OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship

[The Zetterberg Era]

There have been calls for people's jobs over the years in Detroit. I always feel awkward about this, they are people. But, honestly how in the **** does Al still have his job? Like seriously...

When I talk about worrying about Chris Ilitch the Owner, yeah the Tigers aren't exactly setting my world on fire. I have to remind myself that Mike struggled with the Tigers out of the gate, but this ain't good. I don't really pay as much attention to basketball or baseball. I still check the local team from my childhood scores, but it is hard not to look at it from a far more neutral perspective than years ago and see this disaster that is Avila. I mean how much longer are we seriously going to watch this? Chris are you awake?

Are we waiting for the Mikko Koskinen Peter Chiarelli moment? It feels like we have hit those depths for the hockey comparison.

 

[jaster]

Mel Pearson deemed ‘not credible’ multiple times in Michigan hockey investigation, report says

Pearson has been under fire since fall 2021 after a complaint was filed against him and former director of hockey operations Rick Bancroft about multiple allegations into the hockey program.

www.google.com

Well this is no good.

Obviously you want to let the process play out, but like the Babcock situation I think it’s pretty rare that these stories come out of thin air. Sounds like Pearson is a knob. The lack of accountability in Michigan athletics is very disheartening, like Hockey Canada I think you’ve got to overhaul the personnel to see real change.

Very brave of Mann to speak up about the program at his age and in his circumstances.

"The Return of Harbaugh" has been bad enough, but "The Return of Pearson" is worse. Ugh.

My buddy I graduated with was the Director of Hockey Operations through Mel's first year as head coach, before he left after like 15 years working for the hockey program. Mel was always known to be a firebrand, going back to his many years as an assistant under Red, but I never heard about any garbage like this. Now I've got some questions for him next time I see him, heh.

Disheartening indeed. Regardless of what conclusions are drawn from all of this, Mel has already been discovered to be a liar in multiple cases, including one where he was planning to retaliate against Mann. The man is clearly devoid of any integrity. F*** Mel. And Rick Bancroft? Yeah that dude has been there forever and has always been sketchy at best. No surprise that he turned out to be a scumbag.

 

[Winger98]

There have been calls for people's jobs over the years in Detroit. I always feel awkward about this, they are people. But, honestly how in the **** does Al still have his job? Like seriously...

When I talk about worrying about Chris Ilitch the Owner, yeah the Tigers aren't exactly setting my world on fire. I have to remind myself that Mike struggled with the Tigers out of the gate, but this ain't good. I don't really pay as much attention to basketball or baseball. I still check the local team from my childhood scores, but it is hard not to look at it from a far more neutral perspective than years ago and see this disaster that is Avila. I mean how much longer are we seriously going to watch this? Chris are you awake?

Are we waiting for the Mikko Koskinen Peter Chiarelli moment? It feels like we have hit those depths for the hockey comparison.

Fulmer is a going to be a free agent reliever this winter who is good but doesn't seem to be great. The return clearly isn't great but it feels like folks are expecting the sort of return we would have gotten several years ago before injury derailed his career as a front of the rotation starter.

I don't think Avila is a great GM, but unless ilitch was going to invest way more money I don't really see the last five years being greatly different. I think we're finally getting good people throughout the system, though.

 

[Ricelund]

Fulmer is a going to be a free agent reliever this winter who is good but doesn't seem to be great. The return clearly isn't great but it feels like folks are expecting the sort of return we would have gotten several years ago before injury derailed his career as a front of the rotation starter.

It's really not that. I didn't expect a huge return for Fulmer. I just expected a prospect with some hope, not more garbage. The Tigers have plenty of that already.

I don't think Avila is a great GM, but unless ilitch was going to invest way more money I don't really see the last five years being greatly different. I think we're finally getting good people throughout the system, though.

I think everyone accepted that they needed to rebuild. Detroit fans are generally willing to tolerate some down years if good comes out of it. Look at the Wings.

What's pathetic about the Tigers is they only have Riley Greene and Skubal to show for it. Literally everyone else, including the big FA signings, have shown almost nothing in the MLB, are injured, or have serious concerns around their games.

Do you see any evidence that they're on the upswing? It certainly doesn't feel like it. A good GM would've turned Verlander, Martinez, Greene, Kinsler, Upton, and all the others into at least one building block for the future. Instead, Al managed to get Jeimer Candelario, who's a non-tender candidate at this point. What are Dawel Lugo, Daz Cameron, and Franklin Perez up to? A good GM finds players outside of top-ten picks. The Tigers found... Alex Faedo, Beau Burrows, and the recently DFA'd Derek Hill.

This is ignoring the fact that Al totally fumbled the second offseason where he was allowed to spend money. I don't think it tops the first but it comes close. Baez is going to be another boat anchor just as Cabrera comes off the books. E-Rod is MIA. Meadows has 0 homers in a whole 36 games. Barnhart has a .494 OPS. Schoop has a .560 OPS. Baddoo has a .408 OPS. Grossman had a .595 OPS before being traded for nothing. Pineda is a negative WAR pitcher. Harold f***ing Castro is their best hitter with a .706 OPS this season. This is SEVEN YEARS into a rebuild.

Ironically, Al lucked into a good bullpen (thank you, Fetter) -- exactly what the Tigers needed 10 years ago.

On the other hand, look at the Orioles. They started rebuilding around the same time as the Tigers. They're 53-51. Rutschman is crushing it. They have seven guys with a WAR over 1.5. The Tigers have none. Eric Haase leads the team with 1.4. Their $140 million shortstop is second at 1.1.

Oh, and the Orioles payroll is dead last in the MLB. They're spending nearly $100 million less than the Tigers this year.

I think you're kidding yourself if you have hopes for any of the prospects outside of Torkelson and maybe Dingler. Jobe has sucked in Single-A. Glad they passed on Marcelo Mayer.

I don't know what more you need to see. They clearly need to make a change.

 

[Hen Kolland]

It's really not that. I didn't expect a huge return for Fulmer. I just expected a prospect with some hope, not more garbage. The Tigers have plenty of that already.

You’d think they’d be taking gambles on bats considering the reason this rebuild has failed miserably is because we can’t scout or develop them on our own

 

[ricky0034]

It's really not that. I didn't expect a huge return for Fulmer. I just expected a prospect with some hope, not more garbage. The Tigers have plenty of that already.



I think everyone accepted that they needed to rebuild. Detroit fans are generally willing to tolerate some down years if good comes out of it. Look at the Wings.

What's pathetic about the Tigers is they only have Riley Greene and Skubal to show for it. Literally everyone else, including the big FA signings, have shown almost nothing in the MLB, are injured, or have serious concerns around their games.

Do you see any evidence that they're on the upswing? It certainly doesn't feel like it. A good GM would've turned Verlander, Martinez, Greene, Kinsler, Upton, and all the others into at least one building block for the future. Instead, Al managed to get Jeimer Candelario, who's a non-tender candidate at this point. What are Dawel Lugo, Daz Cameron, and Franklin Perez up to? A good GM finds players outside of top-ten picks. The Tigers found... Alex Faedo, Beau Burrows, and the recently DFA'd Derek Hill.

This is ignoring the fact that Al totally fumbled the second offseason where he was allowed to spend money. I don't think it tops the first but it comes close. Baez is going to be another boat anchor just as Cabrera comes off the books. E-Rod is MIA. Meadows has 0 homers in a whole 36 games. Barnhart has a .494 OPS. Schoop has a .560 OPS. Baddoo has a .408 OPS. Grossman had a .595 OPS before being traded for nothing. Pineda is a negative WAR pitcher. Harold f***ing Castro is their best hitter with a .706 OPS this season. This is SEVEN YEARS into a rebuild.

Ironically, Al lucked into a good bullpen (thank you, Fetter) -- exactly what the Tigers needed 10 years ago.

On the other hand, look at the Orioles. They started rebuilding around the same time as the Tigers. They're 53-51. Rutschman is crushing it. They have seven guys with a WAR over 1.5. The Tigers have none. Eric Haase leads the team with 1.4. Their $140 million shortstop is second at 1.1

I think you're kidding yourself if you have hopes for any of the prospects outside of Torkelson and maybe Dingler. Jobe has sucked in Single-A. Glad they passed on Marcelo Mayer.

I don't know what more you need to see. They clearly need to make a change.

as someone who has never followed Football the Tigers this year have had me thinking "this must be what being a Lions fan feels like"

ironically people seem fairly positive about the Lions lately so I guess it's even worse at this point

 

[Ricelund]

as someone who has never followed Football the Tigers this year have had me thinking "this must be what being a Lions fan feels like"

ironically people seem fairly positive about the Lions lately so I guess it's even worse at this point

Agreed. I've never been a Lions guy but Avila is giving off Big Millen Energy.

 

[Hen Kolland]

When it comes to the Tigers, Chris Ilitch has fully moved into the Ford territory. I view Avila as being worse than Millen, because while Millen did questionable things, he never foreshadowed or outright told his competitors what he planned on doing and undercut his own efforts.

Avila has done it almost every single year. It’s beyond irritating. It’s infuriating. And while Chris drags ass around without fully committing to spending to improve substantially, without demanding any level of accountability, and ultimately become a standard corporate shill. He sells bullshit and lies to the fan base and thinks he will get away with it over and over and over again.

 

[Winger98]

It's really not that. I didn't expect a huge return for Fulmer. I just expected a prospect with some hope, not more garbage. The Tigers have plenty of that already.



I think everyone accepted that they needed to rebuild. Detroit fans are generally willing to tolerate some down years if good comes out of it. Look at the Wings.

What's pathetic about the Tigers is they only have Riley Greene and Skubal to show for it. Literally everyone else, including the big FA signings, have shown almost nothing in the MLB, are injured, or have serious concerns around their games.

Do you see any evidence that they're on the upswing? It certainly doesn't feel like it. A good GM would've turned Verlander, Martinez, Greene, Kinsler, Upton, and all the others into at least one building block for the future. Instead, Al managed to get Jeimer Candelario, who's a non-tender candidate at this point. What are Dawel Lugo, Daz Cameron, and Franklin Perez up to? A good GM finds players outside of top-ten picks. The Tigers found... Alex Faedo, Beau Burrows, and the recently DFA'd Derek Hill.

This is ignoring the fact that Al totally fumbled the second offseason where he was allowed to spend money. I don't think it tops the first but it comes close. Baez is going to be another boat anchor just as Cabrera comes off the books. E-Rod is MIA. Meadows has 0 homers in a whole 36 games. Barnhart has a .494 OPS. Schoop has a .560 OPS. Baddoo has a .408 OPS. Grossman had a .595 OPS before being traded for nothing. Pineda is a negative WAR pitcher. Harold f***ing Castro is their best hitter with a .706 OPS this season. This is SEVEN YEARS into a rebuild.

Ironically, Al lucked into a good bullpen (thank you, Fetter) -- exactly what the Tigers needed 10 years ago.

On the other hand, look at the Orioles. They started rebuilding around the same time as the Tigers. They're 53-51. Rutschman is crushing it. They have seven guys with a WAR over 1.5. The Tigers have none. Eric Haase leads the team with 1.4. Their $140 million shortstop is second at 1.1

I think you're kidding yourself if you have hopes for any of the prospects outside of Torkelson and maybe Dingler. Jobe has sucked in Single-A. Glad they passed on Marcelo Mayer.

I don't know what more you need to see. They clearly need to make a change.

We have went over this before and you still don't counter my arguments from the previous posts. You don't acknowledge how bad the Tigers farm system was, how long it takes prospects to typically reach the majors, the context of any of the deals, or the actual likelihood that we do get a good/great player back for dealing any of them.

You just say, "Look at this name!" Yeah, Verlander was seen as a once great pitcher on the backside of his career with a massive contract who also had control in deciding where he went. We pulled the 3rd, 9th, and 11th ranked prospects from what was one of the most respected systems and prospect groups in baseball. It didn't work out. Like it doesn't for the vast majority of deals when stars are dealt for lotto tickets. Look at how much value the Marlins got when they dealt us Cabrera and WIllis. That's not atypical. That's the norm.

It's also a laugh that you're thanking a coach for the bullpen but slamming the gm when several position players greatly underperform their norms. And that you're pumping the O's tires right now when that was nearly the exact same situation the Tigers were in last year.

It typically takes a prospect around five years to reach the majors. The Tigers had no one coming up when Avila took over, there was no one to fill in for those first five years. You want to can Avila? Don't really care. But when you're building a team up from essentially nothing with an owner who doesn't seem to want to really invest...yeah, it's going to take forever and it's going to suck. The plus side is that Avila seems to finally have a better vision for where to go, especially since hiring Hinch. They are finally talking about having consistent coaching through the minors and have genuinely embraced analytics a bit more. Too little too late? Probably, but the framework is finally being put in place for whoever is the GM going forward.

And you want to knock us signing Baez...why do you think we signed Baez instead of Correa? What's the most likely reason? Because to me that looks like an owner didn't want to sign off on the bigger contract.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We have went over this before and you still don't counter my arguments from the previous posts. You don't acknowledge how bad the Tigers farm system was, how long it takes prospects to typically reach the majors, the context of any of the deals, or the actual likelihood that we do get a good/great player back for dealing any of them.

You just say, "Look at this name!" Yeah, Verlander was seen as a once great pitcher on the backside of his career with a massive contract who also had control in deciding where he went. We pulled the 3rd, 9th, and 11th ranked prospects from what was one of the most respected systems and prospect groups in baseball. It didn't work out. Like it doesn't for the vast majority of deals when stars are dealt for lotto tickets. Look at how much value the Marlins got when they dealt us Cabrera and WIllis. That's not atypical. That's the norm.

It's also a laugh that you're thanking a coach for the bullpen but slamming the gm when several position players greatly underperform their norms. And that you're pumping the O's tires right now when that was nearly the exact same situation the Tigers were in last year.

It typically takes a prospect around five years to reach the majors. The Tigers had no one coming up when Avila took over, there was no one to fill in for those first five years. You want to can Avila? Don't really care. But when you're building a team up from essentially nothing with an owner who doesn't seem to want to really invest...yeah, it's going to take forever and it's going to suck. The plus side is that Avila seems to finally have a better vision for where to go, especially since hiring Hinch. They are finally talking about having consistent coaching through the minors and have genuinely embraced analytics a bit more. Too little too late? Probably, but the framework is finally being put in place for whoever is the GM going forward.

And you want to knock us signing Baez...why do you think we signed Baez instead of Correa? What's the most likely reason? Because to me that looks like an owner didn't want to sign off on the bigger contract.

My problem with Al is this.

He had Verlander, Upton, Price, Martinez, etc. Like five or six fantastic All-Star players. I know that prospects for big leaguers usually fails, but honestly, you've got to hit on ONE of those trades where you dumped those guys. It's kind of like how Holland couldn't get a single D upgrade. I understood why he didn't make the trade for Bouwmeester or for Niskanen or Phaneuf or for any individual player. But that doesn't somehow make it acceptable that he didn't improve the spot and he doubled back and gave a raise to a really terrible Kyle Quincey.

And Verlander was seen as that pretty stupidly. He had a core muscle injury which took 1.5-2 years to recover to 100%. He was on the backside of his career for the Tigers because they didn't have the time/money to let him toil away for nothing but a lot of money. I mean, he won a Cy Young like the next year after he left Detroit.

The best piece he landed was Jeimer Candelario for trading Justin Wilson who was basically an afterthough BP pickup for them.

They didn't have any pieces in the farm system when he took over, that's fair. What pieces do they have in the farm system now? If they sucked for five years because Dombrowski emptied the cupboard, that's okay, where are those guys now? Shouldn't we have young guys in our system who are starting to be on the verge of breaking out? We have Skubal. That's pretty much it.

And they've just routinely held onto guys way way way way too long. They held onto Fulmer and now got some jank ass A ball pitcher who probably won't even make the big league roster for him. Trade him in, what 2018, when he's on a rebuilding team and he's a bulldog starting pitcher, you get just below Gleyber Torres in return. They didn't trade him because they asked for Torres and couldn't get him. Matthew Boyd was a legitimately decent starting pitcher for a minute... then you let him walk for nothing.

I don't think the Tigers have anything resembling a plan going forward and I sincerely doubt the efficacy of their scouting and analytics teams.

 

[jaster]

Avila's player evaluation skills are just awful. His own players, other teams players, draft-eligible players.... we have enough data points now, a large enough sample size, he can't evaluate talent, nor project it, at a level a GM should be able to. Sure, we can sit here and go over every individual action he's taken as GM and explain each one away. But at some point the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. In a bad way in this example.

 

[jkutswings]

Sure, we can sit here and go over every individual action he's taken as GM and explain each one away. But at some point the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Avila: Death by a Thousand Cuts...the Sequel?

 

[RabidBadger]

My problem with Al is this.

He had Verlander, Upton, Price, Martinez, etc. Like five or six fantastic All-Star players. I know that prospects for big leaguers usually fails, but honestly, you've got to hit on ONE of those trades where you dumped those guys. It's kind of like how Holland couldn't get a single D upgrade. I understood why he didn't make the trade for Bouwmeester or for Niskanen or Phaneuf or for any individual player. But that doesn't somehow make it acceptable that he didn't improve the spot and he doubled back and gave a raise to a really terrible Kyle Quincey.

And Verlander was seen as that pretty stupidly. He had a core muscle injury which took 1.5-2 years to recover to 100%. He was on the backside of his career for the Tigers because they didn't have the time/money to let him toil away for nothing but a lot of money. I mean, he won a Cy Young like the next year after he left Detroit.

The best piece he landed was Jeimer Candelario for trading Justin Wilson who was basically an afterthough BP pickup for them.

They didn't have any pieces in the farm system when he took over, that's fair. What pieces do they have in the farm system now? If they sucked for five years because Dombrowski emptied the cupboard, that's okay, where are those guys now? Shouldn't we have young guys in our system who are starting to be on the verge of breaking out? We have Skubal. That's pretty much it.

And they've just routinely held onto guys way way way way too long. They held onto Fulmer and now got some jank ass A ball pitcher who probably won't even make the big league roster for him. Trade him in, what 2018, when he's on a rebuilding team and he's a bulldog starting pitcher, you get just below Gleyber Torres in return. They didn't trade him because they asked for Torres and couldn't get him. Matthew Boyd was a legitimately decent starting pitcher for a minute... then you let him walk for nothing.

I don't think the Tigers have anything resembling a plan going forward and I sincerely doubt the efficacy of their scouting and analytics teams.

What you said!

I was patient with Avila the first 3-4 years because of the sad state of the prospect pool. After 7 years that hasn't amounted to much.

Trades? Gahhh! I don't care about how well the prospects he traded for were ranked; if they don't amount to squat, potential means nothing. Given the sheer volume of trades, and the quality of players traded away, there should be something to show for it.

Free agent signings? (Loud, wrong answer buzzer noise). I'll give any GM 3-4 years to right the ship when you step into a rebuild. He's had over double that time and we have, to quote Bruce Campbell, jack and shit...and jack just left town.

 

[Ricelund]

We have went over this before and you still don't counter my arguments from the previous posts. You don't acknowledge how bad the Tigers farm system was, how long it takes prospects to typically reach the majors, the context of any of the deals, or the actual likelihood that we do get a good/great player back for dealing any of them.

You just say, "Look at this name!" Yeah, Verlander was seen as a once great pitcher on the backside of his career with a massive contract who also had control in deciding where he went. We pulled the 3rd, 9th, and 11th ranked prospects from what was one of the most respected systems and prospect groups in baseball. It didn't work out. Like it doesn't for the vast majority of deals when stars are dealt for lotto tickets. Look at how much value the Marlins got when they dealt us Cabrera and WIllis. That's not atypical. That's the norm.

It's also a laugh that you're thanking a coach for the bullpen but slamming the gm when several position players greatly underperform their norms. And that you're pumping the O's tires right now when that was nearly the exact same situation the Tigers were in last year.

It typically takes a prospect around five years to reach the majors. The Tigers had no one coming up when Avila took over, there was no one to fill in for those first five years. You want to can Avila? Don't really care. But when you're building a team up from essentially nothing with an owner who doesn't seem to want to really invest...yeah, it's going to take forever and it's going to suck. The plus side is that Avila seems to finally have a better vision for where to go, especially since hiring Hinch. They are finally talking about having consistent coaching through the minors and have genuinely embraced analytics a bit more. Too little too late? Probably, but the framework is finally being put in place for whoever is the GM going forward.

And you want to knock us signing Baez...why do you think we signed Baez instead of Correa? What's the most likely reason? Because to me that looks like an owner didn't want to sign off on the bigger contract.

I think your defense of Avila really comes down to this:

“Sure, nearly every single signing, trade, or draft pick he’s made over the past seven (SEVEN) years hasn’t panned out. But a couple of their top 10 draft picks look like they might be good some day. Can’t fault the guy for bad luck.”

I can’t get behind that.

 

[lhsgolf19]

For those who missed it... Mel Pearson relieved of his duties with UM (really messy investigation).

But, the rumor is Blash really wants the job... I personally believe that would be a Home Run for UM.

 

[Ricelund]

For those who missed it... Mel Pearson relieved of his duties with UM (really messy investigation).

But, the rumor is Blash really wants the job... I personally believe that would be a Home Run for UM.

I can't see him leaving the Tampa job right after taking it.

 

[jaster]

For those who missed it... Mel Pearson relieved of his duties with UM (really messy investigation).

But, the rumor is Blash really wants the job... I personally believe that would be a Home Run for UM.

This forum has had an effect on me. I read "Blash" as "Babs" in your post and nearly had a conniption fit

 

[FireBird71]

For those who missed it... Mel Pearson relieved of his duties with UM (really messy investigation).

But, the rumor is Blash really wants the job... I personally believe that would be a Home Run for UM.

From what I’ve seen it’s probably going to be Assistant Brandon Naurato

 

[lhsgolf19]

From what I’ve seen it’s probably going to be Assistant Brandon Naurato

Yeah probably, but all I'm saying is I've read Blashill has made it known to UM he wants the job.

 

[FireBird71]

Former Michigan player Mike Van Ryn is interested in the Job….him plus Nauruto and Muckalt would be great

 

[lhsgolf19]

not really a surprise, 37 year old Brandon Naurato named interim UM Coach

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Curious to see how Luke Hughes’ ransengan develops.

 

[Ricelund]

Would've loved to see the Tigers take a flier on Reyes.

 

[Winger98]

I think your defense of Avila really comes down to this:

“Sure, nearly every single signing, trade, or draft pick he’s made over the past seven (SEVEN) years hasn’t panned out. But a couple of their top 10 draft picks look like they might be good some day. Can’t fault the guy for bad luck.”

I can’t get behind that.

No, I think people have unrealistic expectations with what Avila had to work with and they criticize the wrong things. On the one hand they will look at deals like the Verlander and Martinez deals and admit that those deals typically don't result in a whole lot going to the team dealing them while turning around and lamenting why we didn't get an organizational foundation piece in return. They complain about the free agents without looking at what they actually did here, comparing it to their career norms, and seeing the majority actually provided pretty close to what should have been expected of them. Unless the guy got hurt, and then people act like GMs should know a guy is going to get hurt before they sign him.

Want to criticize Avila, hit him for his drafting philosophy of going way pitcher heavy with all of the risks of those pitchers being derailed by injuries. Or for trying to be Dombrowski 2.0 for too long, sticking with Ausmus, and not beginning to seriously revamp the Tigers farm and coaching systems until a few years ago (which, ironically enough, seemed to start with Gardenhire before being kicked into gear with the signing of Hinch).

Avila will probably be canned after this season, but I think his real problematic years were the first few. The organizational changes the past few years were needed and the next GM will benefit for them. The issues this year with nearly every position player underperforming...I don't even know where to start putting blame for that but the GM will take the fall for it.

I'm not really worried about Manning or Mize, though. Manning is already pitching again and coming back from Tommy John surgery is a pretty common thing now. Faedo's hip issues worry me more. Torkelson's season has been a gut punch, though.

 

[YpsiWings]

No, I think people have unrealistic expectations with what Avila had to work with and they criticize the wrong things. On the one hand they will look at deals like the Verlander and Martinez deals and admit that those deals typically don't result in a whole lot going to the team dealing them while turning around and lamenting why we didn't get an organizational foundation piece in return. They complain about the free agents without looking at what they actually did here, comparing it to their career norms, and seeing the majority actually provided pretty close to what should have been expected of them. Unless the guy got hurt, and then people act like GMs should know a guy is going to get hurt before they sign him.

Want to criticize Avila, hit him for his drafting philosophy of going way pitcher heavy with all of the risks of those pitchers being derailed by injuries. Or for trying to be Dombrowski 2.0 for too long, sticking with Ausmus, and not beginning to seriously revamp the Tigers farm and coaching systems until a few years ago (which, ironically enough, seemed to start with Gardenhire before being kicked into gear with the signing of Hinch).

Avila will probably be canned after this season, but I think his real problematic years were the first few. The organizational changes the past few years were needed and the next GM will benefit for them. The issues this year with nearly every position player underperforming...I don't even know where to start putting blame for that but the GM will take the fall for it.

I'm not really worried about Manning or Mize, though. Manning is already pitching again and coming back from Tommy John surgery is a pretty common thing now. Faedo's hip issues worry me more. Torkelson's season has been a gut punch, though.

Great post, I agree. The thing that annoys me most about the biggest Avila detractors (not to say Avila is above criticism, clearly he is), is how they point to the returns on the Verlander and Martinez trades being awful while failing to realize where the market was. The playoff races had pretty much been decided, it was the largest buyers market I have ever seen. It is asinine to criticize a GM for not making a deal when there was never one on the table.

Avila has clearly failed, he has had enough time to put together a team, this is ridiculous. Having said that, he took over a team with the absolute worst farm team in the league, and the few trade chips he had was in one of the biggest buyers market seasons in recent memory. That makes it a rough start to rebuild.

Edit: That second quote is from me, not Winger98, my phone is being stupid. Accidentally quoted him twice and when I tried to fix it, wasn’t happening.