OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship

izlez

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Feb 28, 2012
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Haven’t seen anyone hating. Seen a lot of people who can’t comprehend arguments, I’ll add you to the list.

I actually want to see Stafford succeed with an organization that put support around him. All the times we heard about how Stafford needs a run game, Stafford needs more weapons, Stafford needs a defense…well we see what that looks like now. He’s likely playing in the Super Bowl because the Niners offense doesn’t belong. But this is something that was always achievable for him considering his talent level. That doesn’t change the fact that he was still treated like Goldilocks in Detroit. Everything had to be juuuuust right and he couldn’t be held accountable because it never was.
Things didn't need to be "juuuuust right". They needed to be not terrible. They were 0-16 the year before he took over and 3-13-1 the year after he left. Those 6 to 9 win seasons were him pulling a garbage organization "out of the depths".

We see a #1 overall pick in Goff clearly not be as good as Stafford. We see #1 overall pick in Murray get destroyed by Stafford. We see the GOAT in Brady get beat by Stafford stepping up in the biggest moment. Guess what, they all have bad plays and bad games. Nitpicking everything not-great he's ever done is just ignoring the reality that everyone has bad plays and holds him to some unrealistic standard that Brady himself can't meet
 
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Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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Haven’t seen anyone hating. Seen a lot of people who can’t comprehend arguments, I’ll add you to the list.

I actually want to see Stafford succeed with an organization that put support around him. All the times we heard about how Stafford needs a run game, Stafford needs more weapons, Stafford needs a defense…well we see what that looks like now. He’s likely playing in the Super Bowl because the Niners offense doesn’t belong. But this is something that was always achievable for him considering his talent level. That doesn’t change the fact that he was still treated like Goldilocks in Detroit. Everything had to be juuuuust right and he couldn’t be held accountable because it never was.

couldn’t be held accountable? The f***? We spent 12 years hearing how Stafford couldn’t beat winning teams and he was dogshit in big moments. While he racked up 34 4th quarter comebacks (5th overall behind guys like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers)

People are saying you couldn’t blame Stafford for the team sucking because the team was built like a house of cards. Or that you shouldn’t just junk Stafford for like Nathan Peterman because the Lions weren’t generally dropping games because of #9. Even when he made back-breaking mistakes… to be at the point you’re making those mistakes, you have to do things right to get to that point.

People don’t understand your argument here, because you’ve got the goalposts on a dolly and you’re moving them back and forth.

Matthew Stafford is a very good NFL player. He personally has the talent to lead a team to win a title. He also makes enough mistakes that he can sink a team.

The Lions as a team were a complete joke with the exception of two years for his whole tenure here. They couldn’t run the football whatsoever (64 games plus without a 100 yard rusher) and they didn’t generate turnovers.
 
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Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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couldn’t be held accountable? The f***? We spent 12 years hearing how Stafford couldn’t beat winning teams and he was dogshit in big moments. While he racked up 34 4th quarter comebacks (5th overall behind guys like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers)

People are saying you couldn’t blame Stafford for the team sucking because the team was built like a house of cards. Or that you shouldn’t just junk Stafford for like Nathan Peterman because the Lions weren’t generally dropping games because of #9. Even when he made back-breaking mistakes… to be at the point you’re making those mistakes, you have to do things right to get to that point.

People don’t understand your argument here, because you’ve got the goalposts on a dolly and you’re moving them back and forth.

Matthew Stafford is a very good NFL player. He personally has the talent to lead a team to win a title. He also makes enough mistakes that he can sink a team.

The Lions as a team were a complete joke with the exception of two years for his whole tenure here. They couldn’t run the football whatsoever (64 games plus without a 100 yard rusher) and they didn’t generate turnovers.

My goalposts haven’t moved once. I’ve not for a second said he was a bad player. I’ve said multiple times that he was actually a good player. I also said he was part of the problem in that he wasn’t part of the solution. The fact that you keep arguing this is just scrambling on your part trying to poke holes in it. And I haven’t had to change my position through any of it. Because a lot of the things your saying are things that I agree with, but that doesn’t mean I absolve him of being part of what happened (or more appropriately, didn’t happen) in Detroit. That team had chances to overcome multiple times, and time and time again we watched the team fall flat on their face. Most of the time it was coaching or the defense or a skill player, but there were moments when it was Stafford. And that made him part of the problem.

Don’t get your heckles up and attack me because you choose to believe I’m saying something I’m not. Now that he’s better insulated with talent from all sides, his talent and ability shines more. He finally has everything that people said that he needed to be successful. We can see the player he has been capable of being. And I hope he continues to do it.
 

jaster

I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
Jun 8, 2007
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Sure, if you ignore how much more impactful a quarterback is than a center in hockey. You’re talking about the general of the team that touches and commands the offense on 50% of the plays.

But if you want to run with that argument, sure let’s do it. Larkin is a problem in the sense that he is good but not good enough to pull a team out of the depths. If the goal is to make and win playoff games, being just “good” is not the same as “good enough”. If you aren’t “good enough” does that not make you part of the problem?

We can get philosophical on this as long as you’d like. At the end of the day, I’ve watched every single game the Lions have played in Stafford’s career and he’s cost them in plenty of big moments. Again, I’ll never say he was bad. He just wasn’t the fix for this team. He’s plenty good enough to be the fix for another team. The organization is still the biggest part of the problem.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle, which I attempted and apparently failed to illustrate with the Larkin comparison.

Outside of generational talents, you can make a case that every player on every team in every sport is "part of the problem." But at that point, you've diluted the phrase "part of the problem" down to the point where it is simply meaningless.

Like Larkin, Stafford is not a generational talent. But he is plenty good enough to win with. Calling these guys "part of the problem" is silly, because they aren't one of the primary reasons, or even secondary reasons, that their team is being held back. I'd theorize there's probably a point where watching the Lions too much leaves you unable to see the forest from the trees on this. The organization's ineptitude over the years has been many, many magnitudes worse than any deficiencies you can pluck from Stafford's game. Stafford over the years has been hampered by combinations of poor managing, poor head coaching, poor lines, poor receivers, poor playcalling. Over and over. His talent and compete level has actually made a lot of those massive deficiencies look not as bad at times.

The Lions suck. They've always sucked. In so many ways at once most of the time. But they've had legit players at times. Winners. Gamers. Guys who never escaped Detroit and never had a chance to shine on the biggest stage (or even kinda sorta large stages). Barry. Megatron. And while Stafford is not on the level of the former two, I'm happy to see him get out and show what he can do with a franchise that isn't a laughingstock. The Lions didn't deserve Stafford (and definitely didn't deserve Barry or Megatron). The Lions deserve Jared Goff.

For the 30+ years I've followed the Lions, the best they've offered fans is a handful of premier players, several instances of false hope, and a move from Pontiac to Detroit. At worst, they've offered misery and embarrassment. The fans deserve better, but the bar is so low that they get regularly excited about nothingburgers now, like draft picks and mediocre coaches. Until the organization can raise the bar to some form of respectability, f*** the Lions and their decades-long campaign to spin their wheels.
 

jaster

I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
Jun 8, 2007
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TBF, the Lions aren't winning, with or without Stafford.

As long as the Fords own them...the Lions will Lion. At least the Wings are somewhat competitive (if they can finish 0.500, that's something), and the Tigers, even the Pistons have some flashes.

But the Lions? Why, why, why do people expect anything to happen with them.

Exactly. The Lions have succeeded in defeating only one thing. Their own fans. They have large swaths of their fans trapped in a state of repeated false hope and some belief that they are about to turn a corner most of the time. I mean, look at how many people believe Stafford was part of the problem lol. It's been going on since Coleman Effing Young was mayor. They truly don't deserve the fandom that they have.
 
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Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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You're looking at it from the wrong angle, which I attempted and apparently failed to illustrate with the Larkin comparison.

Outside of generational talents, you can make a case that every player on every team in every sport is "part of the problem." But at that point, you've diluted the phrase "part of the problem" down to the point where it is simply meaningless.

Like Larkin, Stafford is not a generational talent. But he is plenty good enough to win with. Calling these guys "part of the problem" is silly, because they aren't one of the primary reasons, or even secondary reasons, that their team is being held back. I'd theorize there's probably a point where watching the Lions too much leaves you unable to see the forest from the trees on this. The organization's ineptitude over the years has been many, many magnitudes worse than any deficiencies you can pluck from Stafford's game. Stafford over the years has been hampered by combinations of poor managing, poor head coaching, poor lines, poor receivers, poor playcalling. Over and over. His talent and compete level has actually made a lot of those massive deficiencies look not as bad at times.

The Lions suck. They've always sucked. In so many ways at once most of the time. But they've had legit players at times. Winners. Gamers. Guys who never escaped Detroit and never had a chance to shine on the biggest stage (or even kinda sorta large stages). Barry. Megatron. And while Stafford is not on the level of the former two, I'm happy to see him get out and show what he can do with a franchise that isn't a laughingstock. The Lions didn't deserve Stafford (and definitely didn't deserve Barry or Megatron). The Lions deserve Jared Goff.

For the 30+ years I've followed the Lions, the best they've offered fans is a handful of premier players, several instances of false hope, and a move from Pontiac to Detroit. At worst, they've offered misery and embarrassment. The fans deserve better, but the bar is so low that they get regularly excited about nothingburgers now, like draft picks and mediocre coaches. Until the organization can raise the bar to some form of respectability, f*** the Lions and their decades-long campaign to spin their wheels.

I’m going to post this and let everyone move on with life.

What you guys are saying is that the team is bad to the point that it doesn’t matter who fills what position, they are doomed to fail. Which I agree with entirely. Because again, I put a majority of the blame on the organization, not on Stafford, but he’s also not blameless. He plays the single most important position in team sports, and that carries a significant amount of responsibility. Where your gaffes aren’t just individual gaffes. Larkin’s gaffes hurt, Stafford’s gaffes lose. These are just names because it’s what you had brought up, the same applies to any QB or hockey player. If you can say that there aren’t mistakes that Stafford made that cost the team a chance to win, well then I don’t know what to say. Which is why again, this is the last post.

Let’s move on and just hope that he finishes the job for the Rams. If there’s ever a guy who deserves a real chance, it would be him. He was a face for the City of Detroit and did so admirably. Great dude, great talent.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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I’m going to post this and let everyone move on with life.

What you guys are saying is that the team is bad to the point that it doesn’t matter who fills what position, they are doomed to fail. Which I agree with entirely. Because again, I put a majority of the blame on the organization, not on Stafford, but he’s also not blameless. He plays the single most important position in team sports, and that carries a significant amount of responsibility. Where your gaffes aren’t just individual gaffes. Larkin’s gaffes hurt, Stafford’s gaffes lose. These are just names because it’s what you had brought up, the same applies to any QB or hockey player. If you can say that there aren’t mistakes that Stafford made that cost the team a chance to win, well then I don’t know what to say. Which is why again, this is the last post.

Let’s move on and just hope that he finishes the job for the Rams. If there’s ever a guy who deserves a real chance, it would be him. He was a face for the City of Detroit and did so admirably. Great dude, great talent.

This is dangerously close to Reece Bobby "If you're not first, you're last" thinking, which I hate.
 
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Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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This is dangerously close to Reece Bobby "If you're not first, you're last" thinking, which I hate.

Maybe that’s just how I’m wired, but I’m certainly not into sports because I enjoy losing and feel good stories. My goal is to watch all of these teams in Detroit win championships. So yeah, in the big picture, if we aren’t getting closer to championships, then what’s the point?
 

RabidBadger

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Sep 9, 2007
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TBF, the Lions aren't winning, with or without Stafford.

As long as the Fords own them...the Lions will Lion. At least the Wings are somewhat competitive (if they can finish 0.500, that's something), and the Tigers, even the Pistons have some flashes.

But the Lions? Why, why, why do people expect anything to happen with them.

Yeah, I'm on team Guiness. He wasn't going to take the Lions anywhere. Now: he gone, so who really gives a squat?

I think people obsess over him because he's the best the Lions have had at qb. He most definitely had wasted years here and he also failed to capitalize in important moments. I don't care how many come from behind victories he had, the game that mattered was the playoff game against Dallas. We know how that went.

If he wins the SB, good for him! He's a good dude and never bitched about his lot in life. If he goes to the SB and loses, he accomplished what Goff did on the same team.

Stafford's only real signifigance in this town at this point is what draft pick comes from his trade.
 
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Bondurant

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Not on board with the "as long as the Ford's own the Lions" argument. Sheila has ushered more wholesale change in her short tenure than the Lions have had during my entire life. Martha made steps in the right direction. She hired Ernie Acorsi to assist with hiring. Unfortunately Quinn was not the right choice. There era of letting Russ Thomas run the team for decades is over. Sheila is not William.
 

izlez

Carter Mazur Fan Club
Feb 28, 2012
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I’m going to post this and let everyone move on with life.

What you guys are saying is that the team is bad to the point that it doesn’t matter who fills what position, they are doomed to fail. Which I agree with entirely. Because again, I put a majority of the blame on the organization, not on Stafford, but he’s also not blameless. He plays the single most important position in team sports, and that carries a significant amount of responsibility. Where your gaffes aren’t just individual gaffes. Larkin’s gaffes hurt, Stafford’s gaffes lose. These are just names because it’s what you had brought up, the same applies to any QB or hockey player. If you can say that there aren’t mistakes that Stafford made that cost the team a chance to win, well then I don’t know what to say. Which is why again, this is the last post.

All of this also VERY much applies to Tom Brady (see his 20 playoff games with a QB rating below 85). And when it applies to the greatest "winner" in the history of the sport, maybe it's just an unfair criticism and not something that anyone should realistically be concerned about?
 
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jaster

I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
Jun 8, 2007
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I’m going to post this and let everyone move on with life.

What you guys are saying is that the team is bad to the point that it doesn’t matter who fills what position, they are doomed to fail. Which I agree with entirely. Because again, I put a majority of the blame on the organization, not on Stafford, but he’s also not blameless. He plays the single most important position in team sports, and that carries a significant amount of responsibility. Where your gaffes aren’t just individual gaffes. Larkin’s gaffes hurt, Stafford’s gaffes lose. These are just names because it’s what you had brought up, the same applies to any QB or hockey player. If you can say that there aren’t mistakes that Stafford made that cost the team a chance to win, well then I don’t know what to say. Which is why again, this is the last post.

Let’s move on and just hope that he finishes the job for the Rams. If there’s ever a guy who deserves a real chance, it would be him. He was a face for the City of Detroit and did so admirably. Great dude, great talent.

I get your point, but it's kinda splitting hairs. And missing the underlying point. Doesn't matter that Stafford made a mistake to cost the team a win. It is a rare QB who never, ever makes a mistake that costs their team a win. So where is the line for being "part of the problem"? One career gaffe? Ten? 50? Pretty muddy waters here.

Either Stafford was holding Detroit back, or he wasn't. That's all that really matters. I contend, despite having flaws in his game, he was not holding Detroit back. Quite the opposite. Therefor, despite having flaws in his game, he was not part of the problem.

Anyway, I'm glad you are rooting for him, because there are many Lions fans who believe what you believe and are now actively rooting against Stafford and the Rams. Those fans no doubt put ketchup on their hot dogs.
 
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jaster

I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
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Stafford's only real signifigance in this town at this point is what draft pick comes from his trade.

In theory, sure. But it's the Lions. Where exactly this draft pick lands won't matter.
 
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RabidBadger

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All of this also VERY much applies to Tom Brady (see his 20 playoff games with a QB rating below 85). And when it applies to the greatest "winner" in the history of the sport, maybe it's just an unfair criticism and not something that anyone should realistically be concerned about?

Man. That's really a stretch using Brady and Stafford as comparables in any fashion, even shortcomings. You deep-sixed your own argument by mentioning Brady's 20 playoff games. Let's compare them when Stafford hits that level of important games.

Right now it looks like comparing Petr Klima to Gordie Howe in their accomplishments as Red Wings.
 

izlez

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Feb 28, 2012
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Man. That's really a stretch using Brady and Stafford as comparables in any fashion, even shortcomings. You deep-sixed your own argument by mentioning Brady's 20 playoff games. Let's compare them when Stafford hits that level of important games.

Right now it looks like comparing Petr Klima to Gordie Howe in their accomplishments as Red Wings.
The entire discussion is around "what could've been" if he didn't play for the worst organization in the league. Pointing to his failures on the Lions defeats the entire purpose.

Mahomes had 6 games this season with a QB rating under 75. Does that make him mediocre? Not elite?
Or maybe we don't even criticize him for it because the Chiefs went 4-2 in those games because he plays on a good team and other elite quarterbacks ALSO have bad plays and bad games all the time?
 

Konnan511

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The entire discussion is around "what could've been" if he didn't play for the worst organization in the league. Pointing to his failures on the Lions defeats the entire purpose.

Mahomes had 6 games this season with a QB rating under 75. Does that make him mediocre? Not elite?
Or maybe we don't even criticize him for it because the Chiefs went 4-2 in those games because he plays on a good team and other elite quarterbacks ALSO have bad plays and bad games all the time?
Just nitpicking because it's essentially the same, he had 6 games under 50 for QBR and 6 games under 75 for Passer Rating. He even had a game where his QBR was under 8. Compare that to Stafford who had 6 games with a sub 50 QBR and 3 games with a sub 75 Passer rating, the worst being an 18 QBR.
 

Ed Ned and Leddy

Brokering the Bally Sports + Corncob TV Merger
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BTW how about Cade last night... The Young Fella has "arrived"

Joined MJ is the Only Rookies ever to get 34 points 8 rebounds 8 assists 4 blocks in a game

Also, only player (not a rookie) in history to do this


Last night was an arrival game for Cade, his best work this season. He's just such a versatile player. He can get to the basket, he's developing a nice mid-range arsenal, and he's hitting from deep at a pretty good clip. His court vision and distribution is really nice, and I think that will be even more apparent as the surrounding roster improves. Put in work defensively too.

 

FabricDetails

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Last night was an arrival game for Cade, his best work this season. He's just such a versatile player. He can get to the basket, he's developing a nice mid-range arsenal, and he's hitting from deep at a pretty good clip. His court vision and distribution is really nice, and I think that will be even more apparent as the surrounding roster improves. Put in work defensively too.



All positions are a need for that team.

But which do you think is a bigger need- An athletic big like Jabari Smith or an athletic wing like Jaden Ivey?
 
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jaster

I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
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Man. That's really a stretch using Brady and Stafford as comparables in any fashion, even shortcomings. You deep-sixed your own argument by mentioning Brady's 20 playoff games. Let's compare them when Stafford hits that level of important games.

Right now it looks like comparing Petr Klima to Gordie Howe in their accomplishments as Red Wings.

He didn't deep-six his argument in the least. In fact, he deep-six'd the other argument with a valid comparison.

If "thing X" makes a player a part of the problem, and the GOAT has experienced "thing X," then either every QB ever is part of the problem, including the GOAT, or "part of the problem" doesn't mean anything at all in this context and can be thrown in the trash.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
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He didn't deep-six his argument in the least. In fact, he deep-six'd the other argument with a valid comparison.

If "thing X" makes a player a part of the problem, and the GOAT has experienced "thing X," then either every QB ever is part of the problem, including the GOAT, or "part of the problem" doesn't mean anything at all in this context and can be thrown in the trash.

Yep. Agreed. Basically, we were saying that while Hen Kolland's assertion is technically correct, it's also a pointless distinction to make for the reason that jaster shares above.

I mean, Aaron Rodgers just gagged away his last, best chance at a Super Bowl especially with a terrible decision. He had Equanimeous St. Brown wide open and another guy (Randall Cobb?) open on an in-route for a huge first down gain. Instead, he forced the ball to Davante Adams and while it wasn't picked, it bounced away incomplete and they ended up losing. Kyler Murray had one of the worst games in his career and handed LA a TD that put the Cardinals out of that game. QBs make mistakes. And hell, if you look at a couple of the shots Stafford had... He had a 380 yard, 3 TD, 2 pick performance in a game where the defense didn't even force a punt against the Saints. That's a hell of a performance.

Hey, Brett Favre cost Minnesota a trip to the Super Bowl by gunslinging off the wrong foot across the field when they could literally have just centered the ball and their kicker put through a game winning kick. He must suck.
 
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Ed Ned and Leddy

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All positions are a need for that team.

But which do you think is a bigger need- An athletic big like Jabari Smith or an athletic wing like Jaden Ivey?

Definitely agree with you on the first part - the Pistons have plenty of holes to fill.

Positions have gotten so fluid in modern basketball, that I don't necessarily size it up as we need a #2 or we need a #4 for example. In broad strokes I kind of size up starting line-ups as comprising a primary ball-handler, a big, and three wings of varying size and athleticism. When your primary ball handler has the frame of a wing (like Cade does), you add even more flexibility to the picture.

From that perspective, I kind of view Jaden Ivey as your "small wing" (or traditional 2) and Jabari Smith Jr. as your "big wing" (or traditional 4). This very moment, I think our biggest need is a proper big (or traditional 5). Someone who can offer quality rim protection and provide a rim-running threat for Cade to lob to would make a big impact on both ends of the floor. Fortunately it's not that difficult to find a competent starter to fill that role through trade/free agency - although someone with potentially elite upside at the position, like Chet Holmgren, has real appeal.

I think that either Ivey or Smith would be seriously attractive prospects for us, but I lean slightly towards Smith at the moment. Ivey brings that unique athleticism and slashing ability to complement Cade's more cerebral playmaking in the backcourt, which would be really valuable for us. Smith offers a pick and roll threat and lights out perimeter shooting, which to me is probably a little bit more attractive. Both have their warts though. Jabari Smith Jr. laid an egg last night, I'm curious to see where Ivey's shooting numbers lie by the end of the season.
 
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