Proposal: Min - Edm

[Bryanbryoil]

I actually like Zucker, he could be a buy low candidate but Dumba as the primary asset in return for RNH is a failure for our GM.

 

[thadd]

So let's so it's Hopkins for Dumba+... what is that +? I don't see the Wild throwing in a serviceable 3rd line center and I'm not all that fond of the UFA options at the moment.

I don't see how this trade makes sense at this point.
Hudler, Rutuu and Legwand are the more notable UFA centers that are still available.
Dumba isn't good enough. The plus literally has to be better than Dumba.

Klefbom - Larsson is surely our 1st pairing, right?
Can you justify throwing Sekera on the 3rd pairing? Because he doesn't play the right stile of game to compensate for Dumba's defensive deficiencies.
Davidson-Dumba might work, but Davidson should be playing behind Sekera next year.
Klefbom could easily work well with Dumba, but I don't know how I feel about having Sekera/Larsson as a first pairing.

 

[Draiskull]

So let's so it's Hopkins for Dumba+... what is that +? I don't see the Wild throwing in a serviceable 3rd line center and I'm not all that fond of the UFA options at the moment.

I don't see how this trade makes sense at this point.
Hudler, Rutuu and Legwand are the more notable UFA centers that are still available.
Dumba isn't good enough. The plus literally has to be better than Dumba.

Klefbom - Larsson is surely our 1st pairing, right?
Can you justify throwing Sekera on the 3rd pairing? Because he doesn't play the right stile of game to compensate for Dumba's defensive deficiencies.
Davidson-Dumba might work, but Davidson should be playing behind Sekera next year.
Klefbom could easily work well with Dumba, but I don't know how I feel about having Sekera/Larsson as a first pairing.

Dumba + Brodin


Klefbom-Brodin
Sekera-Larsson
Davidson-Dumba

 

[Digitalbooya]

i'd rather not trade Dumba. Way too much risk involved in trading him. I'm not sure Fletcher is sold on RNH being the 1C we need either. And tbh, Edmonton should see what they have with McDavid-RNH-Draisaitl and finally acquiring a 1st pairing dman.

It's that simple.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Dumba + Brodin

Absolutely not.

 

[tempest2i]

Dumba + Brodin


Klefbom-Brodin
Sekera-Larsson
Davidson-Dumba

now you're thinking

 

[MessierII]

Sez who?

Wild beat writer was in Edmonton before the draft talking about how the wild have big interest in Nuge. That wasn't the first I've heard of it either.

 

[MessierII]

Yeah, as someone who's watched both, that's just flat out incorrect.

Maybe you watched Pouliot like 5 years ago I don't care. Pouliot is the superior player right now handily.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Wild beat writer was in Edmonton before the draft talking about how the wild have big interest in Nuge. That wasn't the first I've heard of it either.

Offering Dumba straight up sure as hell doesn't come across that way IMO.

 

[MK9]

now you're thinking

Not in any rational manner he isn't.

 

[57special]

Whole premise of this thread is flawed. Deal won't happen.

 

[PuckInTheNards]

Jesus... can we let this go? This trade has been rumored for more than a year and it never happens. The Wild signed Staal to keep Coyle and Granlund at wing and let Haula stay the 3C. The roster is set.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Let's make this fun:

RNH + Eberle (2 million/year retained) for Dumba+Haula+Zucker+Pominville

Lucic-McDavid-Pulj
Zucker-LD-Pominville
Pouliot-Haula-Yak/Kassian
Maroon-Letestu/Lander-Kassian/Yak

Klefbom-Larsson
Sekera-Dumba
Davidson-Fayne

 

[Digitalbooya]

Let's make this fun:

RNH + Eberle (2 million/year retained) for Dumba+Haula+Zucker+Pominville

Lucic-McDavid-Pulj
Zucker-LD-Pominville
Pouliot-Haula-Yak/Kassian
Maroon-Letestu/Lander-Kassian/Yak

Klefbom-Larsson
Sekera-Dumba
Davidson-Fayne

There are always too many moving parts when I read your proposals. Hard to get on board with that. Also, your Edm lineup has Haula and Pominville separated... Not a good idea.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

I never made an argument that Haula is better than RNH

Never said you did, but nice attempt to avoid my point.

nor that he would keep doubling his production

You are assuming there production is going to keep increasing:

...both Dumba and Haula have shown actual development every year, rather than plateauing. Therefore, asking for two players who have been trending upward...

Which, as noted, you can't possibly guarantee. Or are you going to twist that into me saying something else?

, nor that he would ever be as good as RNH.

Again, I didn't say you did- but that you won't address my points in favor of inventing things I'm arguing is duly noted.

He was a late bloomer that has shown that he is still improving, and therefore I said it would be wise to hold onto him until we know what he actually is.

But by your own rule you will know what he is by the end of this upcoming season.

Look, let me quote you back your own words again, since you seem to like avoiding your statements:

both Dumba and Haula have shown actual development every year, rather than plateauing

However, this isn't exactly true for Haula:

2013-14: 0.32 PPG
2014-15: 0.19 PPG
2015-16: 0.45 PPG

Haula's production actually took a step back the year before last. Since your own definition of "improving" is perfectly linear increases every year, Haula can't possibly fit. Either you're wrong and players don't plateau if their points don't follow a perfect curve, or you're wrong about Haula improving in a linear fashion. Either way, you're wrong.

I think it is likely that by the end of this season, we'll know what that is, yes.

So to be a 2C, Haula will need to finish with 42 points or better. No center last year above Haula in scoring played less than he did per game, and in fact no player in the 50-60th range- where a low-end 2C would be- played less than 15 minutes a night. You're not only assuming Haula repeats a one-off year, but that his TOI scales accordingly- this despite Eric Staal purportedly being signed to take some of those minutes. The odds are highly against what you're selling, but that's par for the course in these discussions.

Dumba is also improving, and does have the youth and trajectory to be a potentially better player than RNH.

Dumba is literally a year younger than RNH. How can he "potentially" be better than a player he is currently worse then and not the other way around?

This, of course, ignores the fact that Dumba's "improving" has seen his PPG stay relatively flat year-over-year. What was that you said about plateauing again?

My point was actually that Wild fans are valuing the potential over the proven product, but then I went on to state that we're not just valuing it because of the HF bias toward potential.

But you clearly are, because the facts don't support the stance. If reality isn't jiving with what you're selling, there must be another subjective factor in play.

I stated that in this case there is a burned hand reaction going on, thanks to the relative recency of the Leddy trade

No one cares. Absolutely no one cares. It doesn't impact actual on-ice performance or possible future performance in the slightest.

and I can also understand why people would be hesitant to trade Dumba, given that he could become better than RNH.

I could become a better hockey player than RNH by this logic. Facts don't support it, but it could happen, right?

Not only do we not want to give up a player that could be the best player in a trade and then add yet another player to it, but especially not when both players are potentially top6/top pairing players in exchange for a non-elite center.

"Could", "potentially" for the Wild players, guaranteed "non-elite" for the non-Wild player. Again, the usual bias.

As for RNH reaching his potential, I am allowing his potential into the equation, it's just clear that I don't think it's as high as you do. IMO he's in the same boat as Zucker. This last season I saw such wild inconsistency with Zucker that he's in a put-up or shut-up situation with me.

Yes except one of those players has been a top-six player his entire career, and the other can't stay in the lineup. But other than that, totally the same!

RNH is in that same situation for me. He has been a 55 point center for so long that it's become a trend. I don't see "elite" in his future, until he proves it.

It's weird you don't hold your own players to that same standard, but whatever.

Which means that the Wild, who need an "elite" center, should not trade for him if it costs that much.

The Wild are getting the best player in the deal today, and very likely for the next 2 years. What a terrible cost.

And just to be clear, my logic isn't about the Wild, it's the same logic every team in the league follows (except when a GM is on the hot-seat) when evaluating trade potential, and the logic that all their fans follow. Nearly everyone in the world is risk-averse, and tends to stick with what they've got, because they value what they have over what they could have.

No, not every fan is as... ahem... "risk-averse" as Wild fans, and certainly not the ones in these discussions. This is a complete and utter lack of objectivity.

I mean, after all, you do say...

So yes, RNH is objectively the best player in a Dumba+Haula deal right now

But yet the 25-year-old center and the D who is one year younger than RNH might both take meteoric jumps in development, and are better bets to do it than the better player you're trading for. Zero. Objectivity.

If you lower the value to a player that isn't a possible long-term center for us (in other words, not Haula, Granlund, or Coyle) then maybe I reconsider.

Well duh. You take out good assets and replace them with worse ones and of course you like the trade better. Groundbreaking stuff here.

If you're going to try trashing me, at least make sure there's trash to throw me in, first.

There's so much that it's been turned into a landfill and covered over with grass by this point.

 

[DANOZ28]

im sure this deal wont happen now but edm has mcdavid #1C; draisaitl #2C; why would you want to keep RNH, a #3C making 6 mill??? edm's issues are clearly D with 245GA. now maybe the addition of larsson drops that by 10. i dont think you have a bad goalie so i'd point a finger at the D. the positive is you have a very talented forward group and adding a vet like lucic was great. losing a leader like hall may take some time for your team to gel. cheers.

 

[Homesick]

im sure this deal wont happen now but edm has mcdavid #1C; draisaitl #2C; why would you want to keep RNH, a #3C making 6 mill??? edm's issues are clearly D with 245GA. now maybe the addition of larsson drops that by 10. i dont think you have a bad goalie so i'd point a finger at the D. the positive is you have a very talented forward group and adding a vet like lucic was great. losing a leader like hall may take some time for your team to gel. cheers.

Its not a bad idea to have at least one experienced centre in the top 6 and just move Draisaitl to RW or the 3c.
Dumba is definitely not the answer to the Oilers GA issues

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Its not a bad idea to have at least one experienced centre in the top 6 and just move Draisaitl to RW or the 3c.
Dumba is definitely not the answer to the Oilers GA issues

I wouldn't even necessarily mind Brodin for that reason. He offers much less offence than Larsson, but the top four would at least be ready to go from Day 1:

Sekera-Larsson
Klefbom-Brodin
Davidson-Fayne

However, I'd still expect a center coming back to fill in for RNH, and if franchise talent Erik Haula is off the table I don't see a fit.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Let's make this fun:

RNH + Eberle (2 million/year retained) for Dumba+Haula+Zucker+Pominville

Lucic-McDavid-Pulj
Zucker-LD-Pominville
Pouliot-Haula-Yak/Kassian
Maroon-Letestu/Lander-Kassian/Yak

Klefbom-Larsson
Sekera-Dumba
Davidson-Fayne

You honestly expect the Oilers to eat 1/3 of Eberle's contract? AND take Pominville?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Most teams have a Haula. The Oilers alone have three better centers, and we're a perennial dumpster fire. It's both obvious and hilarious how dramatically Wild fans in these discussions overrate their players.

That's great, so we will keep Haula. Edmonton doesn't need him and Wild fans want to keep him, so why are you getting upset over Wild fans wanting to keep Haula? (Ya know, the guy who carried our team at times)

It was sarcasm. Do not want Suters contract

Don't worry, Suter will retire in Minnesota so you'll never have to deal with it.

I wouldn't even necessarily mind Brodin for that reason. He offers much less offence than Larsson, but the top four would at least be ready to go from Day 1:

Sekera-Larsson
Klefbom-Brodin
Davidson-Fayne

However, I'd still expect a center coming back to fill in for RNH, and if franchise talent Erik Haula is off the table I don't see a fit.

Much less offense than Larsson based on one season or careers?

 

[rynryn]

Just keep him. It's patently obvious that Oiler fans see more value in him than everyone else in the league...so stop making RNH proposals. Keep him. Draisaitl could prove to be really streaky his first couple years and McDavids new so if you're interested in seriously competing just keep RNH until you're positive your top six C's are locked and able.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

That's great, so we will keep Haula. Edmonton doesn't need him and Wild fans want to keep him, so why are you getting upset over Wild fans wanting to keep Haula?

You just did it again!

(Ya know, the guy who carried our team at times)

Again, every single team has players who step up at times. Lauri Korpikoski scored a hat-trick last year. No Oilers fan had any illusions of stardom there, though. Why can't you bother to look at your roster with the same sort of realism?

Haula at 25 is what he is, most likely: a bottom-six center who can produce some offence. Pretending he is more than that is to discard any shred of objectivity.

As for why Oilers fans would like him, we'd require a THIRD LINE CENTER back to fill the role. RNH > Haula by leaps and bounds, but that doesn't erase Edmonton's need thereafter for a THIRD LINE CENTER. Haula is a THIRD LINE CENTER so it's perfect. That make sense, or do you still think we're trying to steal away a franchise-defining talent from you?

Much less offense than Larsson based on one season or careers?

Since he's been an NHL regular, Larsson has amassed 42 points in 146 games. Brodin has totaled 43 points in his last 218. It should be pretty obvious who the superior offensive player is, but I have a feeling this is going to be another one of those "Yak is a bust/Zucker is a promising young star" or "RNH has plateaued/25 year old Haula is on the rise" type things. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

 

[DANOZ28]

doesnt edm have any prospects capable of replacing a #3C? couldnt you sign sam gagner or pirri for 1 mill? just a thought. homesick , dumba doesnt solve all your problems , he would just make you better.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

doesnt edm have any prospects capable of replacing a #3C?

Not really, no. The brilliance of Steve Tambellini and Craig MacTavish at work.

couldnt you sign sam gagner or pirri for 1 mill? just a thought.

I too could suggest that the car dealership sell me a vehicle for $1 and that they tack the money they're losing onto another customer's purchase, but that probably wouldn't fly.

homesick , dumba doesnt solve all your problems , he would just make you better.

He fills a specific need. It's a hard one to address, at least from the perspective of young talent, so there's a price to be paid. However, that doesn't in any way justify Dumba for RNH straight-up, or Dumba + a vanilla winger who would be behind Nail Yakupov in the pecking order. Give us something that addresses the problem an RNH trade DOES create (re: a 3C) and you're closer.

 

[DANOZ28]

you say you could just move rnh to a wing? which wing? lines as i see them 1st lucic / mcdavid / eberle; 2nd pouliot / draisaitl / puljujarvi; 3rd maroon / RNH / yak. a 6 mill 3rd line C makes no sense to me. of coarse hes not a #3C on another team like the wild.