Proposal: Min - Edm

[PatrikOverAuston]

According to some EDM fans, they've got 3 franchise C's. The overrating of Klefbom and Sekera is rampant, and until he crashed at the end of the year, Nurse was an untouchable. Hall, a top 3 winger, aparrently. Davidson, a top 4 Dman.

And you mock MN fans for their lack of achievement in the playoffs. Coming from an EDM fan, that's rich.

Unless you can tag me with all of those, your "look in the mirror" comment isn't really relevant. I know you can't handle criticism of your fanbase, but at least try and understand why such comments arise. This thread is rife with examples and trying to avoid that isn't helping you.

 

[NotYou]

Yeah, value-wise it's pretty much right on. But I turn it down in our current situation. I'm not ready to hand Dumba the spot as our best RHD and with Staal on board, our top 3 centers are set. Haula is a big wildcard this year, and I wouldn't want to relegate him to the 4th line without seeing if the his last 40 games last year is at least somewhat close to what his normal is going to be going forward.

Yep, that's fair. I'd probably do it because, despite what suter thinks, the evidence suggests he plays about as well with brodin as with spurg. I also really like dumba and think he can be a decent #4 by the end of this year if forced into the role. And the wheels could fall off our old forwards at any time. I wouldn't be too upset if we took a small step back this year to set ourselves up for the future.

I'm sure Fletcher disagrees with the last part which is why I highly doubt spurgeon is dealt for anything but overpayment. I'm fine with that too

 

[Roof Daddy]

Glass houses...


Anyway, this Wild fan's thoughts;

Spurgeon = RNH... Maybe slight add for Spurgeon( 2nd?) because of the in demand position he plays( RHD), better year vs. RNH's, and slightly better contract. I would think that EDM would be thrilled with this deal, as Spurgeon is a perfect fit for them. I also think that the Wild can recover from his loss, as Brodin has proven in the past that he can pair well with Suter, and we have enough depth on the backend as is if only one of Reilly, Folin, Dumba, or Olofsson step up. I'm not thrilled with RNH, but would be interested to see what he could do with Parise on one wing and Coyle on the other. There is no doubt that the Wild can use help at the forward position, although ( yes, again) The Staal signing makes getting a C somewhat redundant.

Dumba + Haula = RNH. In a vacuum, yes. Once salaries are considered, no. Wild can't take on 3M extra in cap. Part of Haula's value is his extremely low salary compared to RNH's. RNH is not 6 times better than Haula, but he is paid 6 times as much. This matters, to a team like MN. Dumba's value is partly based on speculation. He is high risk, high reward. There are many Wild fans who see enough in him to not want to trade him for RNH straight up. I am not one of them, but there certainly is a possibility that trading Dumba could come back to haunt us like Burns and Leddy, two offensive Dmen who were inconsistent in their own end.

And so I'll revisit something I proposed a little while ago...

To MIN: Nuge, 2017 1st

To EDM: Spurgeon, Haula

I agree with your evaluation that Spurgeon requires a bit more than Nuge based on value of position and the better season last year. We need a replacement C for Nuge, and Haula certainly fits the bill. The 1st - with the roster improvements - is probably 15-20 range.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Yep, that's fair. I'd probably do it because, despite what suter thinks, the evidence suggests he plays about as well with brodin as with spurg. I also really like dumba and think he can be a decent #4 by the end of this year if forced into the role. And the wheels could fall off our old forwards at any time. I wouldn't be too upset if we took a small step back this year to set ourselves up for the future.

I'm sure Fletcher disagrees with the last part which is why I highly doubt spurgeon is dealt for anything but overpayment. I'm fine with that too

I'd love to see those numbers. His numbers with Brodin are still fine, but they aren't in the tier they are with Spurgeon.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Yep, that's fair. I'd probably do it because, despite what suter thinks, the evidence suggests he plays about as well with brodin as with spurg. I also really like dumba and think he can be a decent #4 by the end of this year if forced into the role. And the wheels could fall off our old forwards at any time. I wouldn't be too upset if we took a small step back this year to set ourselves up for the future.

I'm sure Fletcher disagrees with the last part which is why I highly doubt spurgeon is dealt for anything but overpayment. I'm fine with that too

Whatever happens, if it does, I hope it's next June, when we have another year of evaluation of Dumba, Brodin, Haula and RNH.

Glass almost full, but if Haula hits 40+ points in a 3rd line role, Dumba goes something like 15+25 and Brodin rebounds to the 20-30 point range with continuing very good defense, I'd question how necessary RNH would be at the expense of (possibly) two of those players. Especially with both Ek and Kunin in the system. Of course, neither are guaranteed to be on RNH's level, but require zero outgoing assets to find out.

 

[gwh]

And so I'll revisit something I proposed a little while ago...

To MIN: Nuge, 2017 1st

To EDM: Spurgeon, Haula

We dont need centers anymore. The Nuge train has luckily left the building, and we avoided it.

 

[Homesick]

According to some EDM fans, they've got 3 franchise C's. The overrating of Klefbom and Sekera is rampant, and until he crashed at the end of the year, Nurse was an untouchable. Hall, a top 3 winger, aparrently. Davidson, a top 4 Dman.

And you mock MN fans for their lack of achievement in the playoffs. Coming from an EDM fan, that's rich.

Quote one post that supports this statement or any of the other pile of crap you just spewed out.

I've also witnessed the massive overrating of Brodin, Dumba, Scandella, and Spurgeon.

Now a 24 year old Zucker and 25 year old Haula(who are both bottom 6 players at best) still have upside but 23 year old Nugent-Hopkins has plateaued

Edmonton will keep their only experienced top 6 centre and the Wild can keep all their top pairing defenseman

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

And so I'll revisit something I proposed a little while ago...

To MIN: Nuge, 2017 1st

To EDM: Spurgeon, Haula

I agree with your evaluation that Spurgeon requires a bit more than Nuge based on value of position and the better season last year. We need a replacement C for Nuge, and Haula certainly fits the bill. The 1st - with the roster improvements - is probably 15-20 range.

I think that's something to re-revisit in about 10 months. Haula is just too much of a wildcard for me right now. I don't think his last 40 games was an aberration. Maybe he's not a 60+ point player, but he's shown very good offense at every level and that now includes the NHL. 40+ points with his speed and PK ability is incredibly valuable, especially for someone whose next contract should still be manageable no matter what happens this year.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

And so I'll revisit something I proposed a little while ago...

To MIN: Nuge, 2017 1st

To EDM: Spurgeon, Haula

I agree with your evaluation that Spurgeon requires a bit more than Nuge based on value of position and the better season last year. We need a replacement C for Nuge, and Haula certainly fits the bill. The 1st - with the roster improvements - is probably 15-20 range.

Fletcher should sprint to the phone to say yes to this.

 

[DANOZ28]

does edm really need haula or zucker thrown into the trade? i didnt think they had a bunch of open roster spots. even though lucic is a quality vet presence that will help their team im not convinced losing their leader in hall will be easy to recover from. larsson seems like more of a defensive D man so i think in the future they will still be looking for that offensive D man like dumba.

 

[Wabit]

I'd love to see those numbers. His numbers with Brodin are still fine, but they aren't in the tier they are with Spurgeon.

Which 5v5 numbers with Spurgeon are in a different tier?
Last 3 years stats 5v5:
G: 5,1,4
A: 20, 25, 24
P: 25, 26, 28
CF%: 47.9, 50.9, 50.0
FF%: 47.9, 51.6, 51.2
PDO: 102.5, 99.8, 100.3

The only numbers that are really different are the PP points (Brodin shouldn't get PP time), and the CF/FF% rel. I'm discounting the %rel stats because Scandella/Spurgeon is a better second pair than the combo of Brodin (Scandella)/Dumba that they tried.

Brodin numbers 5v5 dropped from the year before. That's to be expected, switching to left side dman, playing with a lesser partner (Suter >>>> Dumba/Prosser).

Spurgeon's 5v5 number also dropped to roughly the numbers Brodin had the year before.

 

[BagHead]

Great news for you then: RNH is 23, and thus three years from this line in the sand you've drawn. Meanwhile, he is absolutely a better NHL player today than either of Dumba or Haula and there is no debate.

Here's the flaw with your thinking: a player who goes from 5 to 10 to 20 points is not a bet to double his production every single year, thereby making them a 200-point scorer by their tenth season. As you noted, players have a brief window of time in which they improve year-over-year and then settle into a holding pattern from there on out.

Lets take, for example, Haula. You just stated that "some scorers get better as they get closer to 30, but they're the exception to the rule". Haula is 25- older than RNH- so it's a good bet that whatever point total he amasses this year is about it for the window from 26-30. You can deny that, but then you're either claiming he's one of these exceptions to the rule- in which case you'd have to prove it- or your own guideline is wrong.

Well it's a great thing you offer your own rebuttal to this line of thinking right below:

So again, you've noticed a pattern, but Wild fans are exempt from it. Why you ask?

Ah, because in THIS case- and not any other, just this one, involving Minnesota Wild fans assessing Minnesota Wild players- it would be (re: might) be detrimental. How convenient.

Once again, you ascribe the maximum potential possible to the Wild assets (i.e. "2nd line center" "1st pairing defenseman") but refuse to acknowledge a) the likelihood of that occurring b) RNH's ceiling above what he's already shown. In other words, you again fall victim to the very Hockey's Future bias you claimed didn't apply.



Right, because he plays for Edmonton and not in the Twin Cities. That's entirely what you base your assessments off of and not a thing else, and all of your posts have made that abundantly clear.

I never made an argument that Haula is better than RNH, nor that he would keep doubling his production, nor that he would ever be as good as RNH. He was a late bloomer that has shown that he is still improving, and therefore I said it would be wise to hold onto him until we know what he actually is. I think it is likely that by the end of this season, we'll know what that is, yes. Dumba is also improving, and does have the youth and trajectory to be a potentially better player than RNH.

My point was actually that Wild fans are valuing the potential over the proven product, but then I went on to state that we're not just valuing it because of the HF bias toward potential. I stated that in this case there is a burned hand reaction going on, thanks to the relative recency of the Leddy trade, and I can also understand why people would be hesitant to trade Dumba, given that he could become better than RNH. Not only do we not want to give up a player that could be the best player in a trade and then add yet another player to it, but especially not when both players are potentially top6/top pairing players in exchange for a non-elite center.

As for RNH reaching his potential, I am allowing his potential into the equation, it's just clear that I don't think it's as high as you do. IMO he's in the same boat as Zucker. This last season I saw such wild inconsistency with Zucker that he's in a put-up or shut-up situation with me. RNH is in that same situation for me. He has been a 55 point center for so long that it's become a trend. I don't see "elite" in his future, until he proves it. Which means that the Wild, who need an "elite" center, should not trade for him if it costs that much. That said, I would probably be grudgingly ok with Dumba and Zucker. Just not Dumba and Haula.

And just to be clear, my logic isn't about the Wild, it's the same logic every team in the league follows (except when a GM is on the hot-seat) when evaluating trade potential, and the logic that all their fans follow. Nearly everyone in the world is risk-averse, and tends to stick with what they've got, because they value what they have over what they could have. So yes, RNH is objectively the best player in a Dumba+Haula deal right now, but I am so not certain that he will be in 3 years that I wouldn't do it. If you lower the value to a player that isn't a possible long-term center for us (in other words, not Haula, Granlund, or Coyle) then maybe I reconsider.

And in response to that last little question of yours, what other posts have I made that make that clear? I hadn't posted in this thread before. Are you even aware of other people, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? If you're going to try trashing me, at least make sure there's trash to throw me in, first.

And so I'll revisit something I proposed a little while ago...

To MIN: Nuge, 2017 1st

To EDM: Spurgeon, Haula

I agree with your evaluation that Spurgeon requires a bit more than Nuge based on value of position and the better season last year. We need a replacement C for Nuge, and Haula certainly fits the bill. The 1st - with the roster improvements - is probably 15-20 range.

Tempting. Last off-season I would have done that, but now we have Spurg locked up long term on a decent contract and we just signed Staal. For me, that'd be a soft pass but if the Wild did it, I wouldn't be upset. Not excited either, but not upset.

 

[Marlowe Syn]

The OP's article he posted lost cred with me right away when they cited Zucker as a center. He's a left wing with some RW versatility. Never seem him lineup at center once. Not even when he played at Denver U. I think any ideas of a RNH to Minnesota trade ended the moment we signed Eric Staal. Old rumor that I don't think has any legs.

I honestly can't say anything about Oiler circa Pouliot, but when he was with the Wild he was a bust. Even if his play has improved, which wouldn't surprise me, he still isn't worth acquiring with his contract. Especially since he would be at best our #3LW, with Parise, Granlund and even Nino on the left. Nino can play right side so that is why I would have Pouliot at best #3.
Barring a great deal the only way I see zucker being moved before his contract expires is if Las Vegas snaps up the hometown boy in the expansion draft.

As far as Haula? Hahahaha... no.

 

[Mubiki]

Err:





I have been paying attention, and that's the problem.



Still doesn't make them worth Draisaitl.



You do realize you get to choose who you protect, right? You don't have to lose RNH.



I'm just gonna quote this beauty again for posterity:





Better players cost more. I'm sorry, that's just how it works.

One guy said they should return Draisaitl. One.

And yeah, I do know how good they are. And their play/potential compared to RNH, in the context of the money they make, doesn't make it appealing. RNH isn't good enough to make it worth 2 NHL players whose production could easily surpass his at 1/3 the salary.

There's a reason they wouldn't add to Dumba for RNH; he flat out isn't worth it.

 

[gwh]

One guy said they should return Draisaitl. One.

And yeah, I do know how good they are. And their play/potential compared to RNH, in the context of the money they make, doesn't make it appealing. RNH isn't good enough to make it worth 2 NHL players whose production could easily surpass his at 1/3 the salary.

There's a reason they wouldn't add to Dumba for RNH; he flat out isn't worth it.

Yea, that was me.

Drai is the only interesting possible asset in the EDM team. Everything else they can keep. Value going back is up to discussion.

And if the Dumba for RNH was Fletch offer, then Dumba+Haula+Zucker certainly isn't even same planet as the ballpark.

 

[rynryn]

So if Dumba is just a ppqb then Draisaitl is just a 2C and should be a lot cheaper to acquire than we've been led to believe. sweet.

I know why you'd trade Dumba for RNH but then again from an organizational standpoint I'm a little worried that it's the Burns trade all over again...Taking one unique item off our team and selling it to upgrade a position where we have options. Not all that attractive of options, but still have a way better chance of them panning out than we do of getting another major scoring threat into our D corp.

i'm pretty sure Haula's TOI/point isn't that far off of RNH's. You see why some people would be content to just see what happens rather than just toss him in on top of Dumba to even things out? I mean really. And for how much less money? I think we could live with the disparity.

 

[Homesick]

does edm really need haula or zucker thrown into the trade? i didnt think they had a bunch of open roster spots. even though lucic is a quality vet presence that will help their team im not convinced losing their leader in hall will be easy to recover from. larsson seems like more of a defensive D man so i think in the future they will still be looking for that offensive D man like dumba.

I'd hope a better one than Dumba that can at least play some defense. Dumba only had 8 more points than Larsson despite getting soft minutes with O zone starts and 2+ minutes of PP time per game(Larsson only had seconds)

 

[Blitzago*]

According to some EDM fans, they've got 3 franchise C's. The overrating of Klefbom and Sekera is rampant, and until he crashed at the end of the year, Nurse was an untouchable. Hall, a top 3 winger, aparrently. Davidson, a top 4 Dman.

And you mock MN fans for their lack of achievement in the playoffs. Coming from an EDM fan, that's rich.

I'll wait until you can find proof that anyone has ever said that.

I'll probably be sitting here a long time.

 

[MK9]

Andddd here we go again. So, my question still remains: if the Wild are loaded with so many valuable talents, why aren't they better than what they've shown? Why haven't they been able to trade superstar Erik Haula for that franchise center you're all after?

Have you ever asked yourself this question about the Oilers?

Probably want to look into that.

 

[rynryn]

I'd hope a better one than Dumba that can at least play some defense. Dumba only had 8 more points than Larsson despite getting soft minutes with O zone starts and 2+ minutes of PP time per game(Larsson only had seconds)

yeah lets just not mention the TOI per game at all.

shot difference...152 (dumba) vs 65, with about 500 minutes less total minutes played. I don't know why you're comparing them. Larsson could be generously considered average defensively before last season, but with experience (Stevens credited by NJD fans for his turnaround--the same Stevens who will be coaching Dumba this season) surprise surprise he is getting better. And hey, he has over 100 games of experience on Dumba. Kinda daft comparison.

 

[VainGretzky]

Keep your year in year out bubble playoff team players not interested in any of them for RNH.

 

[Draiskull]

Keep your year in year out bubble playoff team players not interested in any of them for RNH.

umm isnt Edmonton a year after year bottom feeder team?

 

[VainGretzky]

umm isnt Edmonton a year after year bottom feeder team?

Yes we are and we will stay one trading top end for crap. The problem was the had no veterans to mentor our top picks they threw them to the wolves and now some seem happy tossing them away for dime a dozen players like Zucker and Dumba who's name fits him to the tee. The team is loading up on the vets we lacked I want to see how a 23 year old 1st overall pick turns out without the entire load of the team on him. Dumba Haula no thanks man keep your average .

 

[Digitalbooya]

Spurgeon and Haula for RNH and a mystery box? Nah, I'm good. Haula isn't some throw in and I'd appreciate it if he wasn't consistently thrown in as one.

 

[DANOZ28]

Keep your year in year out bubble playoff team players not interested in any of them for RNH.

and NJ isnt a bubble team? do you really believe top teams will hand over their best offensive D men willingly? goodluck getting a stud cheap. i repeat a year from now edm will be searching for an offensive D man and few if any will be available. dumba has done a good job not playing top minutes due to our depth.