Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion XX - The Dog Days of August V3

[Walshy7]

It's the Swiss league.

Nylander trained with the Austrian league, the post you quoted was a post talking about Nylander doing it and you said "where can he train at a pro level here" I responded saying the London Knights are likely just as professional as the Austrian league

 

[Mowman]

It's the swiss league. It's not like he's going to some top league or anything. He can literally train at universities here in Canada and a lot of the players would be in the same tier as those guys. Hell, I'm sure he'd even be able to go back and train with the London Knights if he wanted to.

If anything he is going over there to get out of the spotlight. If he is on the ice here with the Knights or as some other ice pad, media will follow him.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I completely disagree. Matthews is a much more important player.

But that is just a difference of opinion, and that's okay.

I definitely evaluate others views with equal weight afforded towards mine. It keeps me relevant ha. The pros and cons of my idea would be a interesting didcussion. I don’t generally grab on to my own thinking and stubbornly dig it with. I change my thinking with good discussions all the time. Not always

Really there could be absolutely no harm in changing my mind and keeping Matthews. Not a terrible thing

Ideally we keep both as it now stands and that above all is the best anyways. Marner should be respected for the quality of player he is and what he brings. Can’t hate on him for thinking he is as equally important and deserves the fair money

 

[hockeeyyy]

As a REAL fan of this team, I'm (rightfully) very upset at the unprecedented dramatic overpayments our gm is giving out. I genuinely believe, as a result of such overpayments, that the leafs won't have the cap space to be elite. So, yes. I'm VERY upset about it. Because I care far more about the team actually DOING WELL, than for making lame excuses/rationalizations for the atrocities committed by management.

It seems you agree that Rantanen deserves more money than Marner. So I'll give you that. Do you know how many people I've seen make the "back to back 60 point seasons" argument in regards to Nylander vs Pastrnak, only for them to deny that it also applies to Rantanen vs Marner? Will you agree that Dubas messed up big time if Marner makes significantly more money than Rantanen (including term in the equation)?

Pray tell... what do you think about the Matthews contract? Remember... you rationalized Nylander vs Pastrnak based SOLELY on ppg. When we compare Matthews elc ppg to other players who signed 14-15%, it's a flat out complete ****ing total JOKE.

My goodness, your thought process is a joke. You are no more a real fan than the other posters in this sub-forum. You're not just being dramatic, you're being childish.

Rantanen does not deserve more money than Marner -- they both are on the same tier. What's compounding the Rantanen contract is that MacKinnon signed an absurdly team-friendly deal after two years of middling performance; the team took a sizable gamble at the time of that contract. Perspective is everything, and at the time that deal was signed, it was generally dismissed as a reasonable deal for the player.

Hindsight is clearly 20/20 in the case of MacKinnon.

Matthews' deal has been roundly lauded by the NHLPA. But it was never a bad deal to begin with. It was a solid deal, brought on by a performance from a player who has produced at an incredible level of play for the first three years of his career. He's outperformed everyone at even-strength scoring, and beyond that, his historical comparables are beyond reproach. We're talking Lindros, Lemieux, etc.

Here's a snapshot of goals per game since the 1989-90 season. Even better, he's 3rd overall on that list for even-strength goals since that same time frame. McDavid doesn't even sniff Auston's rarifed air of goal scoring ability.

Dom from The Athletic broke down each team's cap-efficiency, and the Leafs finished third overall.

The Auston Matthews deal looks pricey compared to McDavid’s, but that’s an unfair bar to be compared to as both players will be vastly underpaid for their services given their current projected value and trajectory. Matthews is one of the most efficient players in hockey and projects to be the league’s second most valuable player during the life of his contract. The William Nylander deal is far from a problem – assuming he can bounce back with a proper training camp. Signing John Tavares, an obviously elite player, to a very fair deal is not the reason the team has cap issues. The grass is always greener on the other side. Spending to the cap is what contenders have to do.

Which leads me to your next ridiculous post...

I don't for even the slightest of seconds believe that another team would have offered Matthews 11.6x5, AS WELL AS give up 4 first round picks.

Every other star player seems to sign at/around market value, and the "offer sheet threat" was just as applicable to them.

Sure, like Dubas, some gm's give out horrible contracts sometimes. But those contracts are usually universally panned, and those gm's typically don't last long.

That Matthews contract is widely considered exceptionally valuable is absolutely worth the four 1st round picks a team would have given up. It was rumoured that some teams were looking to give him the max or something close to the max in order to procure his services. That he signed for 5 years instead of 8 years is simply a reality of the salary cap -- for the Leafs to keep their window open for five years, they had to reduce his cap-hit significantly to make it work. It's a miracle he signed at all.

 

[FlareKnight]

If anything he is going over there to get out of the spotlight. If he is on the ice here with the Knights or as some other ice pad, media will follow him.

In the end that’s all it is. It is a place to hide out while pretending he is keeping himself in game shape. Not a shocking or unusual plan for someone in his position.

Doesn’t much change anything if he trains somewhere in Canada or goes overseas. If he doesn’t get signed before camp or the start of the season he’s going to be a step behind.

But that’s probably not a concern. Won’t get paid any less if he has a bad season. The only focus for Marner at this stage is getting that contract and avoiding attention while holding out for it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

My goodness, your thought process is a joke. You are no more a real fan than the other posters in this sub-forum. You're not just being dramatic, you're being childish.

Rantanen does not deserve more money than Marner -- they both are on the same tier. What's compounding the Rantanen contract is that MacKinnon signed an absurdly team-friendly deal after two years of middling performance; the team took a sizable gamble at the time of that contract. Perspective is everything, and at the time that deal was signed, it was generally dismissed as a reasonable deal for the player.

Hindsight is clearly 20/20 in the case of MacKinnon.

Matthews' deal has been roundly lauded by the NHLPA. But it was never a bad deal to begin with. It was a solid deal, brought on by a performance from a player who has produced at an incredible level of play for the first three years of his career. He's outperformed everyone at even-strength scoring, and beyond that, his historical comparables are beyond reproach. We're talking Lindros, Lemieux, etc.

Here's a snapshot of goals per game since the 1989-90 season. Even better, he's 3rd overall on that list for even-strength goals since that same time frame. McDavid doesn't even sniff Auston's rarifed air of goal scoring ability.

Dom from The Athletic broke down each team's cap-efficiency, and the Leafs finished third overall.



Which leads me to your next ridiculous post...



That Matthews contract is widely considered exceptionally valuable is absolutely worth the four 1st round picks a team would have given up. It was rumoured that some teams were looking to give him the max or something close to the max in order to procure his services. That he signed for 5 years instead of 8 years is simply a reality of the salary cap -- for the Leafs to keep their window open for five years, they had to reduce his cap-hit significantly to make it work. It's a miracle he signed at all.

It’s just such a lame rationalization.

McDavid could have made more money testing the rfa market. So could quite literally every star rfa player.

I’ve never heard other boards here make such a silly argument. “We have to pay our star players far higher than comparables because he might beoffer sheeted”. SO WHAT? That precise same logic applied to every other comparable as well. So it’s just such a stupid excuse.

And no matter how you try and spin it, the leafs SHOULD NOT be paying their career high 73 point player as much as other teams pay their 100 point players.

I never see this in reverse. I never see other teams paying 70 point players like 100 point players under the idea that he “might get better”. And even if you can find a few horrible universally panned contracts to cite, THOSE will be the company Matthews contract is under.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I definitely evaluate others views with equal weight afforded towards mine. It keeps me relevant ha. The pros and cons of my idea would be a interesting didcussion. I don’t generally grab on to my own thinking and stubbornly dig it with. I change my thinking with good discussions all the time. Not always

Really there could be absolutely no harm in changing my mind and keeping Matthews. Not a terrible thing

Ideally we keep both as it now stands and that above all is the best anyways. Marner should be respected for the quality of player he is and what he brings. Can’t hate on him for thinking he is as equally important and deserves the fair money

"Fair money" is the contentious point here.

If I have a colleague in a different department who I consider to be equally or less important than me making 100k, is it unfair if management offers me 80k even though that's 15% more than other companies are paying for a similar role/experience?

 

[Notsince67]

No disrespect to the league but be real here. The league is full of players who were barely 4th liners at the peak of their NHL careers and career AHL guys who switched leagues. A lot of players who play their years at canadian universities go and play in those kinds of leagues. They're great leagues in their own right but what is training with a swiss league team gonna do for him when he can just train over here?

It's about getting your skating legs back. The conditioning is what counts. He cant go anywhere here without being stalked. Really confused why people make a big deal out of this.

 

[Suntouchable13]

"Fair money" is the contentious point here.

If I have a colleague in a different department who I consider to be equally or less important than me making 100k, is it unfair if management offers me 80k even though that's 15% more than other companies are paying for a similar role/experience?

A team might value a guy who averaged 37 goals a season during his ELC more than Marner (who is still a top line player). I kinda agree with them. Matthews is more important. Again, that's just an opinion. If he continues to insist on a Matthews type deal than he can not be a Leaf. To me, it's that simple.

 

[Martin Skoula]

A team might value a guy who averaged 37 goals a season during his ELC more than Marner (who is still a top line player). I kinda agree with them. Matthews is more important. Again, that's just an opinion. If he continues to insist on a Matthews type deal than he can not be a Leaf. To me, it's that simple.

Yeah, before they even agree on who's more important, they'd have to agree on how we measure "important".

The concept of "fairness" is never going to be achieved in this situation, too many abstract definitions to agree on before you can even start the legwork.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Yeah, before they even agree on who's more important, they'd have to agree on how we measure "important".

The concept of "fairness" is never going to be achieved in this situation, too many abstract definitions to agree on before you can even start the legwork.

Yea, who's more important depends on what Dubas values.

 

[Notsince67]

Yeah, before they even agree on who's more important, they'd have to agree on how we measure "important".

The concept of "fairness" is never going to be achieved in this situation, too many abstract definitions to agree on before you can even start the legwork.

The issue with people on this forum is the unwillingness to put a benchmark an what Marner needs to produce next year at different price points in an honest way. One poster said that Marner needed something like 130 points which I would bet a number of people here would put their hand up and agree. The real problem is suggesting that while supporting that Matthews is ok with 90-100 points. The battle lines have been drawn emotionally.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Don't care how many points they score. Just lead the team in the playoffs somewhere for that kind of money.

 

[crump]

Max
7.5 x 3
9.5 x 6
10.5 x8
More than fair.
Let him sit otherwise.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Max
7.5 x 3
9.5 x 6
10.5 x8
More than fair.
Let him sit otherwise.

Would love to see this.

 

[Kiwi]

Max
7.5 x 3
9.5 x 6
10.5 x8
More than fair.
Let him sit otherwise.

No way bro, if he signs for 3 years and the AAV is under 9M I'll be shocked, shocked I tell you

 

[Nineteen67]

Max
7.5 x 3
9.5 x 6
10.5 x8
More than fair.
Let him sit otherwise.

What about 12.5 % of the cap for the next 10 yrs?

 

[81Leafs50]

That is also a gross overpayment on only a 3 year term. It would be worse than the Matthews contract in my opinion.

Matthews is the Leafs #1 C and franchise player.

ohhh and....most 5v5 goals in the NHL since he was drafted all while playing less games and with shit linemates.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

"Fair money" is the contentious point here.

If I have a colleague in a different department who I consider to be equally or less important than me making 100k, is it unfair if management offers me 80k even though that's 15% more than other companies are paying for a similar role/experience?

Marner deserves to be paid consistent with his value to the team. Not how much cap space is left. Tavares had a career year in goals with him and he had a career year in goals and assists and points with Tavares.

Mutually beneficial to the team to a equal degree. Can you afford him or not is the question.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

Why would you pay fair value to an RFA with no arbitration rights? UFAs are the ones you have to play fair value to, the RFA has no leverage. I guess he can talk to other teams, he can't sign with them though.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Yeah, before they even agree on who's more important, they'd have to agree on how we measure "important".

The concept of "fairness" is never going to be achieved in this situation, too many abstract definitions to agree on before you can even start the legwork.

I’ll make it simple. Marner is worth his value. Leading scorer on the team of superstars and all situations players. Best player on the team last year and half of the previous season. Thats a fair sample size.

He the best player! So 12 million? Can’t afford that trade him or pay him. He deserves Matthews money if Matthews hasn’t been the best player correct. Pay it or trade.

I would darn well trade or waive Cici before I wouldn’t give Marner a extra million over $10,000,000 proposed worth in a heart beat. Management must sign him for the best chance to succeed in becoming champs.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I’ll make it simple. Marner is worth his value. Leading scorer on the team of superstars and all situations players. Best player on the team last year and half of the previous season. Thats a fair sample size.

He the best player! So 12 million? Can’t afford that trade him or pay him. He deserves Matthews money if Matthews hasn’t been the best player correct. Pay it or trade.

I would darn well trade or waive Cici before I wouldn’t give Marner a extra million over $10,000,000 proposed worth in a heart beat. Management must sign him for the best chance to succeed in becoming champs.

I'm happy to let someone else pay him 12+ and give us 4 1sts for the privilege. Marner is not going to be the 2nd highest paid player in the league and by far the highest paid winger in the league when he isn't close to top-5 in either category.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'm happy to let someone else pay him 12+ and give us 4 1sts for the privilege. Marner is not going to be the 2nd highest paid player in the league and by far the highest paid winger in the league when he isn't close to top-5 in either category.

4 first don’t win championships in a limited window! Now what?

 

[Martin Skoula]

4 first don’t win championships in a limited window! Now what?

Spend 10 mil elsewhere and trade the picks for the top rental 4 years in a row and/or offersheet Tkachuk. Now what?

 

[ZippityDooDa]

It’s just such a lame rationalization.

McDavid could have made more money testing the rfa market. So could quite literally every star rfa player.

I’ve never heard other boards here make such a silly argument. “We have to pay our star players far higher than comparables because he might beoffer sheeted”. SO WHAT? That precise same logic applied to every other comparable as well. So it’s just such a stupid excuse.

And no matter how you try and spin it, the leafs SHOULD NOT be paying their career high 73 point player as much as other teams pay their 100 point players.

I never see this in reverse. I never see other teams paying 70 point players like 100 point players under the idea that he “might get better”. And even if you can find a few horrible universally panned contracts to cite, THOSE will be the company Matthews contract is under.

Rationality often goes out the window on this board.