Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[ORRFForever]

Marner plays with JVR has his best goal scoring year. Plays with JT who has his best goal scoring year. Plays less then half a season with Kadri and Kadri has his best goal scoring year. Plays with Bozak and Bozak has his best year in points as a Leaf when Mitch was a rookie. That includes him playing with Kessel. Let’s look at Marleau who produced at 63point pace the last 37 games including playoffs. Yeah he was carried by JT this year. My lord I find it hard to understand how people can claim they know anything about hockey abs then say that Mitch does not drive offence.

He is a franchise player.

He's terrific. Still think, in a perfect world, Matthews is worth $10.5M and Marner is worth $9.5M.

 

[ORRFForever]

That's being generous.

Theres more like a very mall but very vocal group that overrated Marners abilities.

I'd say about 80% of the fanbase doesnt see it as competition between the two.

You lost me. Help a dummy like me understand.

 

[MyBudJT]

Ok in the cap era which winger has signed for 13% of the cap? Maybe Ovie did but he’s the greatest goal scorer ever.

Vanek,
St. Louis
Nash
Gaborik
Havlat
Kovalchuk
Hossa

 

[ORRFForever]

...or Ceci 4.5MM. If Dubas needs cap for that, he shouldn't have anymore.

I love Marner but he got greedy. He waited too long to sign - in the hope of ensuring he got what Matthews got.

A bird in hand, Mitch, a bird in hand.

 

[Notsince67]

Ok in the cap era which winger has signed for 13% of the cap? Maybe Ovie did but he’s the greatest goal scorer ever.

Nash, Rick

Havlat, Martin

Vanek, Thomas

Kovalchuk, Ilya

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Clark4Ever]

I definitely will never understand the motivations of a player to hold out for +/- 10% of his salary to play for a team that he supposedly idolised growing up which is extremely competitive, and since they spend to the cap every year, every cap dollar you yield makes the team better. You're going to end up with $100mm+ career earnings any way you slice it.

I am by no means in the income bracket of these guys, but I'm a pretty highly compensated guy, and I've left money on the table to be in the position and team I want to be on. Consistent with the well-understood economics concept of declining marginal propensity to spend as income scales up, I could also sure use those extra dollars a lot more than Mitch -- or his great-great grandchildren -- could.

It's just bizarre, and difficult to relate to.

I couldn't agree more. It's even more infuriating (and short sighted on his part) since he's a Toronto kid.

He is damaging his brand, and that could cost him dearly in the long run in terms of potential endorsements and other business opportunities beyond retirement. Of course, his agent couldn't care less about that since he only earns a percentage of Marner's contract.

 

[ORRFForever]

I couldn't agree more. It's even more infuriating (and short sighted on his part) since he's a Toronto kid.

He is damaging his brand, and that could cost him dearly in the long run in terms of potential endorsements and other business opportunities beyond retirement. Of course, his agent couldn't care less about that since he only earns a percentage of Marner's contract.

As long as he signs here, people will line up to have the Canadian hockey star with the boyish good looks represent their products. If he leaves, he will lose a lot. That's why I don't think he wants to leave.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Vanek,
St. Louis
Nash
Gaborik
Havlat
Kovalchuk
Hossa

I know you were just answering his question...

But still, I'd like to point out that every one of those players scores significantly more goals than Marner.

While you successfully proved one point by listing those players, it also brings up a counterpoint. Teams seem to pay more for goals.

Also, some of those players were under an entirely different cba and didn't sign those contracts until like 5 elc years. Also, some of those players signed those contracts AFTER their post elc bridge.

 

[diceman934]

Matthews isn't perfect but him and his camp handled the contract negotiations way more professionally. You didn't see his agent slamming anyone. His parents don't talk publicly and come to virtually every home game. Not even debatable that Matthews has proven to be more mature and professional.

Lol. Babcock went to visit him to bring him flowers. The contract negotiations was Dubas bending over and giving him the best contract in the league by a large margin and while announcing it tossing out digs at Marner.

 

[diceman934]

He's terrific. Still think, in a perfect world, Matthews is worth $10.5M and Marner is worth $9.5M.

I would give them both 10m per and be done with it.

 

[Clark4Ever]

As long as he signs here, people will line up to have the cute Canadian boy represent their products. If he leaves, he will lose a lot. That's why I don't think he wants to leave.

I don't know about that. The longer this saga drags out, the more irreparable the damage will become.

He's already made it clear that he won't sign a long term deal here and wants to be eligible for unrestricted free agency at the earliest opportunity. He's also demanding an AAV that is unreasonable based on every reasonable comparable.

Most people wouldn't fault the kid for not giving the Leafs a hometown discount and wanting to be compensated fairly. This goes way beyond that, and it leaves a foul taste in peoples mouths. He is trying to milk every last penny out of the organization, and that level of greed is not conducive to cultivating a positive image or brand.

 

[ORRFForever]

I would give them both 10m per and be done with it.

I could live with that.

 

[ORRFForever]

I don't know about that. The longer this saga drags out, the more irreparable the damage will become.

He's already made it clear that he won't sign a long term deal here and wants to be eligible for unrestricted free agency at the earliest opportunity. He's also demanding an AAV that is unreasonable based on every reasonable comparable.

Most people wouldn't fault the kid for not giving the Leafs a hometown discount and wanting to be compensated fairly. This goes way beyond that, and it leaves a foul taste in peoples mouths. He is trying to milk every last penny out of the organization, and that level of greed is not conducive to cultivating a positive image or brand.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[diceman934]

There was a certain poster on here blaming JVR and Bozak for Marner's struggles a couple seasons ago. I believe the comment was "he got tired of carrying JVR and Bozak".
Last time I checked, one of those players is a Stanley cup champion.
The funny thing is Brown had no problem on that line.

Bozak had his best year playing with Marner as did JVR. So now what.

 

[Leafs1993]

If by "cringey" (not a real word) you mean "true" or "accurate", then yes, I agree.

Whatever floats your boat!

 

[Martin Skoula]

Bozak had his best year playing with Marner as did JVR. So now what.

Wasn't that the same year you guys keep saying Marner went PPG++ with Kadri? Wasn't that the same year where JVR scored 10 or so goals in the last month of the season - you know, the same time that Marner was going PPG++ with Kadri or whatever.

Seems like JVR was on pace for yet another 30 goal season until Marner was moved off his line.

Edit: 13 goals in JVR's last 13 games, so a 27 goal pace without that Marner-less hot streak.

 

[ORRFForever]

Whatever floats your boat!

 

[Legion34]

It's not 'right or wrong', it's wrong.

What that Mitch’s father comes across like an angry guy living through his son?

That’s kinda on him

 

[IPS]

Bozak had his best year playing with Marner as did JVR. So now what.

No he had his best year playing with Kessel, his year was cut short via injury. Marner's plenty good at elevating his linemates and he doesn't need lying and distortion to prove it.

 

[IPS]

Wasn't that the same year you guys keep saying Marner went PPG++ with Kadri? Wasn't that the same year where JVR scored 10 or so goals in the last month of the season - you know, the same time that Marner was going PPG++ with Kadri or whatever.

Seems like JVR was on pace for yet another 30 goal season until Marner was moved off his line.

Edit: 13 goals in JVR's last 13 games, so a 27 goal pace without that Marner-less hot streak.

Yup, sure was. He played precisely half the year without Marrner IIRC.

Yet another distortion by Diceman.

 

[Legion34]

Is he? Source?

As far as I know we haven't heard from him in 6-8 months, and have only ever heard from him 2-3 times in the four years since we drafted Marner.

And those 4 times were how many more than any one else’s?

 

[Legion34]

Nash, Rick

Havlat, Martin

Vanek, Thomas

Kovalchuk, Ilya

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Havlat wasn’t an elc when the cap came in

The rest were considered the best goal scorers in the league at the time

 

[Martin Skoula]

Yup, sure was. He played precisely half the year without Marrner IIRC.

Yet another distortion by Diceman.

Always curious when people put a player over the team to the degree that they have to lie and make up reasons why the player needs to be overpaid and hurt his teams odds of winning.

I have a feeling this board is going to lose a couple hundred members if Marner gets traded.

Wonder what he thinks about Tavares and Matthews best goalscoring seasons coming with Hyman on their wings every game? Gonna be hard to have 2 wingers making 11 mil.

 

[Notsince67]

I love Marner but he got greedy. He waited too long to sign - in the hope of ensuring he got what Matthews got.

A bird in hand, Mitch, a bird in hand.

you say that but it is a bit uncharitable IMO.
Screwed out of bonuses.
After Matthews gets signed an RFA deal, Dubas comes out and says centers get paid more even though there is evidence that shows elite wingers have been paid elite money. It was not an off the cuff remark. He was purposely showing his intent to value Marner lower despite anything he has accomplished. He didn't say goal scorers...he said centers.
Such a dumb thing to say publicly. The money after taxes really doesn't amount to much if Dubas' offer is reasonable. If Dubas is offering 9mm x 7, it would be one of the cheapest winger contracts tendered for a winger close to the 163 points in the last 2 years of their ELC. Funny thing is that it might have worked had Matthews signed for 7 years. He is not greedy for not selling 2 UFA Years at that price.
Just to put it into perspective....
Kane signed for the equivalent of 9.04MM for 5 years. He resigned for 15.22% of the cap when he was done or the equivalent of 12.40MM. 7 yield would have yielded him 10.0MM on average. At that point, he had left Toews in the dust performance wise but he maintained the same cap hit for his team mate. One might argue that he was worth more. Why is Marner greedy when he gets paid less that a comparable guy who took a pay cut for his team mate to make the same money as him? It makes no sense.

At this point we have no idea what the offer is but it seems to me that even at 10 for 7 given that Matthews is 11.6 for 5 , it seems like a bit of a low balling from Dubas relatively speaking. I'm not saying that Marner should be paid the world but the distain here is focused on the wrong guy. Dubas is the one who created this mess.

 

[ORRFForever]

Always curious when people put a player over the team to the degree that they have to lie and make up reasons why the player needs to be overpaid and hurt his teams odds of winning.

I have a feeling this board is going to lose a couple hundred members if Marner gets traded.

LOL.

A couple of times I have caught myself thinking, "I hope Matthews gets hurt so the Leafs and Matthews fans realize how important Marner is." Then I think, "What the heck is wrong with me?!?!"