OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship

[RabidBadger]

So they have information that the integrity of the game has been compromised, and they are withholding it? Not exactly a good look. Can't imagine Vegas will be happy

Yeah, that tidbit has my bullshit detector hitting redline. If they thought OSU was cheating during the 2 decades they were beating UM like they owed them money, they sure as shit would have rolled over on them.

 

[ricky0034]

this sign stuff all just feels so bizarre as someone that doesn't really follow the sport and just assumed that at the very least teams in the competitive conferences were using helmet radios by now, they aren't exactly cutting edge technology, if high school teams can use them what the hell is the excuse for college teams that are raking in millions of dollars of television revenue every year?

not gonna lie though as someone that doesn't root for or against any of these teams I kinda wanna see Michigan get punished a bit just because it's borderline offensive how stupid that Stallions guy seems

 

[Konnan511]

Apparently stallions and Blake Corum had a vacuum business together lol.

Corum is stating he knows nothing about it...

Michigan RB Blake Corum denies any business link to ex-analyst Connor Stalions: 'My attorneys are on it'

Wyoming state documents emerged Tuesday linking both Stalions and Corum to an LLC based out of Ann Arbor, Michigan

www.google.com

 

[jaster]

So your of the impression everything Michigan did was legal and within the established rules?

No, the way in which Michigan stole signs is against the rules (just typing that made me laugh out loud at the ridiculousness of this whole thing), and so they should face the appropriate consequences.

The narrative around this situation is off the rails though, the comments and commentary very often suggest the sign-stealing is what Michigan did wrong. It was not, is my point. There are talking heads, and then all the parrots on-line, suggesting that what Michigan did is worse than what OSU, Rutgers, and Purdue did. In terms of how the rules are written, that is true. In terms of the "integrity" of the game, it is very much not. Michigan had a staffer hire his buddies to film the sidelines from the stands, and then went over the film for presumably hours to try to decipher it all, maybe accurately, maybe not. OSU and Rutgers played Michigan, learned their signs intimately, and then passed on all that first-hand information assessed by actual coaches (rather than, you know, a part-time staffer on a computer) on to Michigan's opponent in the conference championship game, Purdue.

If we want to talk about the NCAA's inane rules, yes, punish Michigan. If we want to talk about the actual problem in college football, other teams have done more to contribute to it than Michigan. Because it's also becoming a not-very-big-secret that certain teams share opponents signs with other teams regularly.

 

[jaster]

There is no rule against sign stealing if you are on the sideline during the game. There are rules against video recording signals and signs. It's cut and dry. Whether these are stupid rules or not is irrelevant. Michigan cheated. Michigan broke current rules. Michigan broke the current rules so blatantly, it's amazing how stupid they were while doing it.

Do i think a ban or Head Coach Firing is in order? Make it a yearly tradition to suspend Harbaugh to begin every season. Cut back on scholarships by 20-30%.

The investigation has shown that Stalions did not share with anyone (relevant, anyway) what he was up to, and Harbaugh didn't know about it. He was hired, in part, to decipher the other teams play-calling. Of his own accord, he chose to go about that in a way that broke NCAA rules. Again, according to what is known of the investigation. So, Harbaugh himself is off the hook, unless it is demonstrated that it was an activity that he should have known about. And while that is something that was recently applied to Northwestern's Pat Fitzgerald in regards to hazing, this is something different, and I seriously doubt college football is going to want to set that kind of precedent.

I doubt Michigan gets hammered too hard for this, knowing what we now know. Given that other schools, including in the Big Ten, "cheat" worse than Michigan and are allowed to do it, and that the NCAA doing something like taking away scholarships would put that reality front and center, the NCAA currently has bigger fish to fry than Michigan.

The Big Ten has more flexibility than the NCAA though, given their ambiguous "sportsmanship" policy. They will possibly be even more hard-pressed to hammer Michigan, at least without hammering other schools even harder. But they also could hammer everyone and help push this fiasco towards a new policy that allows the radios.

 

[lhsgolf19]

If you come at the King, you better not miss

 

[RabidBadger]

If you come at the King, you better not miss

How f****ng embarrassing to stick their nose into this. Yeah, I'm sure they penned a similar letter to MSU's AD to ensure Mel Tucker got due process before he was canned . What a bunch of super-fan jagoffs.

 

[lhsgolf19]

How f****ng embarrassing to stick their nose into this. Yeah, I'm sure they penned a similar letter to MSU's AD to ensure Mel Tucker got due process before he was canned . What a bunch of super-fan jagoffs.

Lol cope Sparty… UM is the King and Mr. Petitti has no idea what he’s getting into

 

[RabidBadger]

Lol cope Sparty… UM is the King and Mr. Petitti has no idea what he’s getting into

Lol...I guess my name isn't obvious enough for you that I'm not a Sparty fan. Just using wank-boy as an example.

I'm coping just fine. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the situation that UM fans seem to lack the mental wherewithal to see. So far it's been, "I'm tellin' on OSU because they did it too" (would like to see the evidence). Now it's a "my daddy's the mayor" situation. It's okay, the rest of the nation feels embarrassed for you

 

[jaster]

Lol...I guess my name isn't obvious enough for you that I'm not a Sparty fan. Just using wank-boy as an example.

I'm coping just fine. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the situation that UM fans seem to lack the mental wherewithal to see. So far it's been, "I'm tellin' on OSU because they did it too" (would like to see the evidence). Now it's a "my daddy's the mayor" situation. It's okay, the rest of the nation feels embarrassed for you

Welcome to America where capitalism reigns. Mel Tucker maybe should have built his brand a little better before he went slapping his peen on every surface within a country mile. There’s nothing for a Michigan fan to be embarrassed about regarding those politicians. If there’s embarrassment at play, it’s a reflection of college sports and this country as a whole. What a system.

And “telling on” OSU? Lol. An anonymous entity hired an anonymous PI to break open the Michigan story, and then the rest of the Big Ten rushed to pile on. Of course Michigan is going to be like, “uh, hey look, these clods who want to bury us cheated even worse than we did.” They’d be idiots not to. It would be embarrassing if they didn’t.

 

[newfy]

So they have information that the integrity of the game has been compromised, and they are withholding it? Not exactly a good look. Can't imagine Vegas will be happy

Yeah it sounds like they do have information that the integrity of the game has been "compromised". Heres the thing though, everyone in college football knows that all this bs goes on and has been a thing forever. Difference is, Michigan has been dominant to the point that another team hired a private investigatorto air it out. Michigan wants the status quo but if theyre going to go down because another team that they likely have dirt on is trying to drag them down, theyll take everyone with them... anyone would do this

And it sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

Yeah, but if I'm gonna get in trouble for cheating, then they did it too!

Bust every last team that did it, insist on the helmets to transmit the signals so it can't happen again, and move forward.

It only sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum if you cant think logically. "Hey Petitti, if you try to nail us for this, heres a laundry list of all the other things going on that you better nail everyone else with"

That is exactly what every single person on this board would do if they were in the same situation, if you say it isnt youre a liar

There is no rule against sign stealing if you are on the sideline during the game.

There are rules about in person advanced scouting of teams youre going to play in the future.

What these other teams did was have quid pro quo to have people on their side line specifically steal Michigans signals . Employees of other universities were "paid" to steal Michigans signs while on the side line of games. These teams all benefitted from it, some of the spread sheets of michigans signs have been leaked. It was advanced scouting by definition and it wasnt just "coaches" talking about what they saw off hand. They were all colluding together.

If you dont think thats also cheating, thats fine. But at the very least all the pearl clutching about Michigan having some major advantage needs to stop. It also seems like Michigan has a lot more dirt on teams and this is all theyve let slip for now to show they mean business

 

[raymond23]

I don’t think there’s a more insufferable fan base than college football fans, no offense

 

[izlez]

Yeah it sounds like they do have information that the integrity of the game has been "compromised". Heres the thing though, everyone in college football knows that all this bs goes on and has been a thing forever. Difference is, Michigan has been dominant to the point that another team hired a private investigatorto air it out. Michigan wants the status quo but if theyre going to go down because another team that they likely have dirt on is trying to drag them down, theyll take everyone with them... anyone would do this

Yeah, anyone with integrity would stop the cheating as soon as they had evidence to prove it. Rather than throwing a tantrum like a toddler because they got caught.

I'd love to see your evidence that everyone knows that everyone does it. That sure seems like a big problem if that information is out there and people can bet on point spreads with that info (oh wait, forget the gambling, teams profit a f***ton by winning/making the playoffs and point margin factors into that). Surely I can help you get that information to the NCAA, conferences, the police if that is what you are struggling with.

 

[RabidBadger]

Welcome to America where capitalism reigns. Mel Tucker maybe should have built his brand a little better before he went slapping his peen on every surface within a country mile. There’s nothing for a Michigan fan to be embarrassed about regarding those politicians. If there’s embarrassment at play, it’s a reflection of college sports and this country as a whole. What a system.

And “telling on” OSU? Lol. An anonymous entity hired an anonymous PI to break open the Michigan story, and then the rest of the Big Ten rushed to pile on. Of course Michigan is going to be like, “uh, hey look, these clods who want to bury us cheated even worse than we did.” They’d be idiots not to. It would be embarrassing if they didn’t.

Call me loco, but I don't see how it's not disgraceful that politicians are interjecting themselves into a sports matter that already has regulatory bodies overseeing the issue. As far as I know this is not a litigious matter at the state, or any level. If state legislators did the same for Urban Mayer during his scandal (hard to narrow it down, but the OSU one) Michigan fans would just now be finishing their initial response of indignation.

I work at UM so I'm familiar with their "brand". That is what it is. Just don't go posting self-righteous BS about all constituents having the right to due process when everyone knows these vermin wouldn't be crawling out of the sewer if it were any other school. The fact most of those politicians are UM alumni is what makes it abjectly pathetic.

As for tattling on OSU, I have no problem with the act itself. It's the fact that they came out with it after they were in a bind. Why sit on that info?

Honestly, I can't say I'm terribly upset that Michigan cheated. It's the reaction from the program and the fans . Investigate the matter, crack skulls if needed, including other teams if they did it as well. This is the kind of thing UM fans purport to hate about Alabama and OSU but seem pretty nonchalant about it when it applies to them.

 

[jaster]

Call me loco, but I don't see how it's not disgraceful that politicians are interjecting themselves into a sports matter that already has regulatory bodies overseeing the issue. As far as I know this is not a litigious matter at the state, or any level. If state legislators did the same for Urban Mayer during his scandal (hard to narrow it down, but the OSU one) Michigan fans would just now be finishing their initial response of indignation.

In an idealistic sense, I agree with you. But the reality is that money and power are at play, because those are the things that drive the engine of our current "democracy." It's simply the reality. Do I think the major college sports should wield the power they do? Absolutely not. But it's a thing that generates an incredible amount of money, and there are a lot of parties invested in that, including politicians who are theoretically beholden to their constituents, constituents who are likely even more invested in it.

I work at UM so I'm familiar with their "brand". That is what it is. Just don't go posting self-righteous BS about all constituents having the right to due process when everyone knows these vermin wouldn't be crawling out of the sewer if it were any other school. The fact most of those politicians are UM alumni is what makes it abjectly pathetic.

As for tattling on OSU, I have no problem with the act itself. It's the fact that they came out with it after they were in a bind. Why sit on that info?

Honestly, I can't say I'm terribly upset that Michigan cheated. It's the reaction from the program and the fans . Investigate the matter, crack skulls if needed, including other teams if they did it as well. This is the kind of thing UM fans purport to hate about Alabama and OSU but seem pretty nonchalant about it when it applies to them.

Look, I'm the type of alum who lights the mailer on fire when it comes to my house asking for a donation. That shit is offensive. So I'm not about to defend politicians spending their time and resources on something that, in the end, matters almost not at all. But again, it's just the reality. And if one day that is the worst thing politicians are doing, we can confidently stamp this experiment that is the United States as a rousing success lol.

As for sitting on the info, this appears to have all been a big game of chicken. These schools all knew what the others were doing. They were operating under the quiet agreement of "we all do it, so just don't attract attention." And then an anonymous entity decided to blow it all up. Notice how no one wants to claim responsibility for that. It's rather telling. So now that the cat is out of the bag, all the cats are going to come out of the bag. This story is much less about Michigan than it is about college football as a whole, or at least the Big Ten. What OSU and Alabama have done in the past is on another level relative to this, partly because they were doing things that no one else was doing (at least at the time.... obviously the Tattooed Five are pretty analogous to the Fab Five... and I don't know Michigan fans who are nonchalant about that).

 

[Konnan511]

Call me loco, but I don't see how it's not disgraceful that politicians are interjecting themselves into a sports matter that already has regulatory bodies overseeing the issue. As far as I know this is not a litigious matter at the state, or any level. If state legislators did the same for Urban Mayer during his scandal (hard to narrow it down, but the OSU one) Michigan fans would just now be finishing their initial response of indignation.

I work at UM so I'm familiar with their "brand". That is what it is. Just don't go posting self-righteous BS about all constituents having the right to due process when everyone knows these vermin wouldn't be crawling out of the sewer if it were any other school. The fact most of those politicians are UM alumni is what makes it abjectly pathetic.

As for tattling on OSU, I have no problem with the act itself. It's the fact that they came out with it after they were in a bind. Why sit on that info?

Honestly, I can't say I'm terribly upset that Michigan cheated. It's the reaction from the program and the fans . Investigate the matter, crack skulls if needed, including other teams if they did it as well. This is the kind of thing UM fans purport to hate about Alabama and OSU but seem pretty nonchalant about it when it applies to them.

It is very cringe.

As for sitting on the info, this appears to have all been a big game of chicken. These schools all knew what the others were doing. They were operating under the quiet agreement of "we all do it, so just don't attract attention." And then an anonymous entity decided to blow it all up. Notice how no one wants to claim responsibility for that. It's rather telling. So now that the cat is out of the bag, all the cats are going to come out of the bag. This story is much less about Michigan than it is about college football as a whole, or at least the Big Ten. What OSU and Alabama have done in the past is on another level relative to this, partly because they were doing things that no one else was doing (at least at the time.... obviously the Tattooed Five are pretty analogous to the Fab Five... and I don't know Michigan fans who are nonchalant about that).

Genuinely curious, source?

 

[jaster]

Genuinely curious, source?

I'm going off the litany of quotes in numerous articles in recent weeks from insiders, current coaches, and former coaches. Here's just a couple of examples:

'There's honor amongst thieves': What college football coaches say about legal and illlegal sign stealing

Sign stealing, whether legal or illegal "is incredibly rampant in this business," a longtime Power 5 assistant said. Ohio State defensive coordinator Jim Knowles told ESPN in December that he estimates 75% of teams do it in some form.

When LSU played Clemson in the 2020 College Football Playoff, sources said the staff suspected Clemson of sending people to scout them in the SEC championship game and Peach Bowl, an assertion a Clemson spokesperson said the program categorically denies. Brent Venables, then Clemson's defensive coordinator, has long been the focal point of sign-stealing speculation, according to multiple sources, though no one has publicly accused him of anything illegal. After LSU's first three offensive drives ended with three punts and one first down, sources said a frustrated coach Ed Orgeron told offensive coordinator Steve Ensminger, "Change it up." Upon changing signals, LSU scored touchdowns on five of its next six drives.

And...

"There's honor amongst thieves," a former SEC coach said. "Want to turn someone in? Fine. But you better make sure no one in your building is doing anything remotely resembling cheating."

Again, coming at Michigan anonymously is highly suspect.

Inside the sideline vs. sideline battle to hide, decode and steal signals

When Brent Pry was coaching the defense at Louisiana-Lafayette nearly 20 years ago, he had a habit of printing out an early draft of his game plan, scribbling notes and changes by hand, then making the needed changes to the documents. After he printed out the finished product, he'd tear up his first draft and toss it in his office garbage can.

As it happened, however, in one showdown against a rival -- Pry isn't telling which one -- he found himself utterly perplexed by the opponent's uncanny ability to predict exactly what play he'd just signaled to his players. Down after down, the rival was running plays that were at stark odds with the overwhelming tendencies Pry had studied all week. Pry's staff was baffled.

"It was like they were in our headsets," said Pry, now the head coach at Virginia Tech.

The day after the game, cleaning crews made their way through the visiting locker room, and lo and behold, there was Pry's original game script, taped back together.

The other team's staff wasn't listening in on Pry's headset, but it absolutely knew every play that was coming.

"They'd gone through our trash on Friday night," Pry said. "They found it and put it back together."

The recent allegations that Michigan had its own covert operative spying on other teams to crack the code for play signals has the college football world abuzz, but the truth is, sign stealing -- and some outright Rube Goldberg-like plots to do it -- is as deeply rooted in the fabric of college football as the tempo offenses that made the process chic.

"If you play someone who's not picking signals," one coach said, "it's like, 'Ah, this is so refreshing.' It's like the 1990s again."

On the other hand, Clawson noted he once had an opposing school reach out to a former Wake equipment manager during the offseason and ask for insight on the Deacons' signals. The school had a handful of support staff whose entire job during the offseason was to crack the signals for every opponent it would play the following year.

It brings to mind a story about Bobby Bowden's great Florida State teams of the 1980s and '90s. Around Tallahassee, there's a deep-rooted belief the story comes from rival Miami, but it was chronicled in Mike Freeman's biography of the late Seminoles coach, "Bowden: How Bobby Bowden Forged a Football Dynasty."

In the book, Freeman quotes an anonymous coach, who fesses up to some particularly devious measures to get into Bowden's head.

"We did some things I regret to this day," the coach said.

They sent spies to Florida State's practices, and they put microphones in the visiting locker room at their stadium. They got inside info on trick plays FSU planned to run, and they listened in on Bowden's pregame speech and halftime adjustments. The coach guessed he probably had 30% to 40% of the Seminoles' plays from cheating.

 

[ricky0034]

play by play guy for the local broadcasts seems like such a weird place for Chicago to cheap out on and drive a guy that people seem to have a super positive opinion of away, I can't imagine those guys are exactly raking in the millions

 

[aar000n]

What's confusing is that the rule exists to keep teams from a financial advantage. While teams pay more in scholarships to attend Michigan compared to a MAC school. The ability to buy better players seems like a financial advantage. And the ability to have boosters give money does as well. That seems like a competitive advantage to me. But sign stealing that way is going to far.

 

[ricky0034]

What's confusing is that the rule exists to keep teams from a financial advantage. While teams pay more in scholarships to attend Michigan compared to a MAC school. The ability to buy better players seems like a financial advantage. And the ability to have boosters give money does as well. That seems like a competitive advantage to me. But sign stealing that way is going to far.

the whole "smaller schools can't afford to send people to games" is so silly too

like i'm sure there's schools that can't afford that but not any that someone like Michigan is actually competing with

the big ten literally has a billion dollar a year television contract, every single team in that conference is f***ing loaded

 

[Konnan511]

What's confusing is that the rule exists to keep teams from a financial advantage. While teams pay more in scholarships to attend Michigan compared to a MAC school. The ability to buy better players seems like a financial advantage. And the ability to have boosters give money does as well. That seems like a competitive advantage to me. But sign stealing that way is going to far.

Looks over at waterproof CMU diploma hanging upside-down.

 

[Konnan511]

Whoa...

 

[Konnan511]

Ban Hammer: Big Ten bans Harbaugh from sideline amid probe

 

[jkutswings]

Ban Hammer: Big Ten bans Harbaugh from sideline amid probe

Which is really a Mickey Mouse punishment. The kids can still play, and he's still with the team 6 days a week. But whatever.

I'm curious what the NCAA will do (and when). Sounds like there's definitely more to come.

 

[Konnan511]

Which is really a Mickey Mouse punishment. The kids can still play, and he's still with the team 6 days a week. But whatever.

I'm curious what the NCAA will do (and when). Sounds like there's definitely more to come.

I believe he can still be in the booth and call the games, unless I am missing something.