OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship

[izlez]

And once again, you cant wrap your head around the fact that it goes against the big ten bylaws to punish the team that way. Which is why theres an ongoing court injunction and talk of Michigan leaving the Big Ten. Keep up

You don't seem to be arguing against the fact that Michigan is guilty of cheating.

 

[newfy]

You don't seem to be arguing against the fact that Michigan is guilty of cheating.

No I dont seem to be, thats because I'm not and no one serious has in this thread. If you would read the thread instead of responding the same thing over and over you would have seen that by now.

I'm arguing for fair suspensions from governing bodies and due process. Harbaughs 3 game suspension wasnt that

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, let's execute people before their guilt is proven. I don't care for Michigan or college football, but this is just so wrong on so many levels. Maybe I should stop being surpised how partisanship/fandom is more important than common sense, but i just can't help myself.

Included in the explanation of the suspension was the NCAA co-signing that they had violations that will merit a suspension. Nobody is really disputing their guilt outside of one school.

They used the conference bylaws that U of M is a party to and agreed upon while they sought in season judgement. They can cling to the NCAA has to complete the case, but they certainly had enough of their own intel and a co-sign with the NCAA itself to move forward. We will find out in court with a U of M graduate judge which is kind of a joke. If you truly believed in the merits of your case why not file in Chicago against the B1G???

I mean if you just want to go with the U of M angle alone sure. But all other 13 schools saw this as an egregious violation. They have substantial proof that it happened and can prove that. U of M is not the victim here.

Have a fake championship run, I don’t care. I won’t participate in the sham cries for integrity from an institution that has little of it. Remember when you were a kid, trying to lie your way out of a known wrong got you in more trouble. Maybe the Au-Pair missed some of that when raising the people that run U of M.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Have a fake championship run, I don’t care. I won’t participate in the sham cries for integrity from an institution that has little of it. Remember when you were a kid, trying to lie your way out of a known wrong got you in more trouble. Maybe the Au-Pair missed some of that when raising the people that run U of M.

Say this ends up being a championship run. You’re going to really love playing the charade that it’s a fake championship.

The reality is that if they win the championship this year, it’ll be more impressive than if they did it honestly. It might be tainted by all the drama surrounding it, but they have two regular season games worth a damn both of which will be played without the benefits that they get from cheating, without their head coach on the sideline. If they beat Penn State on the road and Ohio State without a coach and on level footing, then beat whatever team comes from the Big Ten West, then win in the semis, then win in the championship, there will be nothing fake about it.

Even if you vacate it, an argument that it wasn’t impressive will be for people who are playing a game of semantics.

 

[jkutswings]

Say this ends up being a championship run. You’re going to really love playing the charade that it’s a fake championship.

The reality is that if they win the championship this year, it’ll be more impressive than if they did it honestly. It might be tainted by all the drama surrounding it, but they have two regular season games worth a damn both of which will be played without the benefits that they get from cheating, without their head coach on the sideline. If they beat Penn State on the road and Ohio State without a coach and on level footing, then beat whatever team comes from the Big Ten West, then win in the semis, then win in the championship, there will be nothing fake about it.

Even if you vacate it, an argument that it wasn’t impressive will be for people who are playing a game of semantics.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that Harbaugh is great at recruiting and working with the kids during the week, but a mediocre game manager.

If the allegations are all true, this is a total slap on the wrist of a punishment. Now it's entirely possible that the punishment changes significantly once additional findings come out. But in the here and now, losing Harbaugh for 3 calendar days is absolutely nothing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Say this ends up being a championship run. You’re going to really love playing the charade that it’s a fake championship.

The reality is that if they win the championship this year, it’ll be more impressive than if they did it honestly. It might be tainted by all the drama surrounding it, but they have two regular season games worth a damn both of which will be played without the benefits that they get from cheating, without their head coach on the sideline. If they beat Penn State on the road and Ohio State without a coach and on level footing, then beat whatever team comes from the Big Ten West, then win in the semis, then win in the championship, there will be nothing fake about it.

Even if you vacate it, an argument that it wasn’t impressive will be for people who are playing a game of semantics.

It will be abandoned and not recognized. Most outside of U of M won’t recognize it and I find this argument ridiculous. I don’t view the Pete Carroll USC Bush team as a champion, they were stripped of it for cheating. There were also less on the field benefits in the USC case to speak to the nature of why the hammer should drop.

It isn’t impressive that you need to overcome your own self-inflicted errors. It is also clear by NCAA history they will have to abandon all games and seasons this was in use. So welcome to the #3 all-time winning program, actions have consequences. Try maybe being the Leaders, the best and have integrity. Hiding behind a fraudulent NC will make the Walmart Wolverines and the delusional alumni happy, but no I won’t recognize it, much like the governing body won’t. Now I don’t matter the second one does.

I have family members that have attended and one of my best friends in Florida is a Walmart Wolverines transplant that went to CMU. The clutch onto this season remains a mystery, they are drawing dead into the end of the season. I hope Maryland or tOSU does everyone a solid and eliminates the faux championship from even existing for a few months.

 

[izlez]

Say this ends up being a championship run. You’re going to really love playing the charade that it’s a fake championship.

The reality is that if they win the championship this year, it’ll be more impressive than if they did it honestly. It might be tainted by all the drama surrounding it, but they have two regular season games worth a damn both of which will be played without the benefits that they get from cheating, without their head coach on the sideline. If they beat Penn State on the road and Ohio State without a coach and on level footing, then beat whatever team comes from the Big Ten West, then win in the semis, then win in the championship, there will be nothing fake about it.

Even if you vacate it, an argument that it wasn’t impressive will be for people who are playing a game of semantics.

There's a handful of other undefeated teams with nothing but garbage opponents that are getting 0 playoff consideration. Perhaps if they knew the other teams plays, they could increase their margin of victory by 14-21 points per game and get in that conversation?

 

[jaster]

I am loving all the anti-Michigan mental gymnastics in this thread. Pretty sure I got a coverall on my bingo card. I'd say "cope harder," that's a fun one, but really some of ya'll just need some therapy.

 

[FabricDetails]

Henrik Zetterberg: Fatherly Advice Set the Stage for Stellar Red Wings Career | Detroit Red Wings

Seventh-round pick became a Stanley Cup champion, Conn Smythe Trophy winner and Red Wings captain

www.nhl.com

Miss this dude.

 

[ricky0034]

It will be abandoned and not recognized. Most outside of U of M won’t recognize it and I find this argument ridiculous. I don’t view the Pete Carroll USC Bush team as a champion, they were stripped of it for cheating. There were also less on the field benefits in the USC case to speak to the nature of why the hammer should drop.

It isn’t impressive that you need to overcome your own self-inflicted errors. It is also clear by NCAA history they will have to abandon all games and seasons this was in use. So welcome to the #3 all-time winning program, actions have consequences. Try maybe being the Leaders, the best and have integrity. Hiding behind a fraudulent NC will make the Walmart Wolverines and the delusional alumni happy, but no I won’t recognize it, much like the governing body won’t. Now I don’t matter the second was does.

I have family members that have attended and one of my best friends in Florida is a Walmart Wolverines transplant that went to CMU. The clutch onto this season remains a mystery, they are drawing dead into the end of the season. I hope Maryland or tOSU does everyone a solid and eliminates the faux championship from even existing for a few months.

everyone of course has their own opinion on what something that happened being taken away after the fact would mean but honestly this image I saw a couple days ago sums up pretty well how I feel on that subject and I would wager a great many people feel the same(probably a majority to be honest, especially for people that don't already have a vested interest in this stuff like I don't)

 

[jkutswings]

everyone of course has their own opinion on what something that happened being taken away after the fact would mean but honestly this image I saw a couple days ago sums up pretty well how I feel on that subject and I would wager a great many people feel the same(probably a majority to be honest, especially for people that don't already have a vested interest in this stuff like I don't)

View attachment 768679

Sure. If you feel that you earned something by cheating to get it. Personally, I hope they get trounced by OSU or in the first playoff game, so the whole thing is moot.

 

[newfy]

It will be abandoned and not recognized. Most outside of U of M won’t recognize it and I find this argument ridiculous. I don’t view the Pete Carroll USC Bush team as a champion, they were stripped of it for cheating. There were also less on the field benefits in the USC case to speak to the nature of why the hammer should drop.

It isn’t impressive that you need to overcome your own self-inflicted errors. It is also clear by NCAA history they will have to abandon all games and seasons this was in use. So welcome to the #3 all-time winning program, actions have consequences. Try maybe being the Leaders, the best and have integrity. Hiding behind a fraudulent NC will make the Walmart Wolverines and the delusional alumni happy, but no I won’t recognize it, much like the governing body won’t. Now I don’t matter the second was does.

I have family members that have attended and one of my best friends in Florida is a Walmart Wolverines transplant that went to CMU. The clutch onto this season remains a mystery, they are drawing dead into the end of the season. I hope Maryland or tOSU does everyone a solid and eliminates the faux championship from even existing for a few months.

I wouldnt be so sure that it wont be recognized. Sign stealing is legal, all 22 video is available and it appears to be confined to just Stallions doing it. If Michigan goes on to trounce Ohio State again this season, after just showing out against Penn State again, there wont be any argument for a serious competitive advantage at all.

Those are level 3 violations, they wont be voiding wins over that, no matter how bad you want them to. Youre acting like this is similar to what Tennessee did lol

 

[jkutswings]

I wouldnt be so sure that it wont be recognized. Sign stealing is legal, all 22 video is available and it appears to be confined to just Stallions doing it.

There's also video of players responding to the stolen signs. Stallions may or may not have been the only STAFF member doing it, but it's not like he collected data and kept it for himself.

If Michigan goes on to trounce Ohio State again this season, after just showing out against Penn State again, there wont be any argument for a serious competitive advantage at all.

No, that's an argument that the team can still win without the unfair advantage, not that it doesn't make a difference.

Those are level 3 violations, they wont be voiding wins over that, no matter how bad you want them to. Youre acting like this is similar to what Tennessee did lol

We'll see what evidence the NCAA eventually releases and what verdict they render.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Hey any updates on Franzens condition? I last heard he wasn't doing too good?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I wouldnt be so sure that it wont be recognized. Sign stealing is legal, all 22 video is available and it appears to be confined to just Stallions doing it. If Michigan goes on to trounce Ohio State again this season, after just showing out against Penn State again, there wont be any argument for a serious competitive advantage at all.

Those are level 3 violations, they wont be voiding wins over that, no matter how bad you want them to. Youre acting like this is similar to what Tennessee did lol

Level I: Severe breach of conduct​

Violations that seriously undermine or threaten the integrity of the NCAA collegiate model as set forth in the Constitution and bylaws, including any violation that provides or is intended to provide a substantial or extensive recruiting, competitive or other advantage, or a substantial or extensive impermissible benefit.

Level II: Significant breach of conduct​

Violations that provide or are intended to provide more than a minimal but less than a substantial or extensive recruiting, competitive or other advantage; includes more than a minimal but less than a substantial or extensive impermissible benefit; or involves conduct that may compromise the integrity of the NCAA collegiate model as set forth in the Constitution and bylaws.

Level III: Breach of conduct​

Violations that are isolated or limited in nature; provide no more than a minimal recruiting, competitive or other advantage; and do not include more than a minimal impermissible benefit. Multiple Level IV violations may collectively be considered a breach of conduct.

Level IV: Incidental issues​

Incidental infractions that are inadvertent and isolated, technical in nature and result in a negligible, if any, competitive advantage. Level IV infractions generally will not affect eligibility for intercollegiate athletics.

New Violation Structure Introduced

NOTE: This story is an archived news article about the introduction of voliation structures in the past. Updated information about violation structures can be found

www.ncaa.org

The actual NCAA bylaws. U of M has seen fit to breach a competitive 1994 rule and has violated over 30 times according to most accounting. That makes it impossible to put in the Level III area. It would almost certainly be argued as unethical level I violation in fact the other conference members argued this was a serious violation. At best you're hoping to argue Level II. They already have an open investigation at the Level I for failure too cooperate. I know shocking right... By the way that is what saved Tennessee the worst of what was on the table, it stated that pretty significantly when they were handed punishment in terms of they did cooperate. These also stack if you're a repeat offender. Those are the actual rules, not the ones on On3 Michigan or other Wolverine sites. They aren't hiding this stuff from all you guys/gals feel free to really dig in and examine the likely outcomes with the organization that holds the fate of your potential NC in their hands.

 

[jaster]

When I was 5, a guy at Tiger Stadium looked at me, said he didn’t like kids, and put his cigarette out on my arm, aNd So F*cK tHe DeTrOiT tIgErS fOrEvEr

 

[Winger98]

They should be pushing a blank check to Ohtani and be the highest bidder in the room for Yamamoto. Not only do they improve the team, but Ohtani in particular will be worth his contract just in the money he'll rake in for the org and expanding their market.

It's a pipe dream, but Ohtani instantly slots Green and Torkelson into much more favorable 4th and 5th spots in the order, and provides the sort of bat that extends innings and wears down the other teams pitchers.

 

[ricky0034]

I saw the threadmark thing and "blank check to Ohtani" and got my hopes up for a second

 

[Winger98]

sorry about that, I didn't meant to get anyone's hopes up for the Tigers

 

[newfy]

There's also video of players responding to the stolen signs. Stallions may or may not have been the only STAFF member doing it, but it's not like he collected data and kept it for himself.


No, that's an argument that the team can still win without the unfair advantage, not that it doesn't make a difference.


We'll see what evidence the NCAA eventually releases and what verdict they render.

Stealing signs is legal, every team does it. So coaches responding to it doesnt mean anything. It also doesnt prove how much data he gathered from the stolen signs vs actual game film vs discussing with other teams. All things that will matter.

If Michigan, without stolen signs is laying the same kind of beatdowns that it did with them, itll absolutely help their case for the lack of competitive advantage. Right now, they not only dont have the stolen signs, they also dont have a "sign stealing" analyst on their staff at all. Losing Stallions "advantage" mid season and still pumping whoever you run into, absolutely shows you didnt benefit that greatly from what he was doing

 

[jkutswings]

Stealing signs is legal, every team does it. So coaches responding to it doesn't mean anything.

Yep. But traveling to other games to steal them isn't. Nor is coordinating with members of other schools to gain an advantage on an upcoming opponent.

It also doesnt prove how much data he gathered from the stolen signs vs actual game film vs discussing with other teams. All things that will matter.

If Michigan, without stolen signs is laying the same kind of beatdowns that it did with them, itll absolutely help their case for the lack of competitive advantage. Right now, they not only dont have the stolen signs, they also dont have a "sign stealing" analyst on their staff at all. Losing Stallions "advantage" mid season and still pumping whoever you run into, absolutely shows you didnt benefit that greatly from what he was doing

You're arguing degrees. If all is this eventually amounts to, "Michigan cheated in such a way that it provided roughly a 2-point advantage in each of X games." Then they should still forfeit each of those wins, even if the margin of victory was greater than 2 points.

Because. They. Cheated.
And are a repeat violator of NCAA rules.
And their mother was a hamster, and their father smelled of elderberries.

Well maybe not that last one.

 

[Konnan511]

This should hopefully be the end of it.

Harbaugh accepts Big Ten's 3-game suspension

Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh will accept a three-game suspension from the Big Ten and the conference will end its investigation into a sign-stealing scheme as part of an agreement to resolve the school's lawsuit against the league.

www.espn.com

 

[RabidBadger]

This should hopefully be the end of it.

Harbaugh accepts Big Ten's 3-game suspension

Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh will accept a three-game suspension from the Big Ten and the conference will end its investigation into a sign-stealing scheme as part of an agreement to resolve the school's lawsuit against the league.

www.espn.com

How weird that Harbaugh accepts the suspension and the school withdraws its legal challenge with such a "lack of evidence". Sarcasm emoji not needed.

 

[Hen Kolland]

How weird that Harbaugh accepts the suspension and the school withdraws its legal challenge with such a "lack of evidence". Sarcasm emoji not needed.

On the other hand, what does the Big Ten gain by walking away from their investigation if they had anything that resembled smoke beyond the Stalions thing? They apparently had leverage with Michigan yielding to the first suspension, why not see it through and step on the throat?

My suspicion is that Michigan wasn’t confident enough that they could get an injunction in the first place so they tried to end the entire saga with the Big Ten, and the Big Ten had acquired no more evidence than what they had to make the first suspension due to lack of institutional control. Rather than either side turning it into a legal circus with both sides staking reputation, they agree to both piss off.

Most will tout this as a win for the Big Ten and a loss for Michigan. It just feels like two sides that know they are in the gray area and would rather not be exposed as such.

 

[newfy]

Yep. But traveling to other games to steal them isn't. Nor is coordinating with members of other schools to gain an advantage on an upcoming opponent.


You're arguing degrees. If all is this eventually amounts to, "Michigan cheated in such a way that it provided roughly a 2-point advantage in each of X games." Then they should still forfeit each of those wins, even if the margin of victory was greater than 2 points.

Because. They. Cheated.
And are a repeat violator of NCAA rules.
And their mother was a hamster, and their father smelled of elderberries.

Well maybe not that last one.

I'm not sure you understand how NCAA violations work. Degrees are exactly what should be discussed and youre not in the right convo if you dont want to

They have varying levels of violations, and a large part of it is based on competitive advantage. Stealing signs in person is illegal yes, but if every other team has everyone else's signs from the all 22 footage, as well as teams well known to be passing signs between each other ahead of different match ups, then it wasn't a massive competitive advantage and it likely wont be at a level high enough to warrant the type of forfeit games youre talking abuot.

The NCAA literally tried to get rid of the rule a few years ago because it did not provide a major advantage and the majority of schools voted to allow it. It didnt get the super majority needed to pass but it doesnt change the fact that most teams thought it didnt provide a major advantage anymore thanks to the available game footage

They might lose some scholarships, Harbaugh might miss some games, but this is not the type of thing that teams get 3 seasons worth of wins vacated for