Tribute Marner Appreciation Thread

[Gary Nylund]

Ask and ye shall receive:

Marner vs. Pasta this season:

5v5:

Goals/60:
Marner: 0.81
Pasta: 1.58

Assists/60:
Marner: 2.07
Pasta: 1.35

Points/60:
Marner: 2.88
Pasta: 2.93

Shot differential:
Marner: 53.72
Pasta: 53.91

xGF%:
Marner: 55.02
Pasta: 53.53

Goal differential:
Marner: 61.71
Pasta: 66.13

Takeaways/60:
Marner: 4.03
Pasta: 2.38

Blocked Shots/60:
Marner: 1.61
Pasta: 1.18

Hits/60:
Marner: 2.65
Pasta: 4.23


PP:
Goals/60:
Marner: 1.83
Pasta: 3.65

Assists/60:
Marner: 5.95
Pasta: 3.43

Points/60:
Marner: 7.77
Pasta: 7.08

PK -
Marner: Excellent PKer on a good PK team.
Pasta: Does not PK

Overall

Marner:
Goals: 28
Points: 94

Pasta:
Goals: 51
Points: 97


...and yes, you are correct in that this is a much better comparison. Pasta is clearly the better goalscorer (which may be the most important stat of all) but also benefits from being on the team with the 4th most PPs in the league this season while Marner has playmaking, D numbers, overall PP production rate and the fact he PKs so well (and again at all compared to his peers here).

With all those goals, Pasta might be a dark horse I didn't see coming though but Marner still remains the insane complete player.

Kucherov is clearly behind both these guys IMO.

I wouldn't call Pasta a dark horse, he's getting plenty of attention this season and in the recent players/execs poll he was ranked ahead of Marner.

These two guys are close in any case and yes they're both having a better regular season than Kucherov, but the key word there is "regular" - we'll see what the playoffs bring.

Almost forgot - thanks for the numbers, you know me I don't put that much stock into numbers but still, that was interesting and yes, definitely much more interesting than comparing the numbers of Marner and Kucherov.

Kutch's numbers are as good as both Pasta and Marner and he has many more miles on him. 136 playoff games takes it's toll.

Kucherov's also 4 years older so not sure how much point there is comparing him to Marner. Players peak earlier than previously thought so basically Marner should now be at his absolute peak whereas Kucherov's best days are likely behind him. Kucherov's still very good obviously but he's probably not quite peak Kucherov any more.

Comparing these two can wait until both are done playing. Kucherov among his other accomplishments has won the Art Ross, The Hart and the Ted Lindsay awards, I'd be surprised if Marner ever won any of those but he definitely has a shot at the Conn Smythe, we'll see.

 

[Notsince67]

And don’t forget kyper said there was no spot for him on the leafs as hyman was better connor brown is better. Marner maybe could play on the fourth line.
To the marner haters anyone having a good season is better than marner

At times i wish he would be traded just to see the futility of the rest of this group.

People are allowed to be wrong from time to time.

Then there are others who believe their opinion should stand on the same legs as fact does when faced with overwhelming evidence. I suppose there is a right to be ignorant as well but there is equally a right to distain the truly obtuse ignoramuses.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Best RW in the league, other opinions are just plain wrong.

This on a Leafs forum

 

[Gary Nylund]

The knock on Marner is that his production has dropped off in the playoffs. Playoffs are much more important IMO than the regular season so these numbers are kind of relevant if you ask me.

Kucherov career PPG
Regular season 1.12
Playoffs 1.13

Marner career PPG
Regular season 1.10
Playoffs 0.82

The bolded needs to change. Marner has many years left to improve on this number but until that happens, any talk of him being the best winger in the game is premature. So far he's the perfect poster buy for this team - regular season wonders who can't get it done when it matters most.

 

[francis246]

The post above was just a few minutes ago, that didn't take long LOL. He's not one of the "yellers", he just has a habit of stating his opinions as if they're facts and some of his takes are ridiculous.

You're probably right that non Leaf fans don't understand how good he is but you could say the same for Leaf fans not understanding how good the top wingers on other teams are. Like in the recent player/exec poll, Pasta was voted the top winger, Marner was 4th. There's a reason so many people think Pasta is better than Marner but try telling that to the Marner fanboys here ...

Gilmour without the bite, I remember someone saying that and that's not a bad comparison.

Hasn’t Marner won first team RW in back to back years?

It’s not just Toronto Marner lovers who think he’s the best RW in the league but so do his peers and whoever else votes for that award. I’d say it’s between him and Pasta for the award this year. Pasta is a hell of a player but Marner is more complete. Can do a bit of everything. But obviously goal scoring is highly valued

 

[Notsince67]

Kutch's numbers are as good as both Pasta and Marner and he has many more miles on him. 136 playoff games takes it's toll.

146th on the all time list. Pulease.
Maybe you should examine the toll in the same year exacted from playing on the PK...oh yeah right

 

[ToneDog]

146th on the all time list. Pulease.
Maybe you should examine the toll in the same year exacted from playing on the PK...oh yeah right

Yeah, regular season PK minutes are so much tougher than the extra 100 playoff games Kutch has played. My point is not that Marner is not a great player, it is how much more should he be making than Pasta, Kutch and Tkachuk? Clearly you have some kind of personal connection with Marner. You seem to take posts personally and you seem to think some fans hate him which is not true in most cases.

 

[Notsince67]

Yeah, regular season PK minutes are so much tougher than the extra 100 playoff games Kutch has played. My point is not that Marner is not a great player, it is how much more should he be making than Pasta, Kutch and Tkachuk? Clearly you have some kind of personal connection with Marner. You seem to take posts personally and you seem to think some fans hate him which is not true in most cases.

So as a percent of all the hockey games he has ever played in his life, those games had an adverse affect on his future performance? 100 games>1000 regular games for example? Did only playing 47 regular season games last year help?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Hasn’t Marner won first team RW in back to back years?

It’s not just Toronto Marner lovers who think he’s the best RW in the league but so do his peers and whoever else votes for that award. I’d say it’s between him and Pasta for the award this year. Pasta is a hell of a player but Marner is more complete. Can do a bit of everything. But obviously goal scoring is highly valued

I think we both know the answer to that question, what's your point?

Yeah, regular season PK minutes are so much tougher than the extra 100 playoff games Kutch has played. My point is not that Marner is not a great player, it is how much more should he be making than Pasta, Kutch and Tkachuk? Clearly you have some kind of personal connection with Marner. You seem to take posts personally and you seem to think some fans hate him which is not true in most cases.

It's way past weird at this point.

 

[ToneDog]

So as a percent of all the hockey games he has ever played in his life, those games had an adverse affect on his future performance? 100 games>1000 regular games for example? Did only playing 47 regular season games last year help?

Yup and he put up 69 points (120 point pace) and he helped send Mitch to an early vacation.

 

[ToneDog]

I think we both know the answer to that question, what's your point?


It's way past weird at this point.

Yeah, when it comes to Mitch, I try to stay out of it but I got no grudge with him. When it comes to worth I ask the same questions about Matty and Nylander when I see numbers I do not agree with.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Total Points
(2020-2023, RW)

1. Marner - 258
2. Rantanen - 245
3. Pastrnak - 222
4. Kane - 211
5. Nylander - 203
6. Debrincat - 193
7. Keller - 178
7. Giroux - 178
7. Zuccarello - 178
10. Kucherov - 171

Points per game
(2020-2023, RW, 20+ GP)

1. Kucherov - 1.41
2. Marner - 1.29
3. Rantanen - 1.23
4. Pastrnak - 1.15
5. Kane - 1.06
6. Nylander - 0.99
7. Zuccarello - 0.97
8. Stone - 0.96
9. DeBrincat - 0.93
10. Keller - 0.90

5v5 Point per 60
(2020-2023, RW, 20+ GP, 12+ min/GP)

1. Marner - 3.14
2. Pastrnak - 2.69
3. Kucherov - 2.67
4. Stone - 2.62
5. Tarasenko - 2.49
6. Nylander - 2.37
7. Rantanen - 2.33
8. Tuch - 2.33
9. Keller - 2.29
10. Garland - 2.27

PP Points per 60
(2020-2023, RW, 20+ GP, 200+ PP min)

1. Kucherov - 9.16
2. Rantanen - 6.84
3. Marner - 6.66
4. Nylander - 6.48
5. Zuccarello - 6.29
6. Pastrnak - 6.22
7. Giroux - 5.92
8. Kane - 5.86
9. Toffoli - 5.77
10. Tarasenko - 5.65

PK Points per 60
(2020-2023, RW, 20+ GP, 200+ PK min)

1. Smith - 2.11
2. Atkinson - 1.85
3. Brown - 1.59
4. Marner - 1.57
5. Joseph - 1.47
6. Kempe - 1.41
7. Nichushkin - 1.38
8. Mikyehev - 1.34
9. Okposo - 1.33
10. O'Connor - 1.22

Kucherov, Pastrnak, Rantanen, and Nylander appear on 4 of those top-10 lists. The only person to appear on all 5 is Marner.

Nylander is below Marner on every list, so you can take him out. Pastrnak is below Marner on every list, so you can take him out.
Rantanen is below Marner on every list except for PP points per 60, where he is 0.18 PP points per 60 ahead. A gap more than made up by Marner elsewhere, so you can take him out.

We're down to Marner and Kucherov. Kucherov has shown to be unrivaled among RWs with the man advantage, but that's the only place he has on Marner.

So the best RW in the league question largely boils down to Kucherov vs. Marner, and which you prefer...

~37.5% better PP production
Vs.
~17.5% better 5v5 production
+Much better 5v5 defense
+Top tier PK production
+Top tier PK defense

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah, when it comes to Mitch, I try to stay out of it but I got no grudge with him. When it comes to worth I ask the same questions about Matty and Nylander when I see numbers I do not agree with.

Me too. Nothing wrong with asking questions and having an honest discussion. We don't have any perfect players on this team, not even Mitch Marner despite what some fanboys here would have you believe.

 

[notdoneyet]

People are allowed to be wrong from time to time.

Then there are others who believe their opinion should stand on the same legs as fact does when faced with overwhelming evidence. I suppose there is a right to be ignorant as well but there is equally a right to distain the truly obtuse ignoramuses.

The best of all is kypers last sentence

On most teams marner would be a top three player but on the leafs he will never be a top three lol

 

[Gary Nylund]

The best of all is kypers last sentence

On most teams marner would be a top three player but on the leafs he will never be a top three lol

What's "best" about that? I doubt there's a single person on this board who doesn't have Marner as one the two top players on the team and most people agree that he's been our best player this season. Considering that, seems like Kyper's so far out to lunch that he may as well stay there.

Edit:
I would add that on most teams, Marner would probably be the best player period, not just top three. Just more ridiculous nonsense from a talking head, nothing new here.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kucherov is 1

Marner is behind him for me

Honestly very tough forming a top 5 winger listing

Id say Kuch/Marner/Tkachuk/Pasta/Rantanen/Kaprizov/Robertson are all top 5 wing level players

The highest peak on that list is Kuch in both reg season and playoffs so I would have him 1st

After that it is super tight. Marner with a big playoffs would make him clearly ahead of rantanen/pasta imo

 

[francis246]

I think we both know the answer to that question, what's your point?


It's way past weird at this point.

My point is you keep going after Leafs fans who call him the best RW in the game as if that’s some far fetched statement. He has quite literally been voted the best RW in the game two years in a row.

And by a lot of metrics he’s either 1 or 2 for a lot of them. It’s not that far fetched. I think he’s the best Maple Leaf overall.

I’d like to see him really step in the playoffs but that’s about it. He’s been really consistent year in and year out since entering the league.

 

[Zybalto]

I wouldn't call Pasta a dark horse, he's getting plenty of attention this season and in the recent players/execs poll he was ranked ahead of Marner.

These two guys are close in any case and yes they're both having a better regular season than Kucherov, but the key word there is "regular" - we'll see what the playoffs bring.

Almost forgot - thanks for the numbers, you know me I don't put that much stock into numbers but still, that was interesting and yes, definitely much more interesting than comparing the numbers of Marner and Kucherov.

Both Marner and Pasta have identical oZone starts which helps.

One more quick stat, throwing in 5v5 relative teammate numbers for:

Shot Differential:
Marner: +0.88
Pasta: + 0.51

xGF%:
Marner: +1.24
Pasta: - 1.25

Goal Differential:
Marner: +7.48
Pasta: +1.03


I agree the goalscoring might be a difference maker for some out there and many might point to the Matthews over McDavid last season but this really is a different argument.


Kucherov vs. Marner in the playoffs is also interesting due to the fact Kucherov gets to play behind the best goalie in modern times and Marner got career big playoff game choker Andersen and Campbell. When you look back on it, the number of one goal games won by Vasy the last 3 years is incredible, especially the 1-0/2-1 type games in huge games.

Underlying stats the last 3 years in the playoffs (with REL):

Shot Differential:
Marner: 56.93 (+6.28)
Kucherov: 55.95 (+5.56)

xGF%:
Marner: 63.31 (+14.13)
Kucherov: 56.63 (+5.65)

Goal Differential:
Marner: 56.74 (+14.23)
Kucherov: 65.88 (+13.91)

You know my beef with the Leafs goaltending and bottom six production in the playoffs though....

 

[Gary Nylund]

My point is you keep going after Leafs fans who call him the best RW in the game as if that’s some far fetched statement. He has quite literally been voted the best RW in the game two years in a row.

And by a lot of metrics he’s either 1 or 2 for a lot of them. It’s not that far fetched. I think he’s the best Maple Leaf overall.

I’d like to see him really step in the playoffs but that’s about it. He’s been really consistent year in and year out since entering the league.

You understand that this vote is based on the regular season, right?

You understand that there are a some wingers who's have accomplished things in the playoffs that Marner hasn't, right?

You saw my earlier post showing that so far in his career, unlike his main comparables, Marner's production has dropped off quite a bit in the playoffs, right?

Did you see the recent player/exec poll where some had Marner as #1, but most didn't and overall he was 4th. What his NHL peers think carries at least a little bit of weight IMHO, what do you think? If they're not unanimously of the belief that Marner is "the best", why should we be?

Where do you get "far fetched from? I have no problem with people saying he's the best RW in the game, it's not an unreasonable POV but I do have problem with people who act as if it's 100% a fact that he's the best and ridicule anyone who dares to point out that it's not so clear. Opinions vary, that's perfectly natural and it's sad that a few posters have ruined the Marner threads by attacking and insulting anyone that doesn't agree that Marner is "the best".

 

[DarkKnight]

Imagine undercutting his two time first all star designation. Geezus.

 

[Gabriel426]

Marner vs. Kucherov this season:

5v5:

Goals/60:
Marner: 0.81
Kucherov: 0.70

Assists/60:
Marner: 2.07
Kucherov: 1.79

Points/60:
Marner: 2.88
Kucherov: 2.49

Shot differential:
Marner: 53.72
Kucherov: 52.38

xGF%:
Marner: 55.02
Kucherov: 55.33

Goal differential:
Marner: 61.71
Kucherov: 55.95

Takeaways/60:
Marner: 4.03
Kucherov: 2.38

Blocked Shots/60:
Marner: 1.61
Kucherov: 1.19

Hits/60:
Marner: 2.65
Kucherov: 2.49


PP:
Goals/60:
Marner: 1.83
Kucherov: 1.59

Assists/60:
Marner: 5.95
Kucherov: 7.16

Points/60:
Marner: 7.77
Kucherov: 8.75

PK -
Marner: Excellent PKer on a good PK team.
Kucherov: Does not PK

Overall

Marner:
Goals: 28
Points: 94

Kucherov:
Goals: 28
Points: 102

The fact Tampa has received almost 50 more PP opportunities (and the 2nd most in the NHL) than the Leafs certainly helps Kucherov pump up his overall numbers but the PP is the only thing really going for him in this comparison and only slightly. Marner is better defensively, a better 5v5 player, and is a great PKer. Really just a more complete player overall and should be the odds on favorite to win his 3rd straight RW title IMO.

Comparing Kuch with MM is a bit fruitless bc Kuch really hasn’t put up dominant regular season stats since 3 yrs ago. As he didn’t played a single regular season game two yrs ago and seem to take shifts and even games off in the regular season since last season except on the PP or whenever he felt like. While MM just had slow start.
BTW, I think MM is a better player than Kuch the last two seasons.

 

[ToneDog]

Imagine undercutting his two time first all star designation. Geezus.

Kuch has two firsts and a 2nd and Pasta has one first. All 3 are great RWers and 2 of the three will finish 1,2 this year.

 

[Gabriel426]

When it comes to RW or wingers in the league. Anyone could make a strong case as who is the best one in a group of MM, Drai, Kuch, Pastra, Tkachuk, Marchand and even Rantanen. Then you still have Robertson, Johnny Hockey, Panarin, Rantanen and Miller.
At the end it is really personal preference.
Personally, I think MM is the best of that bunch sofar this season.

 

[ToneDog]

Comparing Kuch with MM is a bit fruitless bc Kuch really hasn’t put up dominant regular season stats since 3 yrs ago. As he didn’t played a single regular season game two yrs ago and seem to take shifts and even games off in the regular season since last season except on the PP or whenever he felt like. While MM just had slow start.
BTW, I think MM is a better player than Kuch the last two seasons.

He is putting up dominant numbers this year and was on a 120 point pace last year. Had major hip surgery the year before that and went on to put up 32 points in the playoffs and lifted the SC. Mitch has 33 career playoff points. Picking between Mitch, Pasta and Kutch is like picking between a Blonde, Brunette and Red Headed Marilyn Monroe.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The knock on Marner is that his production has dropped off in the playoffs. Playoffs are much more important IMO than the regular season so these numbers are kind of relevant if you ask me.

Kucherov career PPG
Regular season 1.12
Playoffs 1.13

Marner career PPG
Regular season 1.10
Playoffs 0.82

The bolded needs to change. Marner has many years left to improve on this number but until that happens, any talk of him being the best winger in the game is premature. So far he's the perfect poster buy for this team - regular season wonders who can't get it done when it matters most.

Both Marner and Pasta have identical oZone starts which helps.

One more quick stat, throwing in 5v5 relative teammate numbers for:

Shot Differential:
Marner: +0.88
Pasta: + 0.51

xGF%:
Marner: +1.24
Pasta: - 1.25

Goal Differential:
Marner: +7.48
Pasta: +1.03


I agree the goalscoring might be a difference maker for some out there and many might point to the Matthews over McDavid last season but this really is a different argument.


Kucherov vs. Marner in the playoffs is also interesting due to the fact Kucherov gets to play behind the best goalie in modern times and Marner got career big playoff game choker Andersen and Campbell. When you look back on it, the number of one goal games won by Vasy the last 3 years is incredible, especially the 1-0/2-1 type games in huge games.

Underlying stats the last 3 years in the playoffs (with REL):

Shot Differential:
Marner: 56.93 (+6.28)
Kucherov: 55.95 (+5.56)

xGF%:
Marner: 63.31 (+14.13)
Kucherov: 56.63 (+5.65)

Goal Differential:
Marner: 56.74 (+14.23)
Kucherov: 65.88 (+13.91)

You know my beef with the Leafs goaltending and bottom six production in the playoffs though....

Advanced stats are interesting but at some point, you need to put the puck in the net. See my post above - I will add the numbers for Pasta.

Career PPG
Regular season 1.03
Playoffs 1.06

Marner's an amazing player and that's literally the only knock against him - playoff production has been substantially lower than in the regular season. Last spring was much better and I expect those number to keep improving as the years go by. But as long as his playoff production lags far behind some of the other wingers in the NHL, it's premature to call him the best. Best in the regular season over the last few years, sure I'd agree with that but best overall, for me playoff performance carries too much weight to say Marner is there just yet. Maybe a few months from now, we'll see.

Imagine undercutting his two time first all star designation. Geezus.

Nobody's undercutting anything, what's with the constant whining?

Playoff performance is a huge part of player assessment. If that hurts your feelings, there's not much I can do about it, sorry. Some people have opinions that aren't quite the same as yours, get over it.