Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[ORRFForever]

We don't really need excuses for Matthews because he's performing quite well as a first overall franchise center. The reality is it's just hard to become a championship franchise center. That kind of evolution takes time.

It's funny. Over the course of their ELC's, Matthews has basically been played with Nylander, Hyman, Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown and very briefly Patrick Marleau. For the bulk of his career he's been thrown out there and been asked to make it work with other kids breaking into the league. And he's made it work.

In contrast, Marner broke into the league with JVR and Bozak, essentially taking the Phil Kessel role on that former run and gun big line. And not counting brief demotions over the first two years, Marner then ended up on John Tavares' line in Year 3. Tavares is an $11 million franchise centerman.

What I'm saying here is Marner has always been set up well to succeed offensively with plenty of veteran support. The idea that he's stirring the drink is fine. But I'd say he's always been surrounded by more talent than Matthews. It would be an interesting experiment if we suddenly acquired Patrick Kane for Matthews to play with.

Wait... Aren't those excuses? In fact, a LOT of them - and the season hasn't started.

HART NOMINATION OR BUST FOR MATTHEWS !!!

He wanted to be paid like a Top 3 player, now play like one!

 

[ORRFForever]

So you think that they determined what to pay him based on his performance in the months after the contract was signed?



Actually what I have been saying is that Leafs' management thinks Matthews is significantly more valuable than Marner. That should be obvious. I do think that Matthews is a lot better, but I think that is a useless argument at this time. So I make it pretty simple - even if it turns out that you are correct that Matthews sucks and Marner is the greated thing since Wayne Gretzky, Leafs management at this time appears to completely disagree with you.

I think the Leafs should have had the insight to see they were overpaying him - like many of the posters here did.

You guys are the ones who compared your guy to Mario, Wayne and O.V., not Marner fans

HART NOMINATION OR BUST FOR MATTHEWS !!!

No more excuses in 2019/2020, biotk.

 

[Stephen]

So you think that they determined what to pay him based on his performance in the months after the contract was signed?



Actually what I have been saying is that Leafs' management thinks Matthews is significantly more valuable than Marner. That should be obvious. I do think that Matthews is a lot better, but I think that is a useless argument at this time. So I make it pretty simple - even if it turns out that you are correct that Matthews sucks and Marner is the greated thing since Wayne Gretzky, Leafs management at this time appears to completely disagree with you.

Leafs management has also deployed Marner with veteran offensive support in a way that Matthews has never had. While not a slight to Marner, means they think Matthews can get it done with lesser teammates.

 

[Stephen]

Wait... Aren't those excuses? In fact, a LOT of them - and the season hasn't started.

HART NOMINATION OR BUST FOR MATTHEWS !!!

He wanted to be paid like a Top 3 player, now play like one!

Excuses for what? You have to be looking at this rebuild with some pretty funky glasses to be this upset with Matthews.

 

[ORRFForever]

Excuses for what? You have to be looking at this rebuild with some pretty funky glasses to be this upset with Matthews.

Excuses are all we ever hear from Matthews apologists. He is GREAT / GENERATIONAL / ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE (!!!) but he hasn't been because...

1) He's still injured;
2) His wingers suck;
3) Babcock isn't using him properly;
4) Babcock is picking on him;
5) He doesn't want to get injured and risk his big payday.

Well, no more. It is time for Matthews to <bleep> or get off the pot.

 

[Stephen]

Excuses are all we ever hear from Matthews apologists. He is GREAT / GENERATIONAL / ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE (!!!) but he hasn't been because...

1) He's still injured;
2) His wingers suck;
3) Babcock isn't using him properly;
4) Babcock is picking on him;
5) He doesn't want to get injured and risk his big payday.

Well, no more. It is time for Matthews to <bleep> or get off the pot.

What you're failing to see is Matthews is thriving. The complaints are pointing out the factors that are holding him back from a 100+ point level when some of those items on your laundry list are resolved.

In terms of the Matthews vs Marner, you're talking about a 1.14 PPG vs 1.07 PPG. Over 82 games, that's a 5 point difference. One guy plays with an $11 million superstar center, the other played with 2 wingers with a combined salary of $1.61 million last year.

 

[ORRFForever]

What you're failing to see is Matthews is thriving.

^^ I stopped reading after this sentence. ^^

Matthews apologists wanted him paid like a TOP 3 players. He is. Now he needs to put up or shut up.

HART NOMINATION OR BUST FOR MATTHEWS !!!!

NO MORE EXCUSES !!!

 

[Lightsol]

I swear to f***ing God, if MARNER is the one of the big 3 the Leafs get rid of... To keep a franchise center with one foot out the door already and a guy who hasn't bothered to show up at the NHL level at 100% yet, yet shows up for Sweden ever year...

I'm just done.

 

[Notsince67]

We don't really need excuses for Matthews because he's performing quite well as a first overall franchise center. The reality is it's just hard to become a championship franchise center. That kind of evolution takes time.

It's funny. Over the course of their ELC's, Matthews has basically been played with Nylander, Hyman, Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown and very briefly Patrick Marleau. For the bulk of his career he's been thrown out there and been asked to make it work with other kids breaking into the league. And he's made it work.

In contrast, Marner broke into the league with JVR and Bozak, essentially taking the Phil Kessel role on that former run and gun big line. And not counting brief demotions over the first two years, Marner then ended up on John Tavares' line in Year 3. Tavares is an $11 million franchise centerman.

What I'm saying here is Marner has always been set up well to succeed offensively with plenty of veteran support. The idea that he's stirring the drink is fine. But I'd say he's always been surrounded by more talent than Matthews. It would be an interesting experiment if we suddenly acquired Patrick Kane for Matthews to play with.

So looking at QoT percentiles of forwards who have played 500 minutes or more at 5x5...
Year 1
QoT percentiles
Marner 61.4
Matthews 61.6
Pretty well a wash

Year 2
Matthews 87.9
Marner 56.8
Matthews with far more support by a 31 percentile difference

Year 3
Matthews 70.1
Marner 93.7
Marner with far more support by a 23.6 percentile difference

QoT says your dog wont hunt.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Enough with the Matthews' talk.

 

[HolyCrap]

I swear to ****ing God, if MARNER is the one of the big 3 the Leafs get rid of... To keep a franchise center with one foot out the door already and a guy who hasn't bothered to show up at the NHL level at 100% yet, yet shows up for Sweden ever year...

I'm just done.

So trade Mathews or Nylander to sign McMarner? I’d be fine trading Willy but not to over pay McMarner.

 

[Marshy]

I asked my Sens fan girlfriend point blank...

Me: "You've watched quite a few Leafs games the past 3 years right?"

Her: "Ya."

Me: "If you could only keep one, Matthews or Marner who would you keep."

Her: "Hmmm.. Marner was better last year...it's close but Matthews.

 

[HolyCrap]

I asked my Sens fan girlfriend point blank...

Me: "You've watched quite a few Leafs games the past 3 years right?"

Her: "Ya."

Me: "If you could only keep one, Matthews or Marner who would you keep."

Her: "Hmmm.. Marner was better last year...it's close but Matthews.

She’s a keeper bud.

 

[Stephen]

Year 3
Matthews 70.1
Marner 93.7
Marner with far more support by a 23.6 percentile difference

QoT says your dog wont hunt.

So Marner had far more support in his big breakout year based on the pseudo shot counting science you yourself supplied, therefore Matthews sucks.

Did I get that right?

Did you really need an Excel spreadsheet to tell you Marner played with Tavares?

 

[stickty111]

Players in terms of importance
Matthews
Andersen
Rielly
Tavares

Marner isn't even close to being the most important to the team.

 

[Marshy]

Players in terms of importance
Matthews
Andersen
Rielly
Tavares

Marner isn't even close to being the most important to the team.

2 of those guys are past their prime years. Age matters.

 

[Trapper]

Players in terms of importance
Matthews
Andersen
Rielly
Tavares

Marner isn't even close to being the most important to the team.

Down the middle and one D.
So we also need to see how Barrie does because if he’s a solid upgrade, you need to prioritize D over wingers.

 

[Pookie]

But when you talk of Marner and his comparables, you keep claiming it's ALL about ppg.

Once again, the second I show leaf contracts that have HUGE contracts far above their ppg would suggest, there's always "more to the story". Isn't it possible there's also "more to the story" with the Marner comparables he has a higher ppg than? Or does this tactic (lol) only get applied to LEAF players?

10.5 to 11.5

Deal with it

 

[Notsince67]

So Marner had far more support in his big breakout year based on the pseudo shot counting science you yourself supplied, therefore Matthews sucks.

Did I get that right?

Did you really need an Excel spreadsheet to tell you Marner played with Tavares?

Here is the thing. All these stats have a measure of inaccuracy. However large percentile swings have far more persuasion to prove that there is something amiss about your personal decree that happens to be backed by absolutely nada.
Take the loss and move on. Marner has not had more support than Matthews and that is pretty clear.

 

[al secord]

Excuses are all we ever hear from Matthews apologists. He is GREAT / GENERATIONAL / ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE (!!!) but he hasn't been because...

1) He's still injured;
2) His wingers suck;
3) Babcock isn't using him properly;
4) Babcock is picking on him;
5) He doesn't want to get injured and risk his big payday.

Well, no more. It is time for Matthews to <bleep> or get off the pot.

This is a whole new type of special.

 

[Notsince67]

Players in terms of importance
Matthews
Andersen
Rielly
Tavares

Marner isn't even close to being the most important to the team.

Not sure why we even iced a team for the 21% of the time Matthews didn't play the last 2 years. They weren't important games.

 

[al secord]

I asked my Sens fan girlfriend point blank...

Me: "You've watched quite a few Leafs games the past 3 years right?"

Her: "Ya."

Me: "If you could only keep one, Matthews or Marner who would you keep."

Her: "Hmmm.. Marner was better last year...it's close but Matthews.

A cheeseburger picnic wedding is the cards bud.

 

[Kiwi]

I swear to ****ing God, if MARNER is the one of the big 3 the Leafs get rid of... To keep a franchise center with one foot out the door already and a guy who hasn't bothered to show up at the NHL level at 100% yet, yet shows up for Sweden ever year...

I'm just done.

If Marner wants to stay here he will stay, if he wants every dollar possible he may need to go somewhere else to get it

That's his decision to make and I'm not going to attack guys who have been willing to sign with the team when he hasn't

He's just another player looking for a pay day, like all the rest

 

[Notsince67]

So Marner had far more support in his big breakout year based on the pseudo shot counting science you yourself supplied, therefore Matthews sucks.

Did I get that right?

Did you really need an Excel spreadsheet to tell you Marner played with Tavares?

I needed a spreadsheet to properly calculate year 1 and year 2 that you were referring to. Had I left year 3 out, you would have accused me of being dishonest...even though you were not even referring to year 3.
Do you have anything else? I guess we can put this issue to bed and I am happy to have educated you. Please refrain from making the claim that Marner had more support for the first 2 years because it isn't true. Thank you for your cooperation

 

[A1LeafNation]

If this goes past Oct 1. Marners deal will be less and less to fit the prorated cap hit under the upper limit.

Leafs got nothing but time.