Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion XX - The Dog Days of August V3

[Throw More Waffles]

Marner is worth more than anyone else to you. He scored 94 pts in his contract year.

Goals. ELC performance don’t matter. Just points in the contract year. So Marner has to be the top RFA contract this year.

Right? Be consistent

Remember, I value goals more than points (marginally), and accept the center premium. All things said and done, Marner and Matthews have very similar values to me.

But, remember, I think Matthews is DRAMATICALLY overpaid and should also make somewhere around 9x5. Maybe a little more than Marner. Like 10x5. So I am being 100% consistent.

Marner's worth shouldn't be affected by the unprecedented dramatic overpayment of Matthews.

 

[Brown Dog]

Marner is worth more than anyone else to you. He scored 94 pts in his contract year.

Goals. ELC performance don’t matter. Just points in the contract year. So Marner has to be the top RFA contract this year.

Right? Be consistent

The Leafs could absolutely play hardball with Marner and lowball the crap out of him. It should be obvious to everyone by now that no offer sheet is riding in on a white stallion for him. So the Leafs are essentially negotiating against themselves.

Marner's only real leverage is that his absence in a holdout would be a blow to the team in a Cup-window season (not to mention a distraction) and that Dubas won't want to spoil the team's relationship with one of its core players.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I don't understand why it seems to be more or less accepted that the Leafs will/should have to pay a premium to keep its star players (and in this case it's local, homegrown star player).

We are the Leafs for crying out loud! That means something to me. Why doesn't that seem to mean more to Marner?

The talking heads are acting like $9.5 million over 3 years is a reasonable compromise to this impasse? And you know it will come front-loaded and lockout-proof, laden with juicy signing bonuses that other teams can't match. Chris Johnston says comparables aren't relevant in this situation--for reasons unknown.

Kucherov re-signs with Tampa on the verge of UFA for max term at $9.5million per year. Kucherov...
A) is a better, more accomplished player than Marner
B) is also a winger
C) signed almost entirely UFA years

But we should be happy paying RFA Marner the same coin? For only RFA years and minimal commitment or sacrifice from him? Why, because playing for the Leafs is such a drag?

If Marner truly feels that making "Auston Matthews money" is more important than signing a reasonable contract that will allow him to continue playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs, I can honestly say he's not a guy I want on the team.

I was looking at other forums and saw fans of small market teams complaining that stars want "the limelight" and it's hard to sign them in a small town without a premium.

Then I come to the leafs boards and it's all "players hate the limelight" and we have to overpay our players in order to keep them.

I think everybody just wants to be the victim. The truth is, some gm's just suck at their jobs and overpay. The end.

 

[axlrose87]

Ok i will say this. He is our best player. A all situations special teams guy that does it all for his team. He is worth 11 million for his trouble because he is the best player on the team. It cant be argued that he is not.

Marner is not even close to the leafs best player.
He is 4th. Behind, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly.
You also called him a superstar. He is not. He is a 26 goal 94 point player. He is darn good but he is not a superstar.... unless you believe there are over 20 superstars in the league.
Marner is very flashy and he plays for the most watched team in the league so he gets overhyped.
I love the player but his demands are very unreasonable.

 

[Brown Dog]

I was looking at other forums and saw fans of small market teams complaining that stars want "the limelight" and it's hard to sign them in a small town without a premium.

Then I come to the leafs boards and it's all "players hate the limelight" and we have to overpay our players in order to keep them.

I think everybody just wants to be the victim. The truth is, some gm's just suck at their jobs and overpay. The end.

Certainly seems like Marner is putting the screws to the team, looking to prove a point more than anything. At what point do you just move on from a guy like that? We're trying to win a Cup here and I really question if you can do it with a guy like that.

 

[Legion34]

Remember, I value goals more than points (marginally), and accept the center premium. All things said and done, Marner and Matthews have very similar values to me.

But, remember, I think Matthews is DRAMATICALLY overpaid and should also make somewhere around 9x5. Maybe a little more than Marner. Like 10x5. So I am being 100% consistent.

Marner's worth shouldn't be affected by the unprecedented dramatic overpayment of Matthews.

All that matters for Matthews is the career high of 73 pts. Not goals. Not position. Not total goals (although Laine is a 110 g scorer)

So Marner is a 94 pt player. That’s the highest. By your argument. You have to think Marner should be the highest RFA.

His has the highest total points in the contract year. That’s it.

Dubas has to pay Marner the most In your eyes.

Be consistent

 

[IPS]

Marner is not even close to the leafs best player.
He is 4th. Behind, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly.
You also called him a superstar. He is not. He is a 26 goal 94 point player. He is darn good but he is not a superstar.... unless you believe there are over 20 superstars in the league.
Marner is very flashy and he plays for the most watched team in the league so he gets overhyped.
I love the player but his demands are very unreasonable.

90+ points is not the same now as 90+ points was even 2 years ago.

The NHL saw 14 guys get over 90 points this year, with some very surprising names in there.

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner is not even close to the leafs best player.
He is 4th. Behind, Matthews, Tavares and Reilly.
You also called him a superstar. He is not. He is a 26 goal 94 point player. He is darn good but he is not a superstar.... unless you believe there are over 20 superstars in the league.
Marner is very flashy and he plays for the most watched team in the league so he gets overhyped.
I love the player but his demands are very unreasonable.

Tell me how many U22 year olds have reached 94 points in the last decade? How many of them are not superstars?

 

[axlrose87]

Tell me how many U22 year olds have reached 94 points in the last decade? How many of them are not superstars?

I have a hard time calling a forward who has a career high of 26 goals a superstar. That would be acceptable as a defencemen. Not as a forward.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Certainly seems like Marner is putting the screws to the team, looking to prove a point more than anything. At what point do you just move on from a guy like that? We're trying to win a Cup here and I really question if you can do it with a guy like that.

I’m actually ok with it for now. Almost all of the other rfa’s are doing the same thing.

I’m guessing (hoping) that Marner and his agent are playing hardball until camp starts.

If it starts cutting into camp, I’ll start getting annoyed.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

All that matters for Matthews is the career high of 73 pts. Not goals. Not position. Not total goals (although Laine is a 110 g scorer)

So Marner is a 94 pt player. That’s the highest. By your argument. You have to think Marner should be the highest RFA.

His has the highest total points in the contract year. That’s it.

Dubas has to pay Marner the most In your eyes.

Be consistent

Well... I am being consistent to my actual real arguments. Just not to your twisted version of them.

I think there’s a case to be made for Marner making more than matthews, and vice versa. But neither should be ANYWHERE near 11.6x5.

 

[IPS]

I have a hard time calling a forward who has a career high of 26 goals a superstar. That would be acceptable as a defencemen. Not as a forward.

And he finished 11th in points!!!

Finishing 11th in points should in no way qualify you to be making a top-3 salary in the NHL!!!

The more and more one looks into how this inflation in league scoring is throwing the pay-scale out of whack the more and more ABSURD Marner's demand look. The league's 11th place scorer 2 years ago had 74 points, a 20 freaking point difference.

 

[MyBudJT]

I have a hard time calling a forward who has a career high of 26 goals a superstar. That would be acceptable as a defencemen. Not as a forward.

Okay, but why don't you think a U22 year old 26 goal scorer won't be capable of scoring 30?

 

[axlrose87]

Okay, but why don't you think a U22 year old 26 goal scorer won't be capable of scoring 30?

Yes. I do. I also think that he has the potential to become a superstar.
He just isn't there yet.

 

[Legion34]

Well... I am being consistent to my actual real arguments. Just not to your twisted version of them.

I think there’s a case to be made for Marner making more than matthews, and vice versa. But neither should be ANYWHERE near 11.6x5.

Except when you decide that Laine should be paid based on ELC total goals right?

You consistently say the same thing for the leafs. Matthews as a 73 pt player in his contract year and ignore everything else.

Marner is the highest scorer this year and should be paid the most according to your arguments.

Be psychotically consistent

 

[Eb]

I’m actually ok with it for now. Almost all of the other rfa’s are doing the same thing.

I’m guessing (hoping) that Marner and his agent are playing hardball until camp starts.

If it starts cutting into camp, I’ll start getting annoyed.

You never responded to my question a week or so ago.

What would you say an overpayment for Marner is?

 

[Legion34]

You never responded to my question a week or so ago.

What would you say an overpayment for Marner is?

Whatever Dubas signs him for will be an overpay.
@Throw More Waffles the same poster who says Matthews contract should be based on total points in a contract year.

But in Laine threads talks about Laine scoring 110 goals over his ELC.

Some people just want to stir things up

 

[Dekes For Days]

Okay, but why don't you think a U22 year old 26 goal scorer won't be capable of scoring 30?

Because he has a bad shot, and he barely got 26 on the back of 4 empty net goals and a high OISH%.

 

[Mr Hockey]

He is beauty ...

 

[hfman]

you misunderstand me.


I'm not a potato.

I'M A MAN

and i'm about to show you how a POTATO can get MOREner signed sooner than Dubas can!

 

[Tmart335]

And he finished 11th in points!!!

Finishing 11th in points should in no way qualify you to be making a top-3 salary in the NHL!!!

The more and more one looks into how this inflation in league scoring is throwing the pay-scale out of whack the more and more ABSURD Marner's demand look. The league's 11th place scorer 2 years ago had 74 points, a 20 freaking point difference.

Marner is also the youngest guy in that scoring list. The only other guy his age is McDavid.

He is 2 years younger than the next closest guy his age. Most guys in that list are 24+

I want marner to sign a reasonable deal as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend 94 points at 22 is an easy feat.

The kid could very easily be top 5 in points next year and break 100

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Marner's only real leverage is that his absence in a holdout would be a blow to the team in a Cup-window season

Only??

 

[SwaggySpungo]

Marner is also the youngest guy in that scoring list. The only other guy his age is McDavid.

He is 2 years younger than the next closest guy his age. Most guys in that list are 24+

I want marner to sign a reasonable deal as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend 94 points at 22 is an easy feat.

The kid could very easily be top 5 in points next year and break 100

Or he could very easily fall outside the top 20 in points. The gap from 11th to 5th in league scoring is quite a jump. No reason to assume he’ll do that.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

And he finished 11th in points!!!

Finishing 11th in points should in no way qualify you to be making a top-3 salary in the NHL!!!

The more and more one looks into how this inflation in league scoring is throwing the pay-scale out of whack the more and more ABSURD Marner's demand look. The league's 11th place scorer 2 years ago had 74 points, a 20 freaking point difference.

Pretty amazing he managed to finish 11th with the PP time distribution of the team.

 

[Tmart335]

Or he could very easily fall outside the top 20 in points. The gap from 11th to 5th in league scoring is quite a jump. No reason to assume he’ll do that.

11th to 5th is 6 points...not sure I would consider that quite the jump

61, 69, 94. Marner is trending up. 84 points was the number 20 scorer this year. The guy has 100 point potential, before he drops back to 83