Proposal: Min - Edm

[Dampland]

Back to reasonable discussion: I'd prefer Spurgeon for RNH, but Dumba + Haula is fine.

Of course you would prefer this, it tilts heavily in Oilers favor.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Maybe you should pay attention before spouting off?

Err:

Dumba + Zucker + Haula better return Draisaitl...

Zucker already scored 20 goals in about 50 games, and has scored at a high clip in juniors, NCAA, and AHL. He admittedly had a tough year with injuries, personal issues, and getting in Yeo's doghouse, but he's not a bust like Yak, nor is he as one-dimensional as Yak.

I have been paying attention, and that's the problem.

We need them because they are cheap.

Still doesn't make them worth Draisaitl.

We don't have the luxury of trading these guys away for more expensive players that we could end up losing in the expansion draft anyway.

You do realize you get to choose who you protect, right? You don't have to lose RNH.

We know exactly how good they are.

I'm just gonna quote this beauty again for posterity:

Dumba + Zucker + Haula better return Draisaitl...

And in Dumba's case particularly, how much potential is there. Nobody thinks they're untouchable; but they do know that RNH isn't as big an upgrade as he should be for the salary difference in the trades being proposed.

Better players cost more. I'm sorry, that's just how it works.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Of course you would prefer this, it tilts heavily in Oilers favor.

Andddd here we go again. So, my question still remains: if the Wild are loaded with so many valuable talents, why aren't they better than what they've shown? Why haven't they been able to trade superstar Erik Haula for that franchise center you're all after?

 

[Draiskull]

In all fairness, anyone trading for Dumba would be doing so in the hope that he becomes a more rounded player and can be used as a powerplay point man and at worst a 2nd pairing regular strength guy. It's not like its Mark Fayne with a hard shot we are asking about.

Fayne with a hard shot >> Dumba

Not sure what you guys are expecting Dumba to become.. He is Schultz defensively and take away his PP points and he isnt much offensively.

 

[DANOZ28]

PLEASE KEEP POOOOLiout out of a Minnesota jersey forever. The Wild gave him enough chances already in the past. Would much rather have Zucker anyway.

A-men brother! mn is a pouliot free zone.

 

[NotYou]

Of course you would prefer this, it tilts heavily in Oilers favor.

It really doesn't. Spurgeon's around the 20th to 25th best RHD in the league. RNH is around the 20th to 25th best center in the league. Spurgeon's contract is slightly better, but it's fairly close. RNH probably has some untapped potential that may or may not come to fruition.

Total homer post.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Oilers young players = will reach ceiling for sure.

Wild young players = have already peaked for sure.

This is the problem with these threads.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Oilers young players = will reach ceiling for sure.

If by "ceiling" you mean proven production (i.e. RNH, 50 points) then sure. Why wouldn't we assume a player with multiple seasons at a certain level is apt to repeat that, while also having a bit more potential on top of that depending on age?

Wild young players = have already peaked for sure.

This is the problem with these threads.

The problem is that Wild fans in these threads always assume a Dumba or Haula will absolutely, 100% be more than they are, or will even repeat what they've done only once.

I mean, look at this again:

Zucker already scored 20 goals in about 50 games, and has scored at a high clip in juniors, NCAA, and AHL. He admittedly had a tough year with injuries, personal issues, and getting in Yeo's doghouse, but he's not a bust like Yak, nor is he as one-dimensional as Yak.

Yakupov is younger and has broken 30 points twice in his career. Zucker's never done it, and his best year is just a touch above Yak's worst. However, we have Yakupov being called a "bust". Why shouldn't Zucker qualify as one if that's the standard? Why does he have more value?

This is where these discussions go off the rails, not anywhere else.

 

[Draiskull]

If by "ceiling" you mean proven production (i.e. RNH, 50 points) then sure. Why wouldn't we assume a player with multiple seasons at a certain level is apt to repeat that, while also having a bit more potential on top of that depending on age?

.

funny part is that RNH is only a year older than Dumba and has apparently already reached his ceiling.

 

[nickschultzfan]

If by "ceiling" you mean proven production (i.e. RNH, 50 points) then sure. Why wouldn't we assume a player with multiple seasons at a certain level is apt to repeat that, while also having a bit more potential on top of that depending on age?



The problem is that Wild fans in these threads always assume a Dumba or Haula will absolutely, 100% be more than they are, or will even repeat what they've done only once.

I mean, look at this again:



Yakupov is younger and has broken 30 points twice in his career. Zucker's never done it, and his best year is just a touch above Yak's worst. However, we have Yakupov being called a "bust". Why shouldn't Zucker qualify as one if that's the standard? Why does he have more value?

This is where these discussions go off the rails, not anywhere else.

Trends matter. As do his spots on a contender.

Yak is a bust because he hasn't improved in 4 years and there is now a legitimate question as to his hockey IQ or his ability to ever play passable defense. If he doesn't improve, there is no roster spot for him on a contender.

RNH is a great young player who is already a solid top-6 center. He has plateau but his hockey IQ suggests he still has good upside. Needs to improve is faceoffs though to have a impact role on a contender.

Dumba has improved every season in the Wild organization, both offensively and defensively. I, like others, question the true value of an "offensive" defenseman, but must recognize that Dumba continues to grow as a player and I believe is the youngest of the players in question. He would already be an established bottom-pairing, PP specialist on a contender, with upside to grow into a top-4, 1st PP triggerman as soon as next season.

Zucker had improved every season in the Wild organization until 15/16. Yes, there are some excuses, but yes he needs to spring back, as two bad seasons do make a trend. However, his two-way game has continued to improve, allowing him to fit anywhere in the top-9.

 

[Uberdachen]

Andddd here we go again. So, my question still remains: if the Wild are loaded with so many valuable talents, why aren't they better than what they've shown?

Here's the thing with the argument you're making: If your reasoning is found to have merit, you make Edmonton's side weaker than that of its partner, whoever that is, throughout history.

 

[nickschultzfan]

funny part is that RNH is only a year older than Dumba and has apparently already reached his ceiling.

I agree with disagreeing many Wild fans who say RNH has peaked. That is ridiculous.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

It really doesn't. Spurgeon's around the 20th to 25th best RHD in the league. RNH is around the 20th to 25th best center in the league. Spurgeon's contract is slightly better, but it's fairly close. RNH probably has some untapped potential that may or may not come to fruition.

Total homer post.

Yeah, value-wise it's pretty much right on. But I turn it down in our current situation. I'm not ready to hand Dumba the spot as our best RHD and with Staal on board, our top 3 centers are set. Haula is a big wildcard this year, and I wouldn't want to relegate him to the 4th line without seeing if the his last 40 games last year is at least somewhat close to what his normal is going to be going forward.

 

[Wabit]

Yakupov is younger and has broken 30 points twice in his career. Zucker's never done it, and his best year is just a touch above Yak's worst. However, we have Yakupov being called a "bust". Why shouldn't Zucker qualify as one if that's the standard? Why does he have more value?

Yak is a "bust" because he was #1OA. Zucker is a #59OA and mid-6 wing. Swap the draft positions and Zucker would be the bust, and Yak not.

I see Zucker and Yak as about equal value right now. Trade them 1 for 1 and who wins that trade? (Guessing each fanbase will say the other team)

 

[ManofSteel55]

Fayne with a hard shot >> Dumba

Not sure what you guys are expecting Dumba to become.. He is Schultz defensively and take away his PP points and he isnt much offensively.

I'm not a huge Dumba fan either, but he isn't Schultz bad defensively, and is young enough that he still has plenty of time to stabalize and improve his game in all areas.

 

[BagHead]

I agree with disagreeing many Wild fans who say RNH has peaked. That is ridiculous.

I wouldn't dare say he's peaked, yet. I would say he's plateaued. If he hits 26 years old without any increase in his scoring, then I'd say he's probably peaked. Some scorers get better as they get closer to 30, but they're the exception to the rule.

I think Wild fans view an RNH for Dumba+Haula deal as bad because, as of the end of last season, we've seen that Haula is a pretty good 3rd line center and looks like he may have 2nd line upside, and both Dumba and Haula have shown actual development every year, rather than plateauing. Therefore, asking for two players who have been trending upward, one of whom may end up better than the single piece coming from Edmonton, looks unreasonable to us.
Part of that is "Hockey's Future" bias, where potential sometimes get skewed as greater value than the proven commodity, but in this case, we realize it would be extremely detrimental if Haula and Dumba reach their potential. If they did, it would be a 2nd line center and a 1st pairing right handed offensive defenseman for a non-elite first line center. That's just a risk I don't think the Wild (and especially Chuck Fletcher) can afford to take, especially after the Leddy fiasco.

And I say RNH is a non-elite first line center in that paragraph above, because I don't think he's got the potential to be one, anymore. I hope for Edmonton's sake that he can surprise me, though.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Trends matter.

Right- trends over a period of time. One season is not a trend, as much as your fanbase seems to wish it was so.

As do his spots on a contender.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins = proven top six center. Jason Zucker = third line winger at best today. Erik Haula = 3rd line center. Which one of the Wild forwards I just mentioned are blocking RNH from playing in the top six, again?

Yak is a bust because he hasn't improved in 4 years and there is now a legitimate question as to his hockey IQ or his ability to ever play passable defense. If he doesn't improve, there is no roster spot for him on a contender.

Zucker had improved every season in the Wild organization until 15/16. Yes, there are some excuses, but yes he needs to spring back, as two bad seasons do make a trend. However, his two-way game has continued to improve, allowing him to fit anywhere in the top-9.

There are a whole bunch of buzzwords that play in Zucker's favor here, but again it's not really surprising you refuse to reference actual statistics. Keep trying to sell this narrative, though.

RNH is a great young player who is already a solid top-6 center. He has plateau but his hockey IQ suggests he still has good upside. Needs to improve is faceoffs though to have a impact role on a contender.

Wonderful, so you admit he's a proven asset. In comparison...

Dumba has improved every season in the Wild organization, both offensively and defensively. I, like others, question the true value of an "offensive" defenseman, but must recognize that Dumba continues to grow as a player and I believe is the youngest of the players in question. He would already be an established bottom-pairing, PP specialist on a contender, with upside to grow into a top-4, 1st PP triggerman as soon as next season.

So Dumba is not proven in his discipline. There's doubt he ever will be, and unlike a Jones or Larsson prior to their respective trades, he doesn't have a baseline of consistent NHL performance. As such, it's reasonable to expect the Wild to add.

Yet, we have pages upon pages of Wild fans insisting that's ridiculous- and now we have this "trend" argument that somehow paints Haula hitting 30+ points once and Zucker scoring 20 goals last year as being indicative of their actual value as though they've repeated those performances numerous times throughout their careers.

Here's the thing with the argument you're making: If your reasoning is found to have merit, you make Edmonton's side weaker than that of its partner, whoever that is, throughout history.

I'm secure enough in my fandom that I can admit a third liner is worth third line value and so on and so forth. On the other hand, Wild fans hanging onto their bizarre valuations doesn't make anyone look bad but, well, Wild fans. That's the truth of it and no contorting of logic can avoid that.

 

[Draiskull]

I'm not a huge Dumba fan either, but he isn't Schultz bad defensively, and is young enough that he still has plenty of time to stabalize and improve his game in all areas.

You stabilize when you are adjusting to higher level not when it is your normal game. Dumba was never reliable defensively in juniors and is far from a cerebral Dman. He is a high event Dman and has never been better than J.Schultz defensively and probably never will be.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

I wouldn't dare say he's peaked, yet. I would say he's plateaued. If he hits 26 years old without any increase in his scoring, then I'd say he's probably peaked. Some scorers get better as they get closer to 30, but they're the exception to the rule.

Great news for you then: RNH is 23, and thus three years from this line in the sand you've drawn. Meanwhile, he is absolutely a better NHL player today than either of Dumba or Haula and there is no debate.

I think Wild fans view an RNH for Dumba+Haula deal as bad because, as of the end of last season, we've seen that Haula is a pretty good 3rd line center and looks like he may have 2nd line upside, and both Dumba and Haula have shown actual development every year, rather than plateauing.

Here's the flaw with your thinking: a player who goes from 5 to 10 to 20 points is not a bet to double his production every single year, thereby making them a 200-point scorer by their tenth season. As you noted, players have a brief window of time in which they improve year-over-year and then settle into a holding pattern from there on out.

Lets take, for example, Haula. You just stated that "some scorers get better as they get closer to 30, but they're the exception to the rule". Haula is 25- older than RNH- so it's a good bet that whatever point total he amasses this year is about it for the window from 26-30. You can deny that, but then you're either claiming he's one of these exceptions to the rule- in which case you'd have to prove it- or your own guideline is wrong.

Therefore, asking for two players who have been trending upward, one of whom may end up better than the single piece coming from Edmonton, looks unreasonable to us.

Well it's a great thing you offer your own rebuttal to this line of thinking right below:

Part of that is "Hockey's Future" bias, where potential sometimes get skewed as greater value than the proven commodity

So again, you've noticed a pattern, but Wild fans are exempt from it. Why you ask?

but in this case, we realize it would be extremely detrimental if Haula and Dumba reach their potential.

Ah, because in THIS case- and not any other, just this one, involving Minnesota Wild fans assessing Minnesota Wild players- it would be (re: might) be detrimental. How convenient.

If they did, it would be a 2nd line center and a 1st pairing right handed offensive defenseman for a non-elite first line center. That's just a risk I don't think the Wild (and especially Chuck Fletcher) can afford to take, especially after the Leddy fiasco.

Once again, you ascribe the maximum potential possible to the Wild assets (i.e. "2nd line center" "1st pairing defenseman") but refuse to acknowledge a) the likelihood of that occurring b) RNH's ceiling above what he's already shown. In other words, you again fall victim to the very Hockey's Future bias you claimed didn't apply.

And I say RNH is a non-elite first line center in that paragraph above, because I don't think he's got the potential to be one, anymore. I hope for Edmonton's sake that he can surprise me, though.

Right, because he plays for Edmonton and not in the Twin Cities. That's entirely what you base your assessments off of and not a thing else, and all of your posts have made that abundantly clear.

 

[57special]

Andddd here we go again. So, my question still remains: if the Wild are loaded with so many valuable talents, why aren't they better than what they've shown? Why haven't they been able to trade superstar Erik Haula for that franchise center you're all after?

Glass houses...


Anyway, this Wild fan's thoughts;

Spurgeon = RNH... Maybe slight add for Spurgeon( 2nd?) because of the in demand position he plays( RHD), better year vs. RNH's, and slightly better contract. I would think that EDM would be thrilled with this deal, as Spurgeon is a perfect fit for them. I also think that the Wild can recover from his loss, as Brodin has proven in the past that he can pair well with Suter, and we have enough depth on the backend as is if only one of Reilly, Folin, Dumba, or Olofsson step up. I'm not thrilled with RNH, but would be interested to see what he could do with Parise on one wing and Coyle on the other. There is no doubt that the Wild can use help at the forward position, although ( yes, again) The Staal signing makes getting a C somewhat redundant.

Dumba + Haula = RNH. In a vacuum, yes. Once salaries are considered, no. Wild can't take on 3M extra in cap. Part of Haula's value is his extremely low salary compared to RNH's. RNH is not 6 times better than Haula, but he is paid 6 times as much. This matters, to a team like MN. Dumba's value is partly based on speculation. He is high risk, high reward. There are many Wild fans who see enough in him to not want to trade him for RNH straight up. I am not one of them, but there certainly is a possibility that trading Dumba could come back to haunt us like Burns and Leddy, two offensive Dmen who were inconsistent in their own end.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Glass houses...

How so? I can admit Yakupov is no great shakes at this point in his career. Wild fans, though, believe a statistically inferior player is better because "trends". That's the perfect microcosm of the rampant overvaluing going on in this thread by fans from the Twin Cities.

 

[57special]

How so? I can admit Yakupov is no great shakes at this point in his career. Wild fans, though, believe a statistically inferior player is better because "trends". That's the perfect microcosm of the rampant overvaluing going on in this thread by fans from the Twin Cities.

Actually, there are varying degrees of opinions about MN players by our fanbase, and varying degrees of valuing RNH. Personally, I think Haula is a very good player, far better than his stats would suggest, and would be very reluctant to give him up. He is a good third line C....he showed even more in the last half of last year, but who knows if he can keep up that level of play. He did out score Bjugstad in college every year when they were on the same team, so it's not like he has no skill.

I've seen Zucker look very good, and I've seen him look pretty bad. I think he should be valued as a third liner with scoring/speed upside. I think he has the same value as Yak. I'd prefer to keep Zucker over Yak.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Look in the mirror.

So no response of any substance. Got it.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Big ol' hell noper to the OP.

2c for ppqb. Vomitous.

 

[57special]

So no response of any substance. Got it.

According to some EDM fans, they've got 3 franchise C's. The overrating of Klefbom and Sekera is rampant, and until he crashed at the end of the year, Nurse was an untouchable. Hall, a top 3 winger, aparrently. Davidson, a top 4 Dman.

And you mock MN fans for their lack of achievement in the playoffs. Coming from an EDM fan, that's rich.