Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[diceman934]

you say that but it is a bit uncharitable IMO.
Screwed out of bonuses.
After Matthews gets signed an RFA deal, Dubas comes out and says centers get paid more even though there is evidence that shows elite wingers have been paid elite money. It was not an off the cuff remark. He was purposely showing his intent to value Marner lower despite anything he has accomplished. He didn't say goal scorers...he said centers.
Such a dumb thing to say publicly. The money after taxes really doesn't amount to much if Dubas' offer is reasonable. If Dubas is offering 9mm x 7, it would be one of the cheapest winger contracts tendered for a winger close to the 163 points in the last 2 years of their ELC. Funny thing is that it might have worked had Matthews signed for 7 years. He is not greedy for not selling 2 UFA Years at that price.
Just to put it into perspective....
Kane signed for the equivalent of 9.04MM for 5 years. He resigned for 15.22% of the cap when he was done or the equivalent of 12.40MM. 7 yield would have yielded him 10.0MM on average. At that point, he had left Toews in the dust performance wise but he maintained the same cap hit for his team mate. One might argue that he was worth more. Why is Marner greedy when he gets paid less that a comparable guy who took a pay cut for his team mate to make the same money as him? It makes no sense.

At this point we have no idea what the offer is but it seems to me that even at 10 for 7 given that Matthews is 11.6 for 5 , it seems like a bit of a low balling from Dubas relatively speaking. I'm not saying that Marner should be paid the world but the distain here is focused on the wrong guy. Dubas is the one who created this mess.

Dubas has a big mouth and he should have it sewn up. He started all this no nonsense.

Marner is not being greedy he out performed his team mates and wants to be paid the same on the same terms. Had Dubas not gotten bent over twice we would not be in this predicament or had he signed him last summer at a good cap hit for 8 years he would have gotten Mathews on a better cap hit for a longer term as well. The man is proven to be horrid at negotiating contracts and lacks forth though.

 

[diceman934]

You put a lot of faith in sport science doctors to know who the best player is and the advanced analytics confidence intervals. You are painting a picture of fantasy land

I though I was Paul. What a joke of a reply...

 

[biotk]

Paying players MORE money for lower stats isn't exactly a good place to start...

Sure, under the reasoning of "Every teams front office has professionals much more knowledgeable than me or you", then quite literally every signing/trade/draft pick (etc) is beyond criticism. And every gm is equally as good as every other gm.

So I guess Dubas has been a genius for his signings... but so has every other gm EVER with EVERY decision they've all ever made.

And no matter what Marner signs for, it will be GENIUS. No matter what.

Wait….so now your argument is that NHL front offices screw up all the time, but Dubas should emulate them. And your other argument is that all the GMs are the same. So what are you crying about? That means that clearly every GM would have paid Matthews what Dubas and every GM would be refusing to pay Marner what he wants.

 

[ORRFForever]

Again this is the same "if only the professionals knew as much as random people on the internet know" nonsense. The Leafs knew that the cap might only go up as little as it did. They planned for it, like they planned for every contingency. The reality is - and whether you like it not doesn't matter - the Leafs felt that Matthews was worth his contract, and they feel that Marner is worth no more than then they are offering him. Again, you can disagree with that but it doesn't change anything.

If the Leafs felt that Marner was worth more and were caught by surprise by the cap going up as little as it did they wouldn't have signed one of (or some combination of) Johnsson, Kapanen, Kerfoot or Ceci. They would have traded one of them away for prospects or picks to free up money. But the Leafs have not attempted to open up a single extra dollar of cap space (you can go look at the 3 trades and then the signings - there were no cap savings - but instead a slight increase) because they have assessed what they feel Marner is worth and they are sticking to it.

The lack of understanding is not on the Leafs end. It is on your end.​

Wait! This from the same group that over paid Nylander, right?

***

As Matthews biggest supporter (you), this is the year, biotk. No more excuses for your boy. He has his money, he has his winger, he has his health, so it is a Hart Nomination or bust. You continually brag about how great he is so let's see it. If he doesn't get there in 2019/2020, let's hear no more excuses from you.

 

[TOGuy14]

Here's the problem for me...

Clearly Matthews wasn't paid for his ppg statistics. No player UNDER a ppg over elc has ever signed such a ridiculous cap percentage for their post elc contract, especially at a 5 year term.

This was rationalized by his goal scoring.

So the precedent has been set. Dubas pays for elite g/60, and doesn't care much for total points or ppg.

I just now want that precedent to be upheld. THAT'S how Dubas is paying players. The proof is in the pudding. The POINTS don't really matter. Dubas pays for goals.

The entire metric used to evaluate a leaf players worth can't keep changing based on each individual leaf players strength.

If Matthews signed a very team friendly deal, and the rationalization was (comparatively) low ppg and total points, then I'd have no problem whatsoever with paying Marner through the roof based on his point totals (with his low goal totals not playing into the evaluation).

But to pay Matthews based on goals compared to other players (with points barely mattering), and then to pay Marner based on points compared to other players (with goals barely mattering)... yeah, that I call bull**** on.

Have you ever heard of Jack Eichel...?

 

[ORRFForever]

Thanks for the input Paul.

You too, Ema.

 

[ORRFForever]

I though I was Paul.

Wait! I thought I was Paul?

 

[ORRFForever]

I simply know that they know a million times more than you do, but yet are far less arrogant.

I wonder how many posters have wanted to send the EXACT same post to you?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Wait….so now your argument is that NHL front offices screw up all the time, but Dubas should emulate them. And your other argument is that all the GMs are the same. So what are you crying about? That means that clearly every GM would have paid Matthews what Dubas and every GM would be refusing to pay Marner what he wants.

I'm mocking your argument that GM's are beyond criticism because they know better than fans on the internet.
Are you suggesting that some gm's aren't better than others, even though they all have front offices with analytics depeartments?

 

[Martin Skoula]

most where on the pp remember.

Lol JVR has always been an elite PP player with or without Marner.

JVR almost tripled his G/60 at ES away from Marner with big sample sizes on both. Marner was in no way responsible for JVR's goalscoring season. If anything he kept him from hitting 40.

Why are you so desperate to make Marner look better than he is? He can be an elite playmaker without giving out career years like candy.

 

[diceman934]

Wasn't that the same year you guys keep saying Marner went PPG++ with Kadri? Wasn't that the same year where JVR scored 10 or so goals in the last month of the season - you know, the same time that Marner was going PPG++ with Kadri or whatever.

Seems like JVR was on pace for yet another 30 goal season until Marner was moved off his line.

Edit: 13 goals in JVR's last 13 games, so a 27 goal pace without that Marner-less hot streak.

Lol 13 goals in his last 22 games and JVR best season was with Marner Better then when he played with Kessel.

 

[ORRFForever]

Excuses for Matthews over the last year(s)...

1) He's still injured;
2) His wingers suck;
3) Babcock isn't using him properly;
4) Babcock is picking on him;
5) He doesn't want to get injured and risk his big payday.

NO MORE EXCUSES IN 2019 / 2020 !!!!

 

[biotk]

Wait! This from the same group that over paid Nylander, right?

After negotiating Nylander down all the way to the deadline. At that time they had to make a decision - pay him a bit more than they wanted to or lose him for the season, and then trade him in the summer undoubtedly for a big loss.

As Matthews biggest supporter (you), this is the year, biotk.

This has nothing to do with me. All I am saying is that it appears that the team feels Matthews is far more valuable than you do, and the team feels that Marner is less valuable that you do. Their decision was probably far more detailed and informed than the caricatures that are made here. They might be wrong. But if I had money on the line I would bet on the Leafs head office being correct over random, angry internet poster.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Have you ever heard of Jack Eichel...?

His ppg was similar to Matthews.

I would have been ok with the Eichel contract plus cap inflation for Matthews.

Now, if you're going to counter with Matthews goals vs Eicehl, then I'm just going to be consistent with that and point out that Marner scores significantly less goals than pretty much every comparable listed in these threads.

 

[diceman934]

Lol JVR has always been an elite PP player with or without Marner.

JVR almost tripled his G/60 at ES away from Marner with big sample sizes on both. Marner was in no way responsible for JVR's goalscoring season. If anything he kept him from hitting 40.

Why are you so desperate to make Marner look better than he is? He can be an elite playmaker without giving out career years like candy.

It is true. JVR 62 point season with Marner, Bozak 55 point season with Marner. I posted all facts. No fiction. I am just sick of the narrative that Marner leached off of JT when he had the most points. It really is ridiculous that the narrative exists.

You said he can be an elite playermaker. He is an Elite play maker already or did you miss last season.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It is true. JVR 62 point season with Marner, Bozak 55 point season with Marner. I posted all facts. No fiction. I am just sick of the narrative that Marner leached off of JT when he had the most points. It really is ridiculous that the narrative exists.

You said he can be an elite playermaker. He is an Elite play maker already or did you miss last season.

You were talking about their best goalscoring seasons, why do you keep twisting your words to fit this weird Marner obsession you have?

Yeah he's an elite playmaker. He isn't a generational player that gives everyone he looks at a career best. Getting JVR 2 more points than his Kessel season doesn't mean anything. Getting Bozak a few more points doesn't either. The team around them in general got way better than it was with Kessel.

Having a 6 extra secondary assists doesn't do anything to convince me he carried Tavares like people keep pretending. Marner did his job, nothing more nothing less.

 

[ORRFForever]

After negotiating Nylander down all the way to the deadline. At that time they had to make a decision - pay him a bit more than they wanted to or lose him for the season, and then trade him in the summer undoubtedly for a big loss.



This has nothing to do with me. All I am saying is that it appears that the team feels Matthews is far more valuable than you do, and the team feels that Marner is less valuable that you do. Their decision was probably far more detailed and informed than the caricatures that are made here. They might be wrong. But if I had money on the line I would bet on the Leafs head office being correct over random, angry internet poster.

They still overpaid Nylander in a big way, right? 8 goals, including the playoffs, from December on. Pretty smart group.

As for Matthews, this is about the Matthews apologists. You keep posting, saying how great he is and how much better he is than Marner.

Okay, let's see it. Again, NO more excuses if he doesn't perform....

Hart Nom Or Bust For Matthews !!!

 

[diceman934]

Yup, sure was. He played precisely half the year without Marrner IIRC.

Yet another distortion by Diceman.

Go look for your self genius. 62 points playing with Marner. Fact is not distortion. Talk about an stupid statement.

 

[biotk]

I wonder how many posters have wanted to send the EXACT same post to you?

I would assume lots.

But this thread has been great.

"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)

"Is it possible that maybe the Leafs front office knows more about their own players than random fans who have never even met them?" (Arrogant)

 

[diceman934]

You were talking about their best goalscoring seasons, why do you keep twisting your words to fit this weird Marner obsession you have?

Yeah he's an elite playmaker. He isn't a generational player that gives everyone he looks at a career best. Getting JVR 2 more points than his Kessel season doesn't mean anything. Getting Bozak a few more points doesn't either. The team around them in general got way better than it was with Kessel.

Having a 6 extra secondary assists doesn't do anything to convince me he carried Tavares like people keep pretending. Marner did his job, nothing more nothing less.

What a joke. You are a piece of work. He did exactly what I said he did. Sorry it bothers you.

 

[ORRFForever]

I would assume lots.

But this thread has been great.

"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)
"Dubas is an idiot because he doesn't do exactly what I think he should do" (Not arrogant)

"Is it possible that maybe the Leafs front office knows more about their own players than random fans who have never even met them?" (Arrogant)

Please show me an example.

 

[Stephen]

Wait! This from the same group that over paid Nylander, right?

***

As Matthews biggest supporter (you), this is the year, biotk. No more excuses for your boy. He has his money, he has his winger, he has his health, so it is a Hart Nomination or bust. You continually brag about how great he is so let's see it. If he doesn't get there in 2019/2020, let's hear no more excuses from you.

We don't really need excuses for Matthews because he's performing quite well as a first overall franchise center. The reality is it's just hard to become a championship franchise center. That kind of evolution takes time.

It's funny. Over the course of their ELC's, Matthews has basically been played with Nylander, Hyman, Johnsson, Kapanen, Brown and very briefly Patrick Marleau. For the bulk of his career he's been thrown out there and been asked to make it work with other kids breaking into the league. And he's made it work.

In contrast, Marner broke into the league with JVR and Bozak, essentially taking the Phil Kessel role on that former run and gun big line. And not counting brief demotions over the first two years, Marner then ended up on John Tavares' line in Year 3. Tavares is an $11 million franchise centerman.

What I'm saying here is Marner has always been set up well to succeed offensively with plenty of veteran support. The idea that he's stirring the drink is fine. But I'd say he's always been surrounded by more talent than Matthews. It would be an interesting experiment if we suddenly acquired Patrick Kane for Matthews to play with.

 

[biotk]

They still overpaid Nylander in a big way, right? 8 goals, including the playoffs, from December on. Pretty smart group.

So you think that they determined what to pay him based on his performance in the months after the contract was signed?

As for Matthews, this is about the Matthews apologists. You keep posting, saying how great he is and how much better he is than Marner.

Actually what I have been saying is that Leafs' management thinks Matthews is significantly more valuable than Marner. That should be obvious. I do think that Matthews is a lot better, but I think that is a useless argument at this time. So I make it pretty simple - even if it turns out that you are correct that Matthews sucks and Marner is the greated thing since Wayne Gretzky, Leafs management at this time appears to completely disagree with you.

 

[Stephen]

It is true. JVR 62 point season with Marner, Bozak 55 point season with Marner. I posted all facts. No fiction. I am just sick of the narrative that Marner leached off of JT when he had the most points. It really is ridiculous that the narrative exists.

You said he can be an elite playermaker. He is an Elite play maker already or did you miss last season.

Everyone watching JT and Mitch play knows there's no leeching going, but you have to admit that when we start making Matthews vs Marner comparisons, one of the ingredients that's missing is a JT equivalent winger for Matthews, who was with two rookies last season.

What's Marner's stats line going to look like on a line with Kerfoot and Moore?

 

[Martin Skoula]

What a joke. You are a piece of work. He did exactly what I said he did. Sorry it bothers you.

You don't need to get so mad about getting called on getting caught in such blatant distortions to try and win an argument online. Just do better next time.

Marner, a playmaker, somehow made JVR get 2 more assists than usual while keeping his goal totals consistent from before, and that's proof that Marner is the reason JVR had a "career year" in a year with massive turnover and a completely new PP (including Rielly finally getting PP time).

But JVR scoring goals at a almost 3x the pace away from Marner than with Marner the very next season gets completely ignored because it doesn't fit your narrative.