Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVII: What An Ugly Number

[Beef Invictus]

He hasn't lived up to the Flyers fans hype. Going be fun watching him sink or swim.

I pegged him as a middle six center, so he's right on track for my expectations so far.

 

[Magua]

When you can snag a 20-30 point winger with a "skate straight, shoot first, ask questions later" mentality ...when trading the 3rd best forward in franchise history, you just can't pass that up.

What if I told you he’s the key to unlocking the potential of every top prospect? That he elevates everyone’s game?

 

[Rebels57]

What if I told you he’s the key to unlocking the potential of every top prospect? That he elevates everyone’s game?

I would suspect that one or two of the certified knuckleheads in the dungeons of Igor Silent have insinuated that audacious claim during their daily Fletcher knob-polishing sessions.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah what were thinking with Frost? Post draft:

2nd in OHL in scoring, 4th in PPG
4TH in OHL in scoring, 2nd in PPG was only .01 behind Robertson
Led LV in PPG, 2ND in points....almost the same PPG as Robertson in Ahl
Got hurt and missed a year
Led LV IN PPG, everyone was shit in NHL....top scorer had 52 pts.

The Frost disappointment is severely overstated. Everything was looking great until he got hurt and missed a year. His only bad season on the ice was last year in the NHL when not one player actually had a good year..

Yes this next year is important for him. Unfortunately this team lacks players who drive offense where kids can lean on. And given the 4th line is about to supply no offense, even more pressure will be on everyone else to produce.

Hopefully if they play together, the kid line catches magic and they all go on to great careers.

 

[Magua]

Yeah what were thinking with Frost? Post draft:

2nd in OHL in scoring, 4th in PPG
4TH in OHL in scoring, 2nd in PPG was only .01 behind Robertson
Led LV in PPG, 2ND in points....almost the same PPG as Robertson in Ahl
Got hurt and missed a year
Led LV IN PPG, everyone was shit in NHL....top scorer had 52 pts.

The Frost disappointment is severely overstated. Everything was looking great until he got hurt and missed a year. His only bad season on the ice was last year in the NHL when not one player actually had a good year..

Yes this next year is important for him. Unfortunately this team lacks players who drive offense where kids can lean on. And given the 4th line is about to supply no offense, even more pressure will be on everyone else to produce.

Hopefully if they play together, the kid line catches magic and they all go on to great careers.

You forgot when he led the WJC in points/game and resembled Kimmo Timonen.

It comes from a place of deep dishonesty, so best to ignore it.

 

[Flyerfan18]

When you can snag a 20-30 point winger with a "skate straight, shoot first, ask questions later" mentality ...when trading the 3rd best forward in franchise history, you just can't pass that up.

Well when that franchise player only gives you one trade option you don’t have a choice in the matter now do you?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yeah what were thinking with Frost? Post draft:

2nd in OHL in scoring, 4th in PPG
4TH in OHL in scoring, 2nd in PPG was only .01 behind Robertson
Led LV in PPG, 2ND in points....almost the same PPG as Robertson in Ahl
Got hurt and missed a year
Led LV IN PPG, everyone was shit in NHL....top scorer had 52 pts.

The Frost disappointment is severely overstated. Everything was looking great until he got hurt and missed a year. His only bad season on the ice was last year in the NHL when not one player actually had a good year..

Yes this next year is important for him. Unfortunately this team lacks players who drive offense where kids can lean on. And given the 4th line is about to supply no offense, even more pressure will be on everyone else to produce.

Hopefully if they play together, the kid line catches magic and they all go on to great careers.

Hell, after throwing something when I heard the trade announced, I talked myself into liking it, figuring they must really see something special in Frost.

And through the end of his junior career, he put up big numbers & I was in on the hype.

But so far it hasn’t translated to the pros.

OH WHAT DISHONESTY!

 

[Flyerfan18]

i dont understand how anyone can rank a young player just coming into nhl and playing only ever for a team as shit as the Flyers..

godam Mcjesus couldnt look good here..

put a player like Frost on a legit nhl team and id bet hes a way better player instantly..

Ya he would be. Because he’d be in the AHL

 

[Beef Invictus]

What if I told you he’s the key to unlocking the potential of every top prospect? That he elevates everyone’s game?

Not his own play though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well when that franchise player only gives you one trade option you don’t have a choice in the matter now do you?

He didn't do that. He let Fletcher have the ability to create more options, and Fletcher refused to accept that.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Weird. That thing is being done again.

Attention is a hell of a drug.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Gotta like how the revisionist history is Frost wasn’t expected to be more than a typical 27th overall pick.

Then why would you trade a soon-to-be 26-yr-old former 5th overall pick coming off 59 & 55 point seasons (Schenn) for:

- A guy you don’t expect to ever be as good
- A first rd. pick expected to be in the same range next season
- And absorbing Jori Lehtera’s horrendous $4.7M cap hit for two seasons (which is mostly what the 2nd 1st was for)

???

If the Flyers didn’t expect more out of Frost than an average 27th pick, then it goes down as one of the stupidest trades in history.

But the fact is they expected much more out of Frost (just like they expected TK would be better than the typical 24th pick & so traded up for him), & Hextall himself said Frost wasn’t your ordinary 27th pick & that’s why he made the trade.

Hell, after throwing something when I heard the trade announced, I talked myself into liking it, figuring they must really see something special in Frost.

And through the end of his junior career, he put up big numbers & I was in on the hype.

But so far it hasn’t translated to the pros.

I’m not completely giving up, though. I’m hoping for a breakout. 40 points. I got beat on (ironically by past Frost fanboys) for saying that, but interestingly Meltzer said the same thing recently.

If Frost doesn’t step up this season, at age 23, having 77 NHL games under his belt, closing in on 2 yrs from his shoulder injury, and with a gaping lineup opportunity, then I’ll write him off.

But I’m heading into the season trying to be optimistic. He’s one of a number of players capable of a leap.

How many lineups by posters had him as the 2nd line centers over the last few years?

I haven't written him off though I have zero expectations at this point.

When you can snag a 20-30 point winger with a "skate straight, shoot first, ask questions later" mentality ...when trading the 3rd best forward in franchise history, you just can't pass that up.

Do you know what other players Chuck was offered in that deal as I do not recall seeing any names he potentially could have chosen.

 

[Tripod]

Interesting that Frost's most common 3 Dmen and most common 3 forwards, all have a higher CF WITH Frost, than without.

Jvr, Tippet and TK
Sanheim, Provy and Risto

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He didn't do that. He let Fletcher have the ability to create more options, and Fletcher refused to accept that.

At the end of the day did he say I will only accept a trade to Florida or is that fiction?

Fletcher refused to cave to his demands and give him a hand shake extension. Why do you have a hard time accepting this?

 

[deadhead]

They weren't getting a much better deal from Colorado, who had taken Newhook and Byram off the table.
So we're talking a 2023 1st that's likely in the late 20s and Barron? Instead of a 2024 1st that might be much higher and Tippett.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They weren't getting a much better deal from Colorado, who had taken Newhook and Byram off the table.
So we're talking a 2023 1st that's likely in the late 20s and Barron? Instead of a 2024 1st that might be much higher and Tippett.

Was it ever said what teams he would have accepted a trade to?

 

[Beef Invictus]

At the end of the day did he say I will only accept a trade to Florida or is that fiction?

Fletcher refused to cave to his demands and give him a hand shake extension. Why do you have a hard time accepting this?

Fletcher refused to expand his options and make the best deal possible to improve the team. Normal day at work for him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They weren't getting a much better deal from Colorado, who had taken Newhook and Byram off the table.
So we're talking a 2023 1st that's likely in the late 20s and Barron? Instead of a 2024 1st that might be much higher and Tippett.

I mean, Fletcher probably loses the trade no matter who it's with because that's all he ever does. To get a good return we'd have needed a different GM.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Fletcher refused to expand his options and make the best deal possible to improve the team. Normal day at work for him.

He only wanted 1 team. That was his choice. You can try to distort that all you want.

As you say, a strawman argument.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He only wanted 1 team. That was his choice. You can try to distort that all you want.

As you say, a strawman argument.

He was willing to expand his list to more than one team. Fletcher didn't want to do that. Fletcher is shit-trash.

Stating reported facts isn't a strawman argument.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Fletcher gets bent over if Giroux goes to another team instead. Because that’s what Fletcher does. Suck badly at his job

 

[Striiker]

I still cannot figure out why Anaheim doesn't adopt the Wildwing logo full-time.

Their current logo might be the worst in all of sports. Their jersey template is ass too.

Interested in seeing that Sharks Oakland Seals mash-up

The logo is so great that it’s actually the first hat I ever bought of a non-Philly sports team.

This one below, which is apparently a special collab you can only buy from some Swedish website.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He was willing to expand his list to more than one team. Fletcher didn't want to do that. Fletcher is shit-trash.

Stating reported facts isn't a strawman argument.

You are confused and wrong. He didn't want to cave in to his ext demand. Big diff. Keep spinning.

 

[deadhead]

I mean, Fletcher probably loses the trade no matter who it's with because that's all he ever does. To get a good return we'd have needed a different GM.

The parameters off the trade were well established by previous trades. A 1st, a "B" prospect, another asset.
Giroux wasn't nearly as valuable as Stone, for example.
People just had ridiculous expectations of what he could garner.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You are confused and wrong. He didn't want to cave in to his ext demand. Big diff. Keep spinning.

Ah, so he didn't want to expand the list of available teams, maximize his options, and maximize value. Yes. I know. That's what I've been saying. I'm aware. Glad we agree on what happened. You're the only one spinning here, what with your attempts to pretend that Fletcher rejecting an offer to get substantially more value isn't wholly his fault.

Truly, what a burden Giroux laid on him by giving him the option to have a still-excellent Giroux in addition to whoever he was traded for. How inconsiderate.

The parameters off the trade were well established by previous trades. A 1st, a "B" prospect, another asset.
Giroux wasn't nearly as valuable as Stone, for example.
People just had ridiculous expectations of what he could garner.

The parameters of prior trades are how we can tell the Giroux trade was such an L for Fletcher