM it wont work now, it is worse.

He wanted that "top pair" RHD. So instead of a bad defense we now have a mediocre defense and still no elite talent.
Fletcher backed himself into a corner with the Ristolainen contract. 5 million for a 2nd pair defenseman and we still needed a top pair D.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He wanted that "top pair" RHD. So instead of a bad defense we now have a mediocre defense and still no elite talent.
Fletcher backed himself into a corner with the Ristolainen contract. 5 million for a 2nd pair defenseman and we still needed a top pair D.

It's actually completely possible the defense is still bad.

 

[TCTC]

It's actually completely possible the defense is still bad.

We have the depth now at least. But the quality is questionable. Provorov is a low-end 1D, DeAngelo is a very low-end 2D, Ristolainen is a low end 4D. Only Sanheim's probably a high-end 3D.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We have the depth now at least. But the quality is questionable. Provorov is a low-end 1D, DeAngelo is a very low-end 2D, Ristolainen is a low end 4D. Only Sanheim's probably a high-end 3D.

Provorov isn't a 1D, Ristolainen is a 6 on a good day. TDA is more like a 4 or 5 with the degree he needs to be carried. Sanheim is definitely more than a 3D at least.

 

[TCTC]

Provorov isn't a 1D, Ristolainen is a 6 on a good day. TDA is more like a 4 or 5 with the degree he needs to be carried. Sanheim is definitely more than a 3D at least.

Meh, those are their spots on the team, so that's what I'm going to refer to. At the end of the day they're all mediocre. We'd need an entire top pair to make this a championship worthy defense.

 

[Flyerfan18]

Here is reality.

The Flyers are not rebuilding, tearing things down, etc... You don't hire Torts, trade for and sign ADA, trade for and sign Risto, sign Deslauriers for 4 years.

So in his attempt to be better, those are the moves he decided to make. Top Flyers PPG Giroux was sitting on a platter to come back, Fletch said no. Top 3 scorer Gaudreau wanted to come here, Fletch said no.

It's hard to find offensive top line players. Instead, he chose to spend the assets to acquire and cap space on Risto, ADA and Deslauriers.

But don't worry, Torts is gonna fix everything. All we need is a 40 point improvement to become a playoff team.

Giroux was going home to raise his family. Pretty clear now he wasn’t coming back

 

[deadhead]

What I would really like to know is how Chuck came to the decision to sign TDA and Nic D over JG. Told anyone that would listen they do not have elite talent. They need elite talent. One is there for the taking and only cost cash.

They had the means to sign JG he he went in another direction. JG probably takes a little less to boot to come home.

There is just no plan or direction. Just hope "we" can be better. How Scott sits back and thinks this is ok is one thing I cant comprehend. Didn't work with the last GM it wont work now, it is worse.

Fletcher is doing this for the same reason Hextall did this - the FO simply won't bite the bullet.

I doubt Hextall really wanted to sign JVR, but he was under pressure to win now after they unexpectedly made the playoffs in 2017-18.

I think Fletcher is sincere about wanting top talent under 25, but he's been under pressure to win now since he arrived, but he's managed to trade only one 1st rd pick and got one back, and no top prospects (Patrick and Myers were damaged goods). Which is both why things are muddled, but also why things aren't nearly as bad as they could be.

The good thing about hiring Torts is he won't pull punches and with that contract (and paying AV) they can't fire him.
So if he goes into Scott's office after the season and says "blow it up," Scott will have to listen.

 

[Flyerfan18]

This is why it's pointless to have hope for Briere too. If Briere thought any differently from the Clarke Management Tree then he wouldn't have his goofy job.

Wouldn’t matter who we hired. You would go on being negative.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Fletcher is doing this for the same reason Hextall did this - the FO simply won't bite the bullet.

I doubt Hextall really wanted to sign JVR, but he was under pressure to win now after they unexpectedly made the playoffs in 2017-18.

I think Fletcher is sincere about wanting top talent under 25, but he's been under pressure to win now since he arrived, but he's managed to trade only one 1st rd pick and got one back, and no top prospects (Patrick and Myers were damaged goods). Which is both why things are muddled, but also why things aren't nearly as bad as they could be.

The good thing about hiring Torts is he won't pull punches and with that contract (and paying AV) they can't fire him.
So if he goes into Scott's office after the season and says "blow it up," Scott will have to listen.

This is correct in my opinion, except Fletcher will be fired at or before the end of the season if they aren’t at least competitive.

Scott’s feeling his own pressure from above to turn the team around fast, so blowing it up / tanking will never be an option.

Whoever is GM has to straddle the line of being competitive & improving while also rebuilding.

 

[Rebels57]

It's actually completely possible the defense is still bad.

More like probable.

Their top 4 defensemen consists of 3 guys that suck in their own zone.

We have the depth now at least. But the quality is questionable. Provorov is a low-end 1D, DeAngelo is a very low-end 2D, Ristolainen is a low end 4D. Only Sanheim's probably a high-end 3D.

Provorov hasn't been a low-end 1D since 2018. He was better the 2nd half of his rookie season than he was in both 20-21 and 21-22. Kind of all comes back to the notion that the Flyers ruin players. He's a 2nd pair dman on a good team.

DeAngelo is hot garbage in his own zone. He's what people thought Ghost was. Also a low-end #4 that was carried by Slavin to respectable tandem results last season.

Risto is a below replacement level player which essentially makes him a 6/7.

Sanheim is the actual low-end 1D and you have him labeled as a 3D. Lmao.

 

[TCTC]

More like probable.

Their top 4 defensemen consists of 3 guys that suck in their own zone.



Provorov hasn't been a low-end 1D since 2018. He was better the 2nd half of his rookie season than he was in both 20-21 and 21-22. Kind of all comes back to the notion that the Flyers ruin players. He's a 2nd pair dman on a good team.

DeAngelo is hot garbage in his own zone. He's what people thought Ghost was. Also a low-end #4 that was carried by Slavin to respectable tandem results last season.

Risto is a below replacement level player which essentially makes him a 6/7.

Sanheim is the actual low-end 1D and you have him labeled as a 3D. Lmao.

I didn't label anyone. I just went by their spots on the team. You can switch Sanheim and Provorov if it makes you feel better. Point is, none of these players would be on the top pair on a contender.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Fletcher is doing this for the same reason Hextall did this - the FO simply won't bite the bullet.

I doubt Hextall really wanted to sign JVR, but he was under pressure to win now after they unexpectedly made the playoffs in 2017-18.

I think Fletcher is sincere about wanting top talent under 25, but he's been under pressure to win now since he arrived, but he's managed to trade only one 1st rd pick and got one back, and no top prospects (Patrick and Myers were damaged goods). Which is both why things are muddled, but also why things aren't nearly as bad as they could be.

The good thing about hiring Torts is he won't pull punches and with that contract (and paying AV) they can't fire him.
So if he goes into Scott's office after the season and says "blow it up," Scott will have to listen.

Please stop with the front office won't do it nonsense. I do not buy it at all. Fletcher is a bad GM. He is sincere. So what. His actions speak and his actions suck.

Even if it is the front office then Chuck is a bigger bag of shit for showing no backbone and says we will do it my way. Then what? They fire him all while he gets paid.

Clarke and Holmgren always loved the name shinny new toys. If they were "running" things JG would have been signed, sealed, and delivered.

Hextall 100% wanted JVR.

 

[Rebels57]

I didn't label anyone. I just went by their spots on the team. You can switch Sanheim and Provorov if it makes you feel better. Point is, none of these players would be on the top pair on a contender.

Gotcha - I misunderstood

 

[Curufinwe]

I didn't label anyone. I just went by their spots on the team. You can switch Sanheim and Provorov if it makes you feel better. Point is, none of these players would be on the top pair on a contender.

You could put Sanheim with Makar in Colorado and they'd be just as good.