Tribute Marner Appreciation Thread

[Gabriel426]

Marner has only played 12 playoff elimination (someone might be going home) games and his stats:

1 goal and 8 points in those 12 games.

Guess how many points Kucherov has in his last 17 playoff elimination games?

Don’t do this.

I agree that MM is having a better season than Kuch.
But don’t go there with MM is a better playoff performer or better at elimination games than Kuch bc Kuch actually led his team to two Cups and one Cup Finals the past three years. Someone who either assisted and scored game winning or game tying goals in the playoffs including Cup Finals.
If your argument is if they switch teams, MM would have won Cups too, same can be argue Leafs might win the Cup or Cups if Kuch is in MM’s spot too.
Just leave it as MM is performing better than Kuch sofar this season.

 

[Stephen]

Don’t do this.

I agree that MM is having a better season than Kuch.
But don’t go there with MM is a better playoff performer or better at elimination games than Kuch bc Kuch actually led his team to two Cups and one Cup Finals the past three years. Someone who either assisted and scored game winning or game tying goals in the playoffs including Cup Finals.
If your argument is if they switch teams, MM would have won Cups too, same can be argue Leafs might win the Cup or Cups if Kuch is in MM’s spot too.
Just leave it as MM is performing better than Kuch sofar this season.

I would just leave the Kucherov vs Marner debates alone and just let Marner develop his own legacy as a unique offensive player, defensively capable and hopefully a winner. There is no reason to into debate mode to try and take down a big dog, that's for Marner to do on the ice head to head.

 

[Gabriel426]

I would just leave the Kucherov vs Marner debates alone and just let Marner develop his own legacy as a unique offensive player, defensively capable and hopefully a winner. There is no reason to into debate mode to try and take down a big dog, that's for Marner to do on the ice head to head.

Exactly. That’s why I don’t understand why some here needs to constantly prove in this case, MM that he is better than anyone but McD in the league.
To me, win the Cup and that’s the player’s legacy.
Bc I would rather have the boys(Leafs) be one of the better players in the league and win multiple Cups for the Leafs than being the top players in the league with no playoffs success.
Even when Gretzky at his prime, he didn’t win every year in the playoffs but he did managed to win 4. Mario with 2. Lindros got zero.

 

[authentic]

God no. They want to set the tone and let Tampa know what’s coming.

You're right. I just don't trust Tampa's players.

 

[Zybalto]

Don’t do this.

I agree that MM is having a better season than Kuch.
But don’t go there with MM is a better playoff performer or better at elimination games than Kuch bc Kuch actually led his team to two Cups and one Cup Finals the past three years. Someone who either assisted and scored game winning or game tying goals in the playoffs including Cup Finals.
If your argument is if they switch teams, MM would have won Cups too, same can be argue Leafs might win the Cup or Cups if Kuch is in MM’s spot too.
Just leave it as MM is performing better than Kuch sofar this season.

The answer is that he has 1 goal and 8 assists in his last 17 elimination games....the same production as Marner in his 12.

I was replying to a description of Kucherov being this killer in big games and that just wasnt the case...but thats not really the slam on him it appears. A lot of big stars go somewhat invisible in big playoff games which are close-checking, low-scoring affairs and Tampa's hero, the reason for all of their success has been Vasy of course.

In those 17 games (which Tampa never scored more than 4 goals in and only twice):

6 shutouts
2 or less goals allowed in 13 of the games

I assure you it hasnt been choking D that is the reason Vasy has close to a .950 in these games. For all his accolades, he still doesnt get enough credit.

Kucherov has been very impressive overall in the playoffs though just not when things really tighten up. The fact his production was so poor in those games and he still ended up with crazy numbers shows he's probably the guy who got them there in the first place.

I mean, the bottom 6 has been far more clutch than the top 6 for Tampa in big games and I think it's why Tampa would make such an absurd-looking trade this year thinking they would strike gold again.

As far as "switching" players, just give me one Vasy like night on the Leafs for once in a big game. I'm getting sick of watching old Belfour games to watch the last time the Leafs had playoff goaltending in a big game.

 

[Gabriel426]

The answer is that he has 1 goal and 8 assists in his last 17 elimination games....the same production as Marner in his 12.

I was replying to a description of Kucherov being this killer in big games and that just wasnt the case...but thats not really the slam on him it appears. A lot of big stars go somewhat invisible in big playoff games which are close-checking, low-scoring affairs and Tampa's hero, the reason for all of their success has been Vasy of course.

In those 17 games (which Tampa never scored more than 4 goals in and only twice):

6 shutouts
2 or less goals allowed in 13 of the games

I assure you it hasnt been choking D that is the reason Vasy has close to a .950 in these games. For all his accolades, he still doesnt get enough credit.

Kucherov has been very impressive overall in the playoffs though just not when things really tighten up. The fact his production was so poor in those games and he still ended up with crazy numbers shows he's probably the guy who got them there in the first place.

I mean, the bottom 6 has been far more clutch than the top 6 for Tampa in big games and I think it's why Tampa would make such an absurd-looking trade this year thinking they would strike gold again.

As far as "switching" players, just give me one Vasy like night on the Leafs for once in a big game. I'm getting sick of watching old Belfour games to watch the last time the Leafs had playoff goaltending in a big game.

I think one of the reasons why top stars don’t usually score those big goals, like Sid with the golden goal in 2010, beside tight checking, best on best…is the fatigue factor. Top guys just don’t play as much on a regular basis in the regular season as they do in the playoffs while goalies still play 60mins or less (penalty advantage and empty net) unless it goes to OT. That’s why it is usually the 3rd or 4th liner who scores those OT goals bc they are just fresher.

Also, MM’s elimination games are either Game 4,5,6 or 7 in the playoffs, while Kuch might be Game 5,6,15,18,20 in the playoffs. Not going to get into different teams and matchups…but as mentioned above, fatigue will play more of a factor the more the players play in the playoffs. Then again, it goes both ways with the opposing teams too.

IMO, Vasy is by far the best player in the playoffs over the past three years. And there is a reason why Goalie usually wins the Conn Symthe.

I think Vas gets a lot of credits already. The thing is and this applies to all series and all teams, all a team needs to advance in the playoffs is to have their goalie be the best player in 4 of the 7 games in the series. The key is to make sure the opposing goalie is at most the best player in 3 games. Easier said than done.

 

[Notsince67]

The answer is that he has 1 goal and 8 assists in his last 17 elimination games....the same production as Marner in his 12.

I was replying to a description of Kucherov being this killer in big games and that just wasnt the case...but thats not really the slam on him it appears. A lot of big stars go somewhat invisible in big playoff games which are close-checking, low-scoring affairs and Tampa's hero, the reason for all of their success has been Vasy of course.

In those 17 games (which Tampa never scored more than 4 goals in and only twice):

6 shutouts
2 or less goals allowed in 13 of the games

I assure you it hasnt been choking D that is the reason Vasy has close to a .950 in these games. For all his accolades, he still doesnt get enough credit.

Kucherov has been very impressive overall in the playoffs though just not when things really tighten up. The fact his production was so poor in those games and he still ended up with crazy numbers shows he's probably the guy who got them there in the first place.

I mean, the bottom 6 has been far more clutch than the top 6 for Tampa in big games and I think it's why Tampa would make such an absurd-looking trade this year thinking they would strike gold again.

As far as "switching" players, just give me one Vasy like night on the Leafs for once in a big game. I'm getting sick of watching old Belfour games to watch the last time the Leafs had playoff goaltending in a big game.

Well shit! There goes that theory. Kind of smoking gun mic drop against a couple of Marner bashers here.Kidding...they had pretty well zero credibility anyways. They might be a bit embarrassed though.

 

[Zybalto]

I think one of the reasons why top stars don’t usually score those big goals, like Sid with the golden goal in 2010, beside tight checking, best on best…is the fatigue factor. Top guys just don’t play as much on a regular basis in the regular season as they do in the playoffs while goalies still play 60mins or less (penalty advantage and empty net) unless it goes to OT. That’s why it is usually the 3rd or 4th liner who scores those OT goals bc they are just fresher.

Also, MM’s elimination games are either Game 4,5,6 or 7 in the playoffs, while Kuch might be Game 5,6,15,18,20 in the playoffs. Not going to get into different teams and matchups…but as mentioned above, fatigue will play more of a factor the more the players play in the playoffs. Then again, it goes both ways with the opposing teams too.

IMO, Vasy is by far the best player in the playoffs over the past three years. And there is a reason why Goalie usually wins the Conn Symthe.

I think Vas gets a lot of credits already. The thing is and this applies to all series and all teams, all a team needs to advance in the playoffs is to have their goalie be the best player in 4 of the 7 games in the series. The key is to make sure the opposing goalie is at most the best player in 3 games. Easier said than done.

Winning the series certainly helps boost anyones profile as well despite this being as big a complete team sport as any. Kucherov could have 0 points in those 17 games and no one would really notice because he was a winner.

Fatigue is also an issue to be sure, especially as series wear on and the stars are getting shifted harder but Tampa has also been in a crapload of long series and havnt gotten much rest between them at all so maybe Kuch just grabs his stick a little tight in those big games too? Who knows.

All I know is that Vasy gets the eye of the tiger in those big games. If theres any won position that affects the game more than others, it's goaltending of course. It's why the Leafs team playoff stats look so bizarre for a team not out of the first round. Averaging top 5 underlying stats out of the 25ish teams in the playoffs the last few years. Injuries, Oddly unbalanced officiating, poor finish (especially from the bottom 6) and of course, goaltending differential in big games (the biggest factor) looking to be the main issues. As I've posted before, 37-29 Leafs are the average shots in elimination games the last 3 years and goaltending is .940ish - .890ish for the opposing teams. People saying it's coaching or even the big stars (who tend to be the ones who actually show up in those games) drive me a little crazy.

Getting back to Marner, by FAR the biggest issue in the playoffs in the top 6 was Hyman. Absolutely brutal production after being set up time and time again, blowing breakaways, open nets, flubbing 2 on 1s, etc. Kampf had a higher P/60 last season than Hyman did the last 2 series with the Leafs. If he actually put in some of those chances, Marner would look a helluva lot better in hindsight (and the Leafs might have made some runs.

The Leafs last 4 series we have played against the Bruins (who had the best goalie of that years playoffs), Columbus ( who somehow have the highest playoff team save% of modern times with a 4-6 record), the Habs Carey Price going all world one last time and of course, the bolts with Vasy....while we have had Andersen (who allowed a super soft goal in key moments in every big game for the Leafs) and Campbell (Ditto).

Engvall, Mikheyev, Thornton, Clifford, Kapanen, etc......all pretty useless, especially the first two.

The last 3 years, 5v5, Engvall and Mikheyev combined for 3 assists in a combined 36 games played. Those are 2 of the top 6 for 5v5 TOI the last 3 seasons. I know we faced elite goaltending but jeez.

Revamp the goaltending and bottom 6 was my wish list coming into this year and, thankfully, thats exactly what happened. Now we get to test it out against another elite team (of course) but I'm feeling quite a bit better going in.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Winning the series certainly helps boost anyones profile as well despite this being as big a complete team sport as any. Kucherov could have 0 points in those 17 games and no one would really notice because he was a winner.

Fatigue is also an issue to be sure, especially as series wear on and the stars are getting shifted harder but Tampa has also been in a crapload of long series and havnt gotten much rest between them at all so maybe Kuch just grabs his stick a little tight in those big games too? Who knows.

All I know is that Vasy gets the eye of the tiger in those big games. If theres any won position that affects the game more than others, it's goaltending of course. It's why the Leafs team playoff stats look so bizarre for a team not out of the first round. Averaging top 5 underlying stats out of the 25ish teams in the playoffs the last few years. Injuries, Oddly unbalanced officiating, poor finish (especially from the bottom 6) and of course, goaltending differential in big games (the biggest factor) looking to be the main issues. As I've posted before, 37-29 Leafs are the average shots in elimination games the last 3 years and goaltending is .940ish - .890ish for the opposing teams. People saying it's coaching or even the big stars (who tend to be the ones who actually show up in those games) drive me a little crazy.

Getting back to Marner, by FAR the biggest issue in the playoffs in the top 6 was Hyman. Absolutely brutal production after being set up time and time again, blowing breakaways, open nets, flubbing 2 on 1s, etc. Kampf had a higher P/60 last season than Hyman did the last 2 series with the Leafs. If he actually put in some of those chances, Marner would look a helluva lot better in hindsight (and the Leafs might have made some runs.

The Leafs last 4 series we have played against the Bruins (who had the best goalie of that years playoffs), Columbus ( who somehow have the highest playoff team save% of modern times with a 4-6 record), the Habs Carey Price going all world one last time and of course, the bolts with Vasy....while we have had Andersen (who allowed a super soft goal in key moments in every big game for the Leafs) and Campbell (Ditto).

Engvall, Mikheyev, Thornton, Clifford, Kapanen, etc......all pretty useless, especially the first two.

The last 3 years, 5v5, Engvall and Mikheyev combined for 3 assists in a combined 36 games played. Those are 2 of the top 6 for 5v5 TOI the last 3 seasons. I know we faced elite goaltending but jeez.

Revamp the goaltending and bottom 6 was my wish list coming into this year and, thankfully, thats exactly what happened. Now we get to test it out against another elite team (of course) but I'm feeling quite a bit better going in.

Some valid points in there but still, out scored 11-2 in the 3 series deciding games in a 3 year span means lots of blame to go around and 2 goals scored in 3 games is to me, reason enough to say that the big guns who take up half the cap get a big share of the blame. If you keep getting stymied by the opposing goalies, what good are you? We see plenty of goals that the goalie has no chance to stop, why don't we ever see them at crunch time?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Like he literally just said the nhl has had like 20 superstars in thr history of the organization. So out of touch its crazy

Purely a matter of how a person defines 'superstar'.

Is a 'superstar' one of the ten best players ever? One of the best one hundred? Thousand? Ten thousand?

There are 293 players in the HHOF. Are they all 'superstars'?

I would say twenty or thirty would be a reasonable number, but I could accept someone saying only Gretzky, Orr, and Howe qualify.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Purely a matter of how a person defines 'superstar'.

Is a 'superstar' one of the ten best players ever? One of the best one hundred? Thousand? Ten thousand?

There are 293 players in the HHOF. Are they all 'superstars'?

I would say twenty or thirty would be a reasonable number, but I could accept someone saying only Gretzky, Orr, and Howe qualify.

Yup. There have been so many pointless arguments about all these subjective terms like #1G, #1D, franchise player, generational player etc. when the answer is always the same - it's subjective so it means whatever you want it to mean.

My only issue with this post is that I can't agree with only Gretzky, Orr, and Howe qualifying - if those guys qualify then Lemieux should also be included.

 

[Zybalto]

Some valid points in there but still, out scored 11-2 in the 3 series deciding games in a 3 year span means lots of blame to go around and 2 goals scored in 3 games is to me, reason enough to say that the big guns who take up half the cap get a big share of the blame. If you keep getting stymied by the opposing goalies, what good are you? We see plenty of goals that the goalie has no chance to stop, why don't we ever see them at crunch time?

I'm less concerned about the goals the goalies have no chance to stop and more concerned about the backbreaking goals our goalies let in that should be stopped and are stopped 100% by the other side in big games. This all funnels through to giving the team confidence and energy in the game real time as well. I'm not so into stats that I do not recognize the ebbs and flows to a game, the big hit that changes momentum, the big save that pumps up your team, the big goal scored by the unlikely hero that puts you ahead.....and I also recognize the deflating backbreaking softie that kills your teams momentum. Thats what the Leafs experience almost every single big game. Tampa's whole success is built on 1-0 and 2-1 wins in big games. Never mind cups, how many rounds do they even win with the Andersen/Campbell in net the last 3 years?

...and the "half the cap thing" is pretty outdated considering covid destroying cap progression handcuffing the team (and all cap teams really, just more if your team just signed all their big contractss). This year should be 10 mil higher than it is now and there would be a ton more guys signed higher than them without covid. Could you imagine Nurse getting paid close to Marner? That would have happened IMO. If anything, the Leafs are lucky their high paid guys are worth their money compared to most teams. Stay healthy and make a big push this year if we can. Would be nice to be in the West though. I doubt any West team would want to face the murderers row in all 3 rounds you have to face in the East just to make it to the finals.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yup. There have been so many pointless arguments about all these subjective terms like #1G, #1D, franchise player, generational player etc. when the answer is always the same - it's subjective so it means whatever you want it to mean.

My only issue with this post is that I can't agree with only Gretzky, Orr, and Howe qualifying - if those guys qualify then Lemieux should also be included.

Sure you can add Lemieux and even Ovechkin if you want to go to five.

If you say three, does Mario push one of those out? And where do you fit Holl in?

Everyone is entitled to their own number, and we can debate endlessly who is #3 or #27 or #188. The only invalid response is "I'm right, you're wrong".

 

[ToneDog]

I had heard and said that Marner had 2 assists in 8 closeout games. I was not sure what those closeout game were so I went back and looked at the games where we could have closed out our opponent.

2018 Game #7 Boston 7 - Toronto 4

Marleau Gardiner, Nylander
Marleau Marner
Dermott Polak, Nylander
Kappanen

2019 Game #6 Boston 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Nylander, Marleau,
Matthews Gardiner, Dermott

2019 Game #7 Boston 5 - Toronto 1

Tavares Ennis

2020 Game #5 Columbus 2 - Toronto 0

2021 Game #5 Montreal 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Hyman Marner, Matthews
Muzzin Simmonds, Nylander
Muzzin Galchenyuk, Nylander

2021 Game #6 Montreal 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Spezza Kerfoot
Brodie Engvall

2021 Game #7 Montreal 3 - Toronto 1

Nylander Matthews, Spezza

2022 Game #6 Tampa 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Matthews Giordano, Nylander
Tavares Spezza, Kase
Tavares Nylander, Kerfoot

2022 Game #7 Tampa 2 - Toronto 1

Rielly Matthews, Marner

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm less concerned about the goals the goalies have no chance to stop and more concerned about the backbreaking goals our goalies let in that should be stopped and are stopped 100% by the other side in big games. This all funnels through to giving the team confidence and energy in the game real time as well. I'm not so into stats that I do not recognize the ebbs and flows to a game, the big hit that changes momentum, the big save that pumps up your team, the big goal scored by the unlikely hero that puts you ahead.....and I also recognize the deflating backbreaking softie that kills your teams momentum. Thats what the Leafs experience almost every single big game. Tampa's whole success is built on 1-0 and 2-1 wins in big games. Never mind cups, how many rounds do they even win with the Andersen/Campbell in net the last 3 years?

...and the "half the cap thing" is pretty outdated considering covid destroying cap progression handcuffing the team (and all cap teams really, just more if your team just signed all their big contractss). This year should be 10 mil higher than it is now and there would be a ton more guys signed higher than them without covid. Could you imagine Nurse getting paid close to Marner? That would have happened IMO. If anything, the Leafs are lucky their high paid guys are worth their money compared to most teams. Stay healthy and make a big push this year if we can. Would be nice to be in the West though. I doubt any West team would want to face the murderers row in all 3 rounds you have to face in the East just to make it to the finals.

There's plenty of blame to go around and all I'm saying is that when you score 2 goals in 3 games, the guys paid to score deserve a good chunk of the blame. You keep focusing on the goalies but does that really make sense when you compare what they get paid compared to what the big 4 get paid?

The "half the cap thing" isn't "outdated", it's a fact, it's what the big 4 get paid. I understand what covid did but it doesn't change the fact that these guys are paid a huge portion of the teams cap and they're expected to score. Or what, if the cap was 10 million higher and you changed "half the cap" to "44-45% of the cap", you'd be OK with these guys not being able score in the most important games that the team plays?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sure you can add Lemieux and even Ovechkin if you want to go to five.

If you say three, does Mario push one of those out? And where do you fit Holl in?

Everyone is entitled to their own number, and we can debate endlessly who is #3 or #27 or #188. The only invalid response is "I'm right, you're wrong".

My comment was made tongue in cheek but my sense is from reading these boards is that the vast majority of people agree on who the top 4 players are. You could start a discussion on the main boards on who the top three are but I suspect many people would say that it's a pointless argument because there's a clear top 4 so what's the point and if people did pick a top 3, you'd get nowhere near a consensus.

As of today, my #5 is Crosby and maybe one day it will be McDavid. Ovechkin's a bit too one-dimensional IMO.

 

[notDatsyuk]

My comment was made tongue in cheek but my sense is from reading these boards is that the vast majority of people agree on who the top 4 players are. You could start a discussion on the main boards on who the top three are but I suspect many people would say that it's a pointless argument because there's a clear top 4 so what's the point and if people did pick a top 3, you'd get nowhere near a consensus.

As of today, my #5 is Crosby and maybe one day it will be McDavid. Ovechkin's a bit too one-dimensional IMO.

Yes, although I find McDavid a bit one-dimensional too, although not as much as Ovi.

But intelligent debate rather than "he's an idiot because...".

 

[Dekes For Days]

For the record, "superstar" =/= the few best generational players in the history of the sport, and it's clearly not what was meant by the individual who was naming worse players than Marner as superstars either.

 

[therealkoho]

Exactly. That’s why I don’t understand why some here needs to constantly prove in this case, MM that he is better than anyone but McD in the league.
To me, win the Cup and that’s the player’s legacy.
Bc I would rather have the boys(Leafs) be one of the better players in the league and win multiple Cups for the Leafs than being the top players in the league with no playoffs success.
Even when Gretzky at his prime, he didn’t win every year in the playoffs but he did managed to win 4. Mario with 2. Lindros got zero.

I know what you're saying but having your name engraved on the SC while it takes a lot of personal effort it's ultimately the teams trophy!

you can add Marcel Dionne, and Dale Hawerchuk to that list of greats that didn't win it all, they both had remarkable careers, I don't see them as anything but winners, but not like a guy who's been on a team who went all the way

 

[Gary Nylund]

I know what you're saying but having your name engraved on the SC while it takes a lot of personal effort it's ultimately the teams trophy!

you can add Marcel Dionne, and Dale Hawerchuk to that list of greats that didn't win it all, they both had remarkable careers, I don't see them as anything but winners, but not like a guy who's been on a team who went all the way

Gilbert Perrault is another one. I don't hold the fact that these guys never played on teams good enough to win against them, they can't do anything about that. It's all about their individual performances when they do get the chance.

That said, this Leafs team is a bit different. You can't really say the team's not good enough to win, that's obviously not true and they keep getting to game 7 and when you do that, you can certainly win so after a while those game 7 losses start to smell really bad. Time to win for a change because it's getting to the point where the core guys who get paid the big bucks will have those losses stick to them forever.

 

[1specter]

I had heard and said that Marner had 2 assists in 8 closeout games. I was not sure what those closeout game were so I went back and looked at the games where we could have closed out our opponent.

2018 Game #7 Boston 7 - Toronto 4

Marleau Gardiner, Nylander
Marleau Marner
Dermott Polak, Nylander
Kappanen

2019 Game #6 Boston 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Nylander, Marleau,
Matthews Gardiner, Dermott

2019 Game #7 Boston 5 - Toronto 1

Tavares Ennis

2020 Game #5 Columbus 2 - Toronto 0

2021 Game #5 Montreal 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Hyman Marner, Matthews
Muzzin Simmonds, Nylander
Muzzin Galchenyuk, Nylander

2021 Game #6 Montreal 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Spezza Kerfoot
Brodie Engvall

2021 Game #7 Montreal 3 - Toronto 1

Nylander Matthews, Spezza

2022 Game #6 Tampa 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Matthews Giordano, Nylander
Tavares Spezza, Kase
Tavares Nylander, Kerfoot

2022 Game #7 Tampa 2 - Toronto 1

Rielly Matthews, Marner

I see a lot of Nylander in there. Exactly why I don't want big Willy to go anywhere else.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I see a lot of Nylander in there. Exactly why I don't want big Willy to go anywhere else.

At a glance, looks like Nylander has as many points as M&M both have between them. Interesting.

 

[ACC1224]

Just from memory alone in no order...

Aho
Barzal
Nylander
Stone
Strome
Pasta
Rantanen
Kucherov
Robertson
Matthews
Tavares
Kane
Hyman
Eichel
Zacha
Meier
Virtanen
and even...Soshnikov

Kid is not even 26 yet and judgement has been passed.

Just saw there is a thread in the Poll section where Mark Stone is beating Marner.

 

[Notsince67]

Just saw there is a thread in the Poll section where Mark Stone is beating Marner.

Solid player for sure but he is pretty fragile

 

[francis246]

I know what you're saying but having your name engraved on the SC while it takes a lot of personal effort it's ultimately the teams trophy!

you can add Marcel Dionne, and Dale Hawerchuk to that list of greats that didn't win it all, they both had remarkable careers, I don't see them as anything but winners, but not like a guy who's been on a team who went all the way

At the end of the day Marner is going to be remembered as a great. Same with Matthews, Nylander and Tavares. There are many players who retire without winning the cup. It will just be that they are appreciated later in their career for their efforts. The funniest part is all they have to do really is win a round and this narrative about them basically evaporates.