Player Discussion Matt Murray (G) - 4 years, $6.25M AAV

[senswon]

Seems like his gear is too big and his mobility is pretty barf on nights that the team struggles.
Not sure what to make of him most nights.
I honestly felt more confident with Joey in nets for some reason.

We've lost far too many 7-1 games this year.

Savez vous le trap caulice?
Time for some defensive fundamentals like WHAT DO YOU DO 5V5 WHEN YOU CAN'T CLEAR THE ZONE.

 

[Fuhrious]

This is true but Murray has been bad for a lot longer than 1/2 a season now.

His contract is also in the penthouse and should be reserved for top goalies, not a guy you hope can get on a hot streak - he should be consistently good with incredible hot streaks and the occasional cold spells.

I dont get mad at ANY player for accepting money that's offered them, or playing hardball with hockey management/ownership for the best possible deal they can get. Hell, if Austin Watson went in and negotiated a $5m/per deal tomorrow, I wouldnt be mad at HIM for still playing like Austin Watson and not suddenly morphing into PLD.

 

[BondraTime]

Seems like his gear is too big and his mobility is pretty barf on nights that the team struggles.
Not sure what to make of him most nights.
I honestly felt more confident with Joey in nets for some reason.

We've lost far too many 7-1 games this year.

Savez vous le trap caulice?

His gear is now already much smaller than it was in 2018 when the size rules changed, his gear used to be massive

 

[senswon]

His gear is now already much smaller than it was in 2018 when the size rules changed

Looks like a little guy in a big coat

 

[foggyvisor]

This is true but Murray has been bad for a lot longer than 1/2 a season now.

His contract is also in the penthouse and should be reserved for top goalies, not a guy you hope can get on a hot streak - he should be consistently good with incredible hot streaks and the occasional cold spells.

Oh I 100% believe this is why you don't give a goalie a 4 year contract.

 

[operasen]

Thanks. For me, it's very easy to see because it's things I have experienced as a goalie. You know when the team in front of you fight for every inch on the ice, when they clear out rebounds, when there's a structure in place and won't allow the house (slot) at free will. Even in beer leagues, people try to not deflect the puck in your own net and give you a chance to see the puck. They know you have to be even more careful to not turn it over in dangerous areas and not try to pass it across in the slot. I think it just goes way too fast for too many of our players. Reality is we don't have many top-6 forwards and a top-4 D-men. Stutzle, Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, Dadonov, Chabot, Brannstrom, Zub will be/should be but outside of them (most are heavily inexperienced), it's mostly bottom-6 forwards and bottom pairing D-men. We don't have a lot of seasoned/established talent. That's why I quickly got disillusioned with how the off-season went. It's not about the quantity of vets but the quality. People told me yeah but Stutzle, Norris, Batherson, etc will be given prime roles. But that's a bit the problem. They have basically no veteran to lean on, they are not "insolated" at all.

...

Note : sorry I can't like any post at the moment lol

Just wanted to say I appreciate the discussion and the points made in such a respectful way.

 

[ksens]

And agreed on "should have had that", most of the time, people making these comments have no idea. Have you ever played goalie? It seems like yu did? The only goal Murray "should have had" is the 6th goal (Neal) as it was only partially screened. It was a good shot but his reaction/positionning wasn't good enough, however he also looked totally deflated at that point. That's what happens when you get abused like that and your team has 4 meaningless shots on goal.

I'd argue a bit with this. Yes, giving the #1 player in the world clean looks from the slot is going to get you beat, and yes it is harder to fault the goalie on deflections. But Murray has structural issues with his game. Two you saw on display last night:

• His blocker and especially trapper are behind his body a lot, versus being forward and engaged. As a result he's getting beat there a lot - I think his glove reflexes are subpar in general, but there are ways to compensate for that.
• When he goes in to blocking save positions there are a lot of holes. Sure, there were tipped shots last night but they weren't all tipped bar down; they went through Murray. That should not be happening.

That being said our team was so bad last night it doesn't matter - you can't even remotely pin that loss on bad play by Murray. But at the same time he's on a huge $6M contract and if you look at expected versus actual GA Murray is not playing any better than someone we could be paying $2M for. He needs to be better, and it isn't all on the D.

 

[OD99]

I dont get mad at ANY player for accepting money that's offered them, or playing hardball with hockey management/ownership for the best possible deal they can get. Hell, if Austin Watson went in and negotiated a $5m/per deal tomorrow, I wouldnt be mad at HIM for still playing like Austin Watson and not suddenly morphing into PLD.

Not sure if you intended this for me but I have no anger or personal animosity at all and don't believe I gave any indication that I do.

At the end of the day contracts matter, particularly for a small market team like Ottawa. In this case there wasn't really any goalie on the market that we should have given that contract to for a few reasons:

1. It is to expensive
2. We are not close to contending for playoffs let alone the Cup
3. Murray's recent history in no way merits it

He is still playing worse than I would have hoped but that doesn't really matter, he would have to be lights out all the time to come close to it - not his problem specifically but an org problem and one that fans are absolutely in their right to question.

 

[Fuhrious]

Not sure if you intended this for me but I have no anger or personal animosity at all and don't believe I gave any indication that I do.

At the end of the day contracts matter, particularly for a small market team like Ottawa. In this case there wasn't really any goalie on the market that we should have given that contract to for a few reasons:

1. It is to expensive
2. We are not close to contending for playoffs let alone the Cup
3. Murray's recent history in no way merits it

He is still playing worse than I would have hoped but that doesn't really matter, he would have to be lights out all the time to come close to it - not his problem specifically but an org problem and one that fans are absolutely in their right to question.

Yep, I was replying to you. Perhaps I misunderstood, or associated your post with some of the ire I see directed at Murray here lately, I guess I wanted to emphasize that I hold Dorion responsible for the bullet points you list above...not Murray himself.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

“It's always difficult to see a guy leave, I got on well with PG (Pierre Groulx) and I wish him success, I'm sure we'll stay in touch. But at the end of the day, you know, it's out of my control. Again, I'm going one day at a time and working with Bierky has been going very well so far, I look forward to continuing to work with him in the future, ”Murray said of this.

 

[Beech]

listen to the 2-3 time slot on 1200.Kevin Woodley gave a pretty good description of Murray and his issues. (from about minute 25 on wards)

The Drive - Hour 1

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

listen to the 2-3 time slot on 1200.Kevin Woodley gave a pretty good description of Murray and his issues. (from about minute 25 on wards)

The Drive - Hour 1

Woodley: If you think out there, you're dead, and Murray's changes aren't instinctual just yet

Yikes ... lol Dorion demotes Groulx when the Senators were on board for some significant changes going on with Matt Murray and he is still working through them. This was all out there before the trade .. now due to something the Sens make a change with a new goalie coach. I am glad this is out there now. Melnyk should be listening

 

[SENATOR]

Woodley: If you think out there, you're dead, and Murray's changes aren't instinctual just yet

Yikes ... lol Dorion demotes Groulx when the Senators were on board for some significant changes going on with Matt Murray and he is still working through them. This was all out there before the trade .. now due to something the Sens make a change with a new goalie coach. I am glad this is out there now. Melnyk should be listening

The changes, the changes.......but actually get him to learn fundamentals for new NHL, which Murray never had. Too low, too soon, not challenging shooters, exposing s lot of net. And why would you fix a guy?? We just need to get rid of him before teaching an old dog new tricks. With the new goalie coach, they just covering for Dorion and his lack of recognizing NHL talent. 6 million a year for a lemon. Holly fukc!!!!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The changes, the changes.......but actually get him to learn fundamentals for new NHL, which Murray never had. Too low, too soon, not challenging shooters, exposing s lot of net. And why would you fix a guy?? We just need to get rid of him before teaching an old dog new tricks. With the new goalie coach, they just covering for Dorion and his lack of recognizing NHL talent. 6 million a year for a lemon. Holly fukc!!!!

Dorion traded for him and signed him and all this was already out about Murray changing how he plays. Pretty penny and quite the risk

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

Good to hear that Murray himself is fully cognizant of the issues with his play and is taking active steps to fix it. Would be easy to just rest on your laurels.

 

[PlayOn]

listen to the 2-3 time slot on 1200.Kevin Woodley gave a pretty good description of Murray and his issues. (from about minute 25 on wards)

The Drive - Hour 1

This was extremely interesting.

I don’t fully understand the technical stuff he’s talking about, but long story short for those not listening, when Pittsburgh won the Cup they were one of the first teams to figure out that lateral offense is what wins and scores goals and they knew how to prevent it. Caps basically copied what the Pens did to win the cup the next year and then everyone else in the NHL caught on. Woodley is saying that Murray’s style no longer works due to the new style everyone is playing and that’s why he has been trying to revamp his game from a technical standpoint.

He believes Murray can do it as he has all the skill and intangibles that made him so good, but it’s a process until he gets used to it and the changes become his new normal.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

The changes, the changes.......but actually get him to learn fundamentals for new NHL, which Murray never had. Too low, too soon, not challenging shooters, exposing s lot of net. And why would you fix a guy?? We just need to get rid of him before teaching an old dog new tricks. With the new goalie coach, they just covering for Dorion and his lack of recognizing NHL talent. 6 million a year for a lemon. Holly fukc!!!!

Man you seem to know a lot about goaltending , coaching, skill development, defensive structure. You must be a hockey genius in Russia

 

[Xspyrit]

Man you seem to know a lot about goaltending , coaching, skill development, defensive structure. You must be a hockey genius in Russia

I am trying to avoid any goaltending discussion now, it's painful to read. Lundqvist just made an elite career of staying deep in his net. It's a choice. Personally, I am more agressive and come on top of the crease because I am not 6'5. I have wide shoulders but still don't take as much net as those giant NHL goalies so I "need" to be more agressive.

Yes, Murray really isn't in the peak of his career, has been dealing with a lot of injuries, is lacking confidence and probably never played for a team lacking structure before (well more towards the beginning of the season) but THE problem has been the same ALL SEASON : the Sens defending on the road. It doesn't matter who is net, Sens give up 4.67 GA/GP on the road vs 2.83 GA/GP at home... I mean, it's a gigantic difference, you don't need to look further than that... if someone still don't see it by now after 44 GP, they just never will. It's like people who still don't understand that wearing a mask and physical distancing is the only way to slow down and contain a virus outbreak until a vaccine.

Sens defensive road play has improved recently compared to earlier in the season but they still give up many goals. Still is night and day better than early in the season where Murray got the bulk of his road starts, which tanked his numbers for the season. Let's not forget that Gudbranson, Josh Brown and Coburn were often in the lineup and Zub didn't play before game 10. Reilly was atrocious in the first 10-12 games before settling down, etc.

The Sens have one outlier statistically and it's Gustavsson who ONLY played 3 home games and no road games

Road

Anton Forsberg 0.901 SV % (3 GS)
Joey Daccord 0.887 SV % (3 GS)
Marcus Hogberg 0.863 SV % (6 GS)
Matt Murray 0.840 SV % (9 GS)
Forsberg/Daccord/Hogberg 0.879 SV % (12 GS)

Home

Filip Gustavsson 0.946 SV % (3 GS)
Anton Forsberg 0.921 SV % (3 GS)
Joey Daccord 0.911 SV % (3 GS)
Matt Murray 0.909 SV % (12 GS)
Marcus Hogberg 0.880 SV % (2 GS)
Forsberg/Daccord/Hogberg 0.908 SV % (8 GS)

So similar stats at home. On the road, I think it can be attributed to getting more starts towards the beginning of the season. Also, playing @ Montreal helped goalie road stats this season and Daccord/Forsberg both have 1/3 of their starts against them.

All of this is obvious, not sure I have seen anybody acknowledge this analysis yet. This discrepancy between home and road goalie stats is not a coincidence lol... team is decent on home ice and struggled heavily on the road

 

[cudi]

Good to hear that Murray himself is fully cognizant of the issues with his play and is taking active steps to fix it. Would be easy to just rest on your laurels.

This is the 1 thing I hang my hopes on that he can bounce back at some point. Self awareness is something A LOT of people lack. Especially pro athletes.

If he knows and is aware of what he's struggling at, in theory it makes it easier to work at and potentially fix.

Nothing is a given though. He of course could never recover and become the guy the Sens expected.

 

[SensFactor]

Gotta fix his glove hand.

 

[SENATOR]

So according to exports. Dorion got a lemon in Mat Murray and gave him 25 million dollar contract in the process. What kind of home work Dorion does before getting the league's talent on his roster? Melnyk should be really concerned here.
Murray plays modern stand-up - hybrid style. But his stance is to wide, because it is easier for him to T-push or shuffle back into a standing position after every shot from being too low to the ground. It is a reflex now for him. That's how he got scored easily, when a player had a time and a space to place a shot, almost in the empty net above him. His biggest problem is a glove of course, but the most horrifying one is that, as I said, he is too low and too soon on his stance. Exposing a lot of net behind him above his shoulders and not challenging the players to compensate it. He is not challenging the shooters, because he has an another problem, when he is losing easily an angle and even a goal. Those are not good attributes for 25 million player. During glory days of Pittsburgh, Murray's lack of good fundamentals for modern day hockey were not exposed. When Pittsburgh employed lateral soviet hockey invented offence with a lot of stopping(stop and go) and east-west passing. Defense played the same style and it greatly limited any offensive time zone by opposition team or limited quality shots, time and space for opposing players.

 

[SENATOR]

Actually the only guys in Sens uniform who play a lateral offence are Stutzle and Dadonov. Somehow Tkachuk and Paul. I do not think DJ Smith even understands this concept LOL

 

[Xspyrit]

"Modern day hockey" today vs 3 years ago. The game has changed so much it's CRAZY!

lol Senator always had the funniest takes of all time.


Penguins were so GOAT defensively that for 2015-16 and 2016-17, they were :

- 18th in xGA/60, 10th in playoffs (23 teams)
- 17th in SCA/60, 13th in playoffs (23 teams)
- 19th in HDCA/60, 7th in playoffs (23 teams)

Watch the games, they were average at best defensively. They had elite centers, an elite PMD, great goaltending and were extremely well coached. Lot of chemistry and cohesion on that team -> better execution

 

[swiftwin]

listen to the 2-3 time slot on 1200.Kevin Woodley gave a pretty good description of Murray and his issues. (from about minute 25 on wards)

The Drive - Hour 1

Crazy insightful.

Just goes to show how knowledgeable these professionals are when it comes to this sport versus hot takes fans have on social media.

 

[Yak]

Crazy insightful.

Just goes to show how knowledgeable these professionals are when it comes to this sport versus hot takes fans have on social media.

Sure was, I think it should be mandatory listening for all fans of the Senators. We should hire Kevin Woodley!

I think we are going need some patience here as Woodley did not throw Murray under the bus but gave us great insight that he is transforming his game and this stuff does not happen over night. The best goalies in the league have had to make adjustments and had off years. If he get this fixed up in the off-season or early into next season he could be that cup winning goalie once again. It's also nice to know that is not that he is washed up and that their factors behind the scenes that fans are not privy too.