Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[BoredBrandonPridham]

You missed spelled Marner.

Marner
Tavares
Rielly
Mathews
Anderson.

Mathews just edged out Rielly in points last year and was 21 points behind Marner who lead the team in scoring.

Until Mathews plays like our best player he is not. Funny how that works that way.

It's no coincidence that the 3 most important people are 3 elite players that play most of their ice time together. Matthews was an elite player that had no one else in that "most important player" list playing on his wing, and had half the amount of time with Rielly as his D man than Marner/Tavares did.

They're all great players, but Matthews is carrying quite a bit with lesser teammates and scoring the most, allowing 3 of our most important skaters to play together. I give the edge to Matthews but like I said they're all great.

Here's a nifty tool to check out ice time across linemates:
Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

I hope I read that right.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Marner is two things:

1. Undeniably talented.
2. Undeniably greedy.

So much to dislike about the current state of affairs.

Greedy? They are negotiating a contract and he is trying to get the best deal possible. That is not greedy IMO.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Greedy? They are negotiating a contract and he is trying to get the best deal possible. That is not greedy IMO.

Exactly. It's too expensive to live in Toronto for $9m/year. That extra $2 million will keep him out of living under a bridge.

 

[Notsince67]

He wasn’t coming off 3 years in a cap era. The cap came in during his 5th nhl season. Not really a comparable.

The rest on your list were massive goal scorers. Goals get more

What does does any of this have to do with the fact that wingers got huge contracts in the cap era? Goalposts keep shifting here

 

[Notsince67]

What I find funny is how Matthews was injured for as long as he was last season and still made Marner his ***** in regular and post season goal scoring

Without Tavares

Matthews, Tavares and Rielly are our best and most important players, you know our 2 1C and 1D



People had enough of this crap with Nylander and once Ferris started his usual negotiating tactics people were going to start reacting this way

I'm over it at this point, I couldn't care less if Marner's with the team or not

I support the team, he's just another player and I'm past pretending otherwise

No one believed you ever liked Marner dude. It was funny seeing you pretend though.

 

[Notsince67]

It's no coincidence that the 3 most important people are 3 elite players that play most of their ice time together. Matthews was an elite player that had no one else in that "most important player" list playing on his wing, and had half the amount of time with Rielly as his D man than Marner/Tavares did.

They're all great players, but Matthews is carrying quite a bit with lesser teammates and scoring the most, allowing 3 of our most important skaters to play together. I give the edge to Matthews but like I said they're all great.

Here's a nifty tool to check out ice time across linemates:
Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

I hope I read that right.

In year 2 Matthews had far better support.

 

[Joey Hoser]

The backlash is entirely dependent on Marners camps actions.

For all his faults as a player with his own contracts.... nylanders people kept their mouths shut and didn’t pay off dredger


He is the only player who’s camp is acting like this. He deserves the backlash. I hope it’s a learning experience

He doesn't deserve, and isn't getting any real backlash.

It's just some childish idiots in this thread and on twitter getting irrationally upset and calling him names, greedy, etc.

Pretty sure it's no skin off his back.

 

[hullsy47]

Greedy? They are negotiating a contract and he is trying to get the best deal possible. That is not greedy IMO.

well maybe but if the leafs hsve to trade nylander so u can swing a dick same size as Mathews well that's kinda like being greedy

 

[Notsince67]

well maybe but if the leafs hsve to trade nylander so u can swing a dick same size as Mathews well that's kinda like being greedy

Nylander sure wasn't worried about signing Gardiner when everyone was still a possibility.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No player is responsible for any other players contracts or if they have to be traded to make room.

 

[Legion34]

What does does any of this have to do with the fact that wingers got huge contracts in the cap era? Goalposts keep shifting here

GOAL scorers get more.

Ovechkin got more too.

Centres got more

Goal scoring C get the most. That’s just how it goes. Including what dubas himself said.

I don’t see what the point is? The leafs don’t have the money in the budget to sign Marner for Matthews money. They decided he wasn’t worth that based on comparable s.

To this point NO other team has decided to offer sheet him. So he isn’t worth that to anyone else

If no one will pay him. Then what?

 

[Sypher04]

You missed spelled Marner.

Marner
Tavares
Rielly
Mathews
Anderson.

Mathews just edged out Rielly in points last year and was 21 points behind Marner who lead the team in scoring.

Until Mathews plays like our best player he is not. Funny how that works that way.

I don't agree with the post you quoted leaving Marner out at all, but I also don't agree with how you've chosen to skew things to make Marner look better either.

Matthews missed 14 games. This is not a point that should be overlooked or used against him.
When Matthews was in the lineup he was as good as anyone on this team.

If you wanna look purely at points.
Auston was on pace for 45 goals and 88 points
Mitch had 25 goals and 91 points (at ES and PP)

*I left out PK simply for the sake of best comparison. As Matthews didn't play PK and otherwise their icetime/game was near identical on the season

 

[Legion34]

He doesn't deserve, and isn't getting any real backlash.

It's just some childish idiots in this thread and on twitter getting irrationally upset and calling him names, greedy, etc.

Pretty sure it's no skin off his back.

????That’s backlash. It doesn’t have tonbe a big deal

It’s not like I’m saying he is getting jail time. But 75 ish percent on a tsn poll want him to sign a sheet

 

[thewave]

What does does any of this have to do with the fact that wingers got huge contracts in the cap era? Goalposts keep shifting here

In the first two years he was getting pushed around and doing passes to nobody behind the back. It's why some were on his case and Babcock demoted him. All was deserving. Nylander had it happen as well. The excuse, Mono. Seems like a lot of excuses. He isn't a franchise player and really shouldn't get the money for it. He got some pts in the Boston series as they were hard on him but he was timid. Guy has no shot, they know he passes, easy peasy.

8.5m x 5. No worries. 9.5m x 7

 

[MyBudJT]

I don't agree with the post you quoted leaving Marner out at all, but I also don't agree with how you've chosen to skew things to make Marner look better either.

Matthews missed 14 games. This is not a point that should be overlooked or used against him.
When Matthews was in the lineup he was as good as anyone on this team.

If you wanna look purely at points.
Auston was on pace for 45 goals and 88 points
Mitch had 25 goals and 91 points (at ES and PP)

*I left out PK simply for the sake of best comparison. As Matthews didn't play PK and otherwise their icetime/game was near identical on the season

LOL.

1) If Matthews is injury prone, that shouldnt be overlooked either

2) You're cherry picking stats to try and make Marner look worse...

 

[MyBudJT]

In the first two years he was getting pushed around and doing passes to nobody behind the back. It's why some were on his case and Babcock demoted him. All was deserving. Nylander had it happen as well. The excuse, Mono. Seems like a lot of excuses. He isn't a franchise player and really shouldn't get the money for it. He got some pts in the Boston series as they were hard on him and he was timid. Guy has no shot, they know he passes, easy peasy.

8.5m x 5. No worries. 9.5m x 7

Oh, but this is where you're wrong. Marner belongs in the convo with the Kanes and St. Louiss of the world.

 

[Sypher04]

In year 2 Matthews had far better support.

How do you figure? By playing with 2 sophomore wingers? Matthews had Nylander & Hyman who combined for just 101 points.

Marner had predominantly Bozak, JVR, Kadri & Marleau. Every single one of those is a quality NHL veteran who scores ~20g/50p or more. (edit: actually I think Marleau was mid 40s)

Nylander may be the best of the bunch, but every single one of those 4 linemates for Marner are better than Hyman.

Marner also played on powerplay 1, while Matthews was on powerplay 2.

 

[Sypher04]

LOL.

1) If Matthews is injury prone, that shouldnt be overlooked either

2) You're cherry picking stats to try and make Marner look worse...

You're kidding, right?

1) Matthews isn't injury prone simply because he's been injured a couple times. He missed time, yeah, but if you're trying to compare who is better, why would you compare Marner's 82 games numbers against Matthews 68 games numbers and just omit context. That's misleading at best.
2) How am I cherry picking? I left out 3 points because they came from on-ice situations only 1 is being played in. If anything, I balanced out the icetime to nearly exactly the same. Obviously, the pace side of things on Matthews side enters a grain of salt, but it's not like I was suggesting he was gonna play at like a 1.6ppg or something. It was just maintaining his 1.07 which is entirely reasonable.

I've done precisely nothing here in any attempt to make Marner look worse.

 

[Notsince67]

GOAL scorers get more.

Ovechkin got more too.

Centres got more

Goal scoring C get the most. That’s just how it goes. Including what dubas himself said.

I don’t see what the point is? The leafs don’t have the money in the budget to sign Marner for Matthews money. They decided he wasn’t worth that based on comparable s.

To this point NO other team has decided to offer sheet him. So he isn’t worth that to anyone else

If no one will pay him. Then what?

Stamkos is a center with more goals that Kutcherov in the same comparable years. Kucherov got paid more.
Toews is a center with more goals than kane in their ELC. They got paid the same. How long are you going to push this?

 

[Notsince67]

In the first two years he was getting pushed around and doing passes to nobody behind the back. It's why some were on his case and Babcock demoted him. All was deserving. Nylander had it happen as well. The excuse, Mono. Seems like a lot of excuses. He isn't a franchise player and really shouldn't get the money for it. He got some pts in the Boston series as they were hard on him but he was timid. Guy has no shot, they know he passes, easy peasy.

8.5m x 5. No worries. 9.5m x 7

He either got more support or he didn't. Now you shift the goal posts yet again. Are you saying he didn't get more support?

 

[Notsince67]

How do you figure? By playing with 2 sophomore wingers? Matthews had Nylander & Hyman who combined for just 101 points.

Marner had predominantly Bozak, JVR, Kadri & Marleau. Every single one of those is a quality NHL veteran who scores ~20g/50p or more. (edit: actually I think Marleau was mid 40s)

Nylander may be the best of the bunch, but every single one of those 4 linemates for Marner are better than Hyman.

Marner also played on powerplay 1, while Matthews was on powerplay 2.

I posted QoT numbers for year 1,2 & 3. Among all forwards who played 500 minutes or more that year 5x5 in that year 2, Matthews QoT was around the 88th percentile while Marner was around the 57th. That is approx a 31 percentile difference. Ir really isn't close.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

LOL.

1) If Matthews is injury prone, that shouldnt be overlooked either

2) You're cherry picking stats to try and make Marner look worse...

Agreed. I'm so tired of the "on pace" nonsense. The facts are that:

Matthews was injured.
Matthews scored 73 points.

This is not BASHING or BLAMING Matthews, those are just FACTS.

 

[thewave]

Oh, but this is where you're wrong. Marner belongs in the convo with the Kanes and St. Louiss of the world.

Nah not yet, he is a fakey franchise player. JT elevates players like mad. Put Nylander with him and watch 88 look like a Kane, especially if his aim is on this season

 

[DarkKnight]

Greedy? They are negotiating a contract and he is trying to get the best deal possible. That is not greedy IMO.

Matthews really did the team a solid too with his contract and term.

 

[Sypher04]

Agreed. I'm so tired of the "on pace" nonsense. The facts are that:

Matthews was injured.
Matthews scored 73 points.

This is not BASHING or BLAMING Matthews, those are just FACTS.

Fine. Let's do this a different way.

In games both Marner and Matthews actually played.

Matthews 73 points.
Marner 76 points.

Whether you take out the games Matthews missed from the comparison or you use his pace to estimate where he finishes, the point remains the same. He produced a similar clip to Marner when in the lineup and with far less help

This doesn't change how amazing Marner is or that he had 94 points to Matthews' 73. But it does provide context when people to try to use this 21 point gap in raw totals to say Marner is better than Matthews. To that point however, I'm very clearly on record saying I think you can make arguments for either one being better, though I personally give the edge to Matthews. I just think people should be forced to use comparisons that are not intentionally misleading like raw totals.

Yes, if you have two players who both are amazing and put up lots of points, and one plays more, odds are he's gonna get more points. That's just logic.