OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship

[izlez]

On the Michigan front... I will say two things.

2) There should also be some temperance on the penalty (Re; sign stealing). It is something that is done by literally every competitor since the beginning of time. It isn't some earth shattering, integrity of the game bombshell. All the talk of "Oh, they should have the option to not play the game" was always nonsense.

The parallels of the Houston Astros are too easy to draw, and while they are different leagues, the precedent set seems to disagree.

"Sign stealing is not inherently against baseball rules and has long been considered part of the game, as it is considered an observational loophole.[7] In 2017, The New York Times wrote that sign stealing was "something of an art form in baseball" which "is tolerated, even admired".[8] Many players and coaches are considered masters at stealing signs."

"The sanctions against the Astros were the most severe that MLB has ever issued against a member club[2] and are among the most severe sanctions for in-game misconduct in baseball history."

Houston Astros sign stealing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

The parallels of the Houston Astros are too easy to draw, and while they are different leagues, the precedent set seems to disagree.

"Sign stealing is not inherently against baseball rules and has long been considered part of the game, as it is considered an observational loophole.[7] In 2017, The New York Times wrote that sign stealing was "something of an art form in baseball" which "is tolerated, even admired".[8] Many players and coaches are considered masters at stealing signs."

"The sanctions against the Astros were the most severe that MLB has ever issued against a member club[2] and are among the most severe sanctions for in-game misconduct in baseball history."

Houston Astros sign stealing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're not wrong. However, I would vehemently disagree that the two are linked and any parallel is specious at best. It's lazy reporting and lazy analysis, but seems to be par for the course.

In the case with the Astros, they had live feed cameras into the dugout, players wearing essentially wire-taps, and banging on trash cans to indicate, in real time, what pitches were coming. This is a direct on-field, real-time advantage that other teams didn't have.

With Michigan, what they're being accused of (much of which has been proven) is a coach going himself and hiring others to go in-person to record the sidelines to capture the signs and then align them with the existing All-22 and other legally available film to gather what sign indicates what play. Basically, the Astros got a real-time massive advantage. Michigan got an advantage in terms of having a greater volume of data to smash together into signs on the sidelines that Connor Stalions could act out to help the team.

Now, this is a distinction without importance for basically anyone except Michigan, because the process by which the sidelines of other teams were recorded was illegal on its face and therefore any information gleaned from it (and I'm stretching this legal tenet, so don't shoot me) would be considered something akin to "fruit of the poisoned tree". Aka even if all the work to collate the signs and such is completely kosher and everyone steals signs or looks for an advantage, they did it illegally on the face of it, so it's all against the rules.

But... Michigan has done enough with their ludicrously stupid "cover-up" or lack thereof to absolutely firebomb them. Whether the sign-stealing is material or not doesn't matter so much if you've got an LB coach telling players what to say and trying to destroy e-mails and technological devices with evidence on them, direct records of a booster (Uncle T) paying off a coach's mortgage, in addition to any other NCAA violations they're currently under investigation for. They're going to face severe penalties as they well should.

 

[newfy]

The parallels of the Houston Astros are too easy to draw, and while they are different leagues, the precedent set seems to disagree.

"Sign stealing is not inherently against baseball rules and has long been considered part of the game, as it is considered an observational loophole.[7] In 2017, The New York Times wrote that sign stealing was "something of an art form in baseball" which "is tolerated, even admired".[8] Many players and coaches are considered masters at stealing signs."

"The sanctions against the Astros were the most severe that MLB has ever issued against a member club[2] and are among the most severe sanctions for in-game misconduct in baseball history."

Houston Astros sign stealing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You actually think those situations are all that close to one another?

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

You actually think those situations are all that close to one another?

Sadly yes. And it is common in mainstream media. Astros stole signs, Michigan stole signs. They literally don't go deeper than that.

Again, the thing Michigan is gonna get absolutely whacked about is the lack of institutional control to let a booster fund a scheme and a LB coach instructing players on how to respond to allegations. Those are why Michigan went from "We're gonna fight this tooth and nail in court" to "yes, please let us off with three games to Jimmy".

But you can see it in talking to fans of any other fanbase. "Well, look how they're not covering the spread now that they can't cheat!"

 

[izlez]

You actually think those situations are all that close to one another?

Yes, I think the two situations in which teams broke the rules to steal opponents signals in order to gain a competitive advantage even though "everyone steals signals" and the scheme (probably) wasn't supported by the head coach are very similar.

 

[izlez]

In the case with the Astros, they had live feed cameras into the dugout, players wearing essentially wire-taps, and banging on trash cans to indicate, in real time, what pitches were coming. This is a direct on-field, real-time advantage that other teams didn't have.

With Michigan, what they're being accused of (much of which has been proven) is a coach going himself and hiring others to go in-person to record the sidelines to capture the signs and then align them with the existing All-22 and other legally available film to gather what sign indicates what play. Basically, the Astros got a real-time massive advantage. Michigan got an advantage in terms of having a greater volume of data to smash together into signs on the sidelines that Connor Stalions could act out to help the team.

Now, this is a distinction without importance for basically anyone except Michigan, because the process by which the sidelines of other teams were recorded was illegal on its face and therefore any information gleaned from it (and I'm stretching this legal tenet, so don't shoot me) would be considered something akin to "fruit of the poisoned tree". Aka even if all the work to collate the signs and such is completely kosher and everyone steals signs or looks for an advantage, they did it illegally on the face of it, so it's all against the rules.

There's never going to be a PERFECT parallel between two different sports, but I'm struggling to follow the distinction you're trying to make.

The Astros broke the rules and stole signs to know what pitch was coming next.
Michigan broke the rules and stole signs to know what play was coming next.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

There's never going to be a PERFECT parallel between two different sports, but I'm struggling to follow the distinction you're trying to make.

The Astros broke the rules and stole signs to know what pitch was coming next.
Michigan broke the rules and stole signs to know what play was coming next.

And izlez, that's 100% what I'm saying. Media will do exactly what you just did. Oh, one cheated and knew what was coming and the other cheated and knew what was coming, so they're basically the same thing.

The Astros did it in real time. Correa and others were wearing equipment and they were banging on trash cans with a live feed to their dugout so they would get immediate response to knowing whether it's a fastball or off-speed pitch. Teams in MLB don't steal signs this way. They steal signs by having a guy on second base look at the catcher's hand or guy in their dugout staring at guy in other dugout

Michigan did it spanned over several weeks/months/years and required guys like Stalions and anyone else to video tape the sidelines, piece together against the All-22 during film study, and what not... and if a team had any inkling their signs were stolen (a la TCU), they change a sign and whoops, no advantage at all for Michigan. Plus... teams actually do share the exact info that Michigan was pulling from Stalion's video taping. OSU and Rutgers shared precisely the same video tape with Purdue that Stalions would have provided for Michigan himself.

It's the immediacy of the thing and the novelty of the thing that makes it different. And even so... look at how the team is responding to it. When it was just the sign-stealing? Michigan was gonna fight it tooth and nail. They brought in the evidence of Partridge trying to coach guys to cover it up and/or destroy technological devices and the news of Uncle T funding Stalions doing this? Michigan turns with tail between legs to accept the punishment.

 

[izlez]

And izlez, that's 100% what I'm saying. Media will do exactly what you just did. Oh, one cheated and knew what was coming and the other cheated and knew what was coming, so they're basically the same thing.

The Astros did it in real time. Correa and others were wearing equipment and they were banging on trash cans with a live feed to their dugout so they would get immediate response to knowing whether it's a fastball or off-speed pitch. Teams in MLB don't steal signs this way. They steal signs by having a guy on second base look at the catcher's hand or guy in their dugout staring at guy in other dugout

Michigan did it spanned over several weeks/months/years and required guys like Stalions and anyone else to video tape the sidelines, piece together against the All-22 during film study, and what not... and if a team had any inkling their signs were stolen (a la TCU), they change a sign and whoops, no advantage at all for Michigan.

We might just have to agree to disagree here, because while they are not perfectly identical, it's not clear or obvious that one is worse than the other, or if one is worse, WHICH one is worse, and basically everything you said here applies to both scandals.

"Teams in MLB don't steal signs this way". Teams in the NCAA don't steal signs this way either. That is essentially the whole point. Just like MLB has guys on 2nd base, in NCAA football have guys hold up giants signs that have a code for what play they are running. If you can decode the thing right in front of your face in-game, no one has a problem with that.

If a MLB team had an inkling their signs were being stolen, they could change a sign, and whoops, no advantage at all for the Astros. The burden is on teams to not cheat. Not teams to correctly counteract the cheating.

Plus... teams actually do share the exact info that Michigan was pulling from Stalion's video taping. OSU and Rutgers shared precisely the same video tape with Purdue that Stalions would have provided for Michigan himself.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think there was anything about OSU and Rutgers videotaping sidelines and sharing it with Purdue.

Regardless, if there are more teams that cheated, I'd love to have them face major penalties as well.

It's the immediacy of the thing and the novelty of the thing that makes it different. And even so... look at how the team is responding to it. When it was just the sign-stealing? Michigan was gonna fight it tooth and nail. They brought in the evidence of Partridge trying to coach guys to cover it up and/or destroy technological devices and the news of Uncle T funding Stalions doing this? Michigan turns with tail between legs to accept the punishment.

Believe it or not, talking big to the media about how you are 100% innocent and you will fight tooth and nail to the death to prove it, and then when the day comes to defend yourself in court comes and you backtrack completely, I don't just continue to take your word that you're innocent

 

[newfy]

We might just have to agree to disagree here, because while they are not perfectly identical, it's not clear or obvious that one is worse than the other, or if one is worse, WHICH one is worse, and basically everything you said here applies to both scandals.

Yeah you dont like Michigan clearly... this is one of the dumber posts I've seen on here in a while.

If you legit cant tell or admit if "hey youre about to get a curve ball" 10 seconds before its thrown due to the way the astros cheated is a significantly bigger in game advantage than what Michigan/Stallions got busted then there is literally no reasoning with you or point in even discussing this topic. Like you actually cant tell which is a bigger advantage? Or youre just burying your head in the sand and crying about Michigan needing a death penalty?

 

[izlez]

Yeah you dont like Michigan clearly... this is one of the dumber posts I've seen on here in a while.

If you legit cant tell or admit if "hey youre about to get a curve ball" 10 seconds before its thrown due to the way the astros cheated is a significantly bigger in game advantage than what Michigan/Stallions got busted then there is literally no reasoning with you or point in even discussing this topic. Like you actually cant tell which is a bigger advantage? Or youre just burying your head in the sand and crying about Michigan needing a death penalty?

Yeah, you're going to have to tell me how "hey you're about to get a curve ball" is different from "hey you're about to get a swing screen"

 

[RabidBadger]

you legit cant tell or admit if "hey youre about to get a curve ball" 10 seconds before its thrown due to the way the astros cheated is a significantly bigger in game advantage than what Michigan/Stallions got busted then there is literally no reasoning with you or point in even discussing this topic. Like you actually cant tell which is a bigger advantage? Or youre just burying your head in the sand and crying about Michigan needing a death penalty?

I don't think that question can be answered right now due to the small sample size of games Michigan has played after they no longer had their "Intel". They sure have allowed more points in that time frame. I'd be curious to see what other stats may have taken a nose dive.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Yeah, you're going to have to tell me how "hey you're about to get a curve ball" is different from "hey you're about to get a swing screen"

One is quite literally... "two seconds from now, you're going to get a curve ball" and the other is "several weeks or months ago, this signal meant a swing pass to the left side".

Now, Michigan does deserve to get whacked really hard because they allowed a booster to pay for impermissible things, they had a coach instruct players on what to say, and all of that came on the heels of another investigation so you can term them repeat offenders.

I don't think that question can be answered right now due to the small sample size of games Michigan has played after they no longer had their "Intel". They sure have allowed more points in that time frame. I'd be curious to see what other stats may have taken a nose dive.

I mean, they also went from Rutgers being the legitimate best team they faced to Penn State, Maryland, and Ohio State. Statistically, there are as many reasons why their PPG on offense and defense could be different without any external impact.

 

[RabidBadger]

I mean, they also went from Rutgers being the legitimate best team they faced to Penn State, Maryland, and Ohio State. Statistically, there are as many reasons why their PPG on offense and defense could be different without any external impact.

Penn State is frightfully overrated. They do have a legit defense so I can buy the elevated competition with them to a point. Still, 60 total passing yards is an eye-popping kind of bad stat.

I can't play along and pretend Maryland is anything special. Even Penn State's moribund offense hung 51 points on them. Michigan thrashed Nebraska and Rutgers which had better ranked defenses.

I understand each game is different situationally, but the eye test and the numbers suggests Michigan is sputtering on both sides of the ball post spy-glass gate.

 

[jkutswings]

So now we've switched to, "They didn't cheat as badly as the Astros did"?

They cheated.
And lacked institutional control.
And then had at least one additional staff member instruct players in how to cover it up.

Debating the degree of competitive advantage is fine. But the collection above is already a VERY serious situation, and deserves significant punishment all by itself.

 

[newfy]

So now we've switched to, "They didn't cheat as badly as the Astros did"?

They cheated.
And lacked institutional control.
And then had at least one additional staff member instruct players in how to cover it up.

Debating the degree of competitive advantage is fine. But the collection above is already a VERY serious situation, and deserves significant punishment all by itself.

No we switched to "if youre comparing it to the astros then you sound like you have no idea what youre talking about"

 

[Konnan511]

Aaron Glenn needs to stop calling zone on defense. We get destroyed on zones.

 

[saska sault]

Aaron Glenn needs to stop calling zone on defense. We get destroyed on zones.

Aaron Glenn needs to stop being employed weeks ago.

 

[MabusIncarnate]

This D is something else man.

 

[Konnan511]

Fire Aaron Glenn. Terrible play calling lead to this loss. Our DLine made their OLine look HOF worthy.

 

[Konnan511]

Our OLine owes Goff anything he wants. Their protection was worst than what the Bengals normally gives Burrows.

 

[aar000n]

That game was so bad. The only time the defense stopped them is when they stopped themselves. Dropped passes and qb running into rb. Which was the hardest Green Bays quarterback was hit. Then Goff was under pressure every play. I thought we had an elite offensive line.

 

[Bench]

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

No we switched to "if youre comparing it to the astros then you sound like you have no idea what youre talking about"

Yup. Read everything I’ve said. Michigan deserves to get the book thrown at them because they did break the rule and then they did all the shit you’re REALLY not supposed to (take money from boosters for improper stuff, have a coach instruct players on how to obfuscate things, and be a repeat offender)

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Why couldn’t you Packer jerks just suck and let someone else run away with it for once?

 

[newfy]

Yup. Read everything I’ve said. Michigan deserves to get the book thrown at them because they did break the rule and then they did all the shit you’re REALLY not supposed to (take money from boosters for improper stuff, have a coach instruct players on how to obfuscate things, and be a repeat offender)

No I'm agreeing with you. I've never said they didnt cheat either but the clowns trying to compare it to the astros in here just kinda show where their agenda is