Proposal: Minnesota - Ottawa Blockbuster

[eviohh26]

Please quote me where I said hits are the only qualification for a power forward.

I’ll wait.

The point isn’t that hits make a power forward, obviously. I’d never qualify a guy like Clutterbuck as a power forward. But physical play, including fighting, are key to earning that label. Taking the puck to the net and protecting it with your body aren’t nearly enough. Otherwise guys like Bobby Ryan, Radek Bonk, or Alexei Yashin would be considered power forwards. They’re not.

Brady Tkachuk checks every power forward box.

Boldy does not. Do you disagree that Boldy is not a power forward?

JT Miller is considered a Power Forward and he isn't overly physical . He plays hard and lays a good hit time to time. He doesn't fight really.

 

[Bileur]

JT Miller is considered a Power Forward and he isn't overly physical . He plays hard and lays a good hit time to time. He doesn't fight really.

JT Miller was 24th in hits league wide this season. He has been at least top 3 on the canucks every year since he joined the team .

He had four fights just last season. That’s a lot of a first line forward.

It’s true that someone people are ok with calling guys power forwards even without fights though particularly with fighting losing popularity. Physical play is a must though.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Please quote me where I said hits are the only qualification for a power forward.

I’ll wait.

The point isn’t that hits make a power forward, obviously. I’d never qualify a guy like Clutterbuck as a power forward. But physical play, including fighting, are key to earning that label. Taking the puck to the net and protecting it with your body aren’t nearly enough. Otherwise guys like Bobby Ryan, Radek Bonk, or Alexei Yashin would be considered power forwards. They’re not.

Brady Tkachuk checks every power forward box.

Boldy does not. Do you disagree that Boldy is not a power forward?

I think you’re just molding whatever fits to make it seem like Tkachuk is a power forward while Boldy is not. You downplayed his ability to shield the puck with his size and put emphasis on hits, which clearly Boldy doesn’t do a lot. Personally, I don’t care if Boldy is labeled a power forward or not. He can be just as effective without needing to take himself out of the play for a hit or to fight a fight he doesn’t need to or whatever else. Tkachuk is not granted bonus value or called a better player because he’s a power forward. Kaprizov is substantially better than Tkachuk and nobody is calling him a power forward. Just a different skillset.

I think we are going to find out fairly soon that Boldy will be a better point producer than Tkachuk. Which, combined with Boldy’s contract, will make him more valuable in the long run IMO. I do appreciate Tkachuk’s ability to be physical. He’s exactly the type of player the Wild should be looking to add on top of Kaprizov/Ek/Boldy/Yurov/Ohgren. If he ever asks out of Ottawa, Minnesota should come offering a substantial package of picks and prospects IMO. But we can save that conversation for if it actually happens.

 

[BagHead]

This powerforward conversation seems a lot like anything else that people try to neatly categorize where there's huge gray areas that aren't so easily defined, and the definitions in those cases end up being on a person-by-person basis

Boldy is a powerforward if your requirements are simply that a guy should be a little bigger than average and shield the puck well with his body. Tkatchuk is a powerforward if your definition simply is a guy who plays a physically punishing game while also being able to score. Some people would combine both and claim neither Boldy nor Tkatchuk are powerforwards.

The truth of the matter is that neither one of you is wrong because the definition of the term is so nebulous that it's undefinable. It's an "I know it when I see it" level of precision, so why do either of you care about winning an argument that is unwinnable?

The most rigorous place I could find a definition that wasn't just conversations between people was Wikipedia (that should say something), and even that says it's "loosely applied".

 

[57special]

According to NHL stats, his net penalties over the last three seasons is +4. So it doesn't really matter how many penalties he draws, he's only given his team 4 more PP's than PK's in the last three seasons. That's tied for 251st best in the league in that time. So the whole argument of he draws more than he takes, technically yeah, but it's negligible. He's not really helping his team in that regard, he's just neutral.

I'm kind of turned on by your stat finding abilities

 

[Golden_Jet]

This powerforward conversation seems a lot like anything else that people try to neatly categorize where there's huge gray areas that aren't so easily defined, and the definitions in those cases end up being on a person-by-person basis

Boldy is a powerforward if your requirements are simply that a guy should be a little bigger than average and shield the puck well with his body. Tkatchuk is a powerforward if your definition simply is a guy who plays a physically punishing game while also being able to score. Some people would combine both and claim neither Boldy nor Tkatchuk are powerforwards.

The truth of the matter is that neither one of you is wrong because the definition of the term is so nebulous that it's undefinable. It's an "I know it when I see it" level of precision, so why do either of you care about winning an argument that is unwinnable?

The most rigorous place I could find a definition that wasn't just conversations between people was Wikipedia (that should say something), and even that says it's "loosely applied".

It’s been defined for 30 years, just the newbies are trying to redefine it, to include their softer style players,
Hit hard, physical, compete, score goals, hard to move off puck are all traits.

There are very few true PF in the league anymore.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

This powerforward conversation seems a lot like anything else that people try to neatly categorize where there's huge gray areas that aren't so easily defined, and the definitions in those cases end up being on a person-by-person basis

Boldy is a powerforward if your requirements are simply that a guy should be a little bigger than average and shield the puck well with his body. Tkatchuk is a powerforward if your definition simply is a guy who plays a physically punishing game while also being able to score. Some people would combine both and claim neither Boldy nor Tkatchuk are powerforwards.

The truth of the matter is that neither one of you is wrong because the definition of the term is so nebulous that it's undefinable. It's an "I know it when I see it" level of precision, so why do either of you care about winning an argument that is unwinnable?

The most rigorous place I could find a definition that wasn't just conversations between people was Wikipedia (that should say something), and even that says it's "loosely applied".

Brady is literally a combination of those things lol, what are you saying. Brady’s not bigger than average and doesnt shield the puck with his body?

Some wild attempts at equivocation in this thread

 

[BagHead]

It’s been defined for 30 years, just the newbies are trying to redefine it, to include their softer style players,
Hit hard, physical, compete, score goals, hard to move off puck are all traits.

There are very few true PF in the league anymore.

That's your definition of it, unless you can point me to the dictionary its in. The only dictionary definition I can find is about basketball players, and it says:

a basketball forward whose size and strength are used primarily in controlling play near the basket

If we want to use the definition of it for hockey, then I guess digitalbooya is right, Boldy has size and controls play near the net with it, so he's a powerforward.

Brady is literally a combination of those things lol, what are you saying. Brady’s not bigger than average and doesnt shield the puck with his body?

Some wild attempts at equivocation in this thread

That's not what I said. I said that the term powerforward isn't clearly defined and changes depending on who you're talking to. I purposely didn't say what my own thoughts were so as not to dilute that message. My own thoughts are that Boldy is not a PF, and Tkatchuk is, but that's based on MY OWN definition of it.

 

[Satanphonehome]

Given the age of so many Wild players and the talent on their prospect list, the Wild are better off with Boldy’s contract and relative age.

this is a team with just 2 key players in their prime. Their window is not now.

Minny says no.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Minny says no.

Too late Ottawa hung up the phone ages ago.

 

[Fatass]

Given the age of so many Wild players and the talent on their prospect list, the Wild are better off with Boldy’s contract and relative age.

this is a team with just 2 key players in their prime. Their window is not now.

Minny says no.

No to Brady Tkatchuk with the contract he has?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

No to Brady Tkatchuk with the contract he has?

Correct.

 

[Fatass]

Correct.

Imo Minny would jump on that trade.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Imo Minny would jump on that trade.

I'm just saying what I think. I don't want to pretend to know what Guerin would do. I'd be wrong most times in that case.

Boldy is younger, cheaper and signed for longer. I'm counting on him taking a jump in his game as many players do ~23/24 years old, and I don't hugely value the physical stuff that Brady excels at. That's where I'm coming from.

 

[Digitalbooya]

That's your definition of it, unless you can point me to the dictionary its in. The only dictionary definition I can find is about basketball players, and it says:

If we want to use the definition of it for hockey, then I guess digitalbooya is right, Boldy has size and controls play near the net with it, so he's a powerforward.


That's not what I said. I said that the term powerforward isn't clearly defined and changes depending on who you're talking to. I purposely didn't say what my own thoughts were so as not to dilute that message. My own thoughts are that Boldy is not a PF, and Tkatchuk is, but that's based on MY OWN definition of it.

I wouldn’t call Boldy a power forward. He’s just a big bodied skill forward that uses his size when he needs to. I don’t need him to fight or aggressively throw hits, so it’s no skin off my back if he is called a power forward or not. I don’t think it truly matters either way. It’s just a phrase that people are using to try and artificially raise their player’s value when it simply does not (see my Kaprizov vs Tkachuk example). That’s the part I’m taking issue with.

 

[Golden_Jet]

That's your definition of it, unless you can point me to the dictionary its in. The only dictionary definition I can find is about basketball players, and it says:

If we want to use the definition of it for hockey, then I guess digitalbooya is right, Boldy has size and controls play near the net with it, so he's a powerforward.


That's not what I said. I said that the term powerforward isn't clearly defined and changes depending on who you're talking to. I purposely didn't say what my own thoughts were so as not to dilute that message. My own thoughts are that Boldy is not a PF, and Tkatchuk is, but that's based on MY OWN definition of it.

I’m using what has been used across the league for decades.
I don’t need Webster’s dictionary

 

[Digitalbooya]

I’m using what has been used across the league for decades.
I don’t need Webster’s dictionary

Nobody cares. It doesn’t make Tkachuk a better player to be labeled a power forward.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Nobody cares. It doesn’t make Tkachuk a better player to be labeled a power forward.

No it’s just a term the league uses, like 2-way player, offensive D-man.

 

[BagHead]

I’m using what has been used across the league for decades.
I don’t need Webster’s dictionary

Yeah... exactly what I said, it's an "I know it when I see it" way of defining things. You're using examples of past players who were called "powerforward" and extending it onto current players rather than using a precise definition.

Are you arguing against what I'm saying or agreeing with it? I'm honestly not sure because the tone I'm reading in your statement and emoji seems to be arguing against it, but your words are actually making my point.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah... exactly what I said, it's an "I know it when I see it" way of defining things. You're using examples of past players who were called "powerforward" and extending it onto current players rather than using a precise definition.

Are you arguing against what I'm saying or agreeing with it? I'm honestly not sure because the tone I'm reading in your statement and emoji seems to be arguing against it, but your words are actually making my point.

You said,
Boldy is a powerforward if your requirements are simply that a guy should be a little bigger than average and shield the puck well with his body. Tkatchuk is a powerforward if your definition simply is a guy who plays a physically punishing game while also being able to score. Some people would combine both and claim neither Boldy nor Tkatchuk are powerforwards.

yes it is both, and also willingness to drop the mitts, and Brady meets all the bolded.
The requirements haven’t changed, it’s just fans trying to squeeze their guy into a PF.
Those are just PF “light”, they don’t meet all of the above, they just do some of them.

 

[BagHead]

You said,
Boldy is a powerforward if your requirements are simply that a guy should be a little bigger than average and shield the puck well with his body. Tkatchuk is a powerforward if your definition simply is a guy who plays a physically punishing game while also being able to score. Some people would combine both and claim neither Boldy nor Tkatchuk are powerforwards.

yes it is both, and also willingness to drop the mitts, and Brady meets all the bolded.
The requirements haven’t changed, it’s just fans trying to squeeze their guy into a PF.
Those are just PF “light”, they don’t meet all of the above, they just do some of them.

I also said I do consider Tkatchuk a powerforward by my own reckoning of what the term means, so I'm not sure why you're pointing that part out to me. That's the thing we agree on most.

I've made my point about the term and why it's a little ridiculous to get upset about its usage, already. If you're not going to take anything from that, there's nothing I can do to change it, and that's fine.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I also said I do consider Tkatchuk a powerforward by my own reckoning of what the term means, so I'm not sure why you're pointing that part out to me. That's the thing we agree on most.

Ahh ok wasn’t clear what your reckoning was, if you were including everything that’s been listed or not. Maybe I missed that part.

As you said, some will consider…. but wasn’t sure where you were on that, like I said maybe I missed it.

 

[Bileur]

I think you’re just molding whatever fits to make it seem like Tkachuk is a power forward while Boldy is not.

I posted in this thread in response to someone trying to suggest a guy with ~30 hits and a guy with ~300 hits are equivalent.

There is a massive difference there. Tkachuk is the definition of power forward. I don’t know why it’s so hard to admit that.

You downplayed his ability to shield the puck with his size and put emphasis on hits, which clearly Boldy doesn’t do a lot.

lol. I didn’t do that at all.

Like I said, Alexei Yashin was great at protecting the puck with his body. He still wasn’t a power forward. That doesn’t downplay protecting the puck with your body. It just means it’s not enough.

Personally, I don’t care if Boldy is labeled a power forward or not. He can be just as effective without needing to take himself out of the play for a hit or to fight a fight he doesn’t need to or whatever else. Tkachuk is not granted bonus value or called a better player because he’s a power forward. Kaprizov is substantially better than Tkachuk and nobody is calling him a power forward. Just a different skillset.

Yep. Power forward doesn’t mean better forward. Not sure what you’re arguing against as nobody suggested that.

That said, all things being equal, Tkachuk is absolutely given bonus value because of his physical play. He’s one of the most physical players in the league while producing as a first liner. That has significant value. Same way a forward who brings elite defense to match his offense would have bonus value.

There’s a reason teams are salivating over his availability and it isn’t only his points.

I think we are going to find out fairly soon that Boldy will be a better point producer than Tkachuk. Which, combined with Boldy’s contract, will make him more valuable in the long run IMO. I do appreciate Tkachuk’s ability to be physical. He’s exactly the type of player the Wild should be looking to add on top of Kaprizov/Ek/Boldy/Yurov/Ohgren. If he ever asks out of Ottawa, Minnesota should come offering a substantial package of picks and prospects IMO. But we can save that conversation for if it actually happens.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Boldy was more productive down the line but people have been underestimating Brady his whole career, I’d bet he keeps surprising.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

This is going to be hated but whatever...

to Ottawa Senators
Boldy (6y @ $7.0000m)
Gustavsson (2y @ $3.7500m)
[ retain 25% $1.0m Korpisalo ]
2024 MIN 2nd Round Pick
TOTAL CAP = $11.7500m

to Minnesota Wild
Tkachuk (4y @ $8.2058m)
Korpisalo 25% retained (4y @ $3.0000m)
2024 OTT 4th Round Pick
TOTAL CAP = $11.2058m

 

[Golden_Jet]

This is going to be hated but whatever...

to Ottawa Senators
Boldy (6y @ $7.0000m)
Gustavsson (2y @ $3.7500m)
[ retain 25% $1.0m Korpisalo ]
2024 MIN 2nd Round Pick
TOTAL CAP = $11.7500m

to Minnesota Wild
Tkachuk (4y @ $8.2058m)
Korpisalo 25% retained (4y @ $3.0000m)
2024 OTT 4th Round Pick
TOTAL CAP = $11.2058m

Ottawa passes, they’re building with Brady.