Tribute Marner Appreciation Thread

[Gabriel426]

He is putting up dominant numbers this year and was on a 120 point pace last year. Had major hip surgery the year before that.

View attachment 677049

Not as dominant as before. He used to be the front runner for Hart and Art Ross.
PP is helping him quite a bit the last two yrs.
But I also think that Kuch is someone who is waiting for the playoffs since pre-season. I watched him play a few times live this year and he just picks his moments and sometimes he just seemed very disinterested.

 

[francis246]

Advanced stats are interesting but at some point, you need to put the puck in the net. See my post above - I will add the numbers for Pasta.

Career PPG
Regular season 1.03
Playoffs 1.06

Marner's an amazing player and that's literally the only knock against him - playoff production has been substantially lower than in the regular season. Last spring was much better and I expect those number to keep improving as the years go by. But as long as his playoff production lags far behind some of the other wingers in the NHL, it's premature to call him the best. Best in the regular season over the last few years, sure I'd agree with that but best overall, for me playoff performance carries too much weight to say Marner is there just yet. Maybe a few months from now, we'll see.


Nobody's undercutting anything, what's with the constant whining?

Playoff performance is a huge part of player assessment. If that hurts your feelings, there's not much I can do about it, sorry. Some people have opinions that aren't quite the same as yours, get over it.

The craziest part is playoff performance really isn't a huge factor in anything except for forum conversations and maybe depth players when deciding between a few depth players in UFA/trade deadline. Hell I can't remember the last player in the NHL to be traded because of a "lack of playoff success". Salaries in the NHL are paid out based on regular season production. Players rarely, if ever, get paid for post season success. There's also a hyper focus on it here in Toronto since as a organization in the last decade we've struggled in that area.

 

[ToneDog]

Not as dominant as before. He used to be the front runner for Hart and Art Ross.
PP is helping him quite a bit the last two yrs.
But I also think that Kuch is someone who is waiting for the playoffs since pre-season. I watched him play a few times live this year and he just picks his moments and sometimes he just seemed very disinterested.

Yup and it is why he gets benched. The regular season is too long. I can't blame any players for going through the motions a few nights. Mitch and McDavid are two who seldom do or are really good at disguising it.

 

[francis246]

Yup and it is why he gets benched. The regular season is too long. I can't blame any players for going through the motions a few nights. Mitch and McDavid are two who seldom do or are really good at disguising it.

it's too long or they need to go back to playing teams in series format like during covid, I think that at least brings some element of animosity between teams and gets them fired up. Or make some sort of reward for winning the Presidents Trophy.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The craziest part is playoff performance really isn't a huge factor in anything except for forum conversations and maybe depth players when deciding between a few depth players in UFA/trade deadline. Hell I can't remember the last player in the NHL to be traded because of a "lack of playoff success". Salaries in the NHL are paid out based on regular season production. Players rarely, if ever, get paid for post season success. There's also a hyper focus on it here in Toronto since as a organization in the last decade we've struggled in that area.

Boston traded Joe Thornton after he kept sucking in the playoffs. Not sure that was the reason but it seems likely.

I think for the most part, players that produce in the regular season also produce in the playoffs. Marner however had a few playoffs where his production dropped off so that's why his career numbers aren't that impressive. I'm sure they'll improve with time but for now, the simple fact is that his playoff numbers aren't great. If people want to say that doesn't matter that's fine. It's not a POV that I can agree with but everyone's entitled to their opinion.

 

[ToneDog]

it's too long or they need to go back to playing teams in series format like during covid, I think that at least brings some element of animosity between teams and gets them fired up. Or make some sort of reward for winning the Presidents Trophy.

The NHL needs to do something to make the regular season more interesting. I forgot about the series they played during COVID. Last night's game was so MEH. I prefer they shrunk the regular season and increased the number of playoff teams. There is a reason the first round of the NHL playoffs is the best in all sports. Also not a fan of hockey in June.

 

[francis246]

Boston traded Joe Thornton after he kept sucking in the playoffs. Not sure that was the reason but it seems likely.

I think for the most part, players that produce in the regular season also produce in the playoffs. Marner however had a few playoffs where his production dropped off so that's why his career numbers aren't that impressive. I'm sure they'll improve with time but for now, the simple fact is that his playoff numbers aren't great. If people want to say that doesn't matter that's fine. It's not a POV that I can agree with but everyone's entitled to their opinion.

To me it's not that his numbers don't matter, but his numbers are on par with Matthews and Nylander. Marner isn't a natural goal scorer, he's capable of scoring goals because he's creative. But to expect him to have these crazy goal totals is a fools race because that's not really his game anyways. He's usually the one creating offense for other players, so naturally his goal totals are going to be lower. I just think this fan base sometimes doesn't appreciate what he does bring and hyper focuses on things he doesn't. All three of Matthews, Nylander and Marner's playoff totals accurately represent the type of player they are. Marner is a pass first player so his assist totals will outweigh his goal totals heavily, Matthews and Nylander are natural goal scorers and should have more goals than Marner. Expecting anything different is just going to cause yourself to be disappointed.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When it comes to RW or wingers in the league. Anyone could make a strong case as who is the best one in a group of MM, Drai, Kuch, Pastra, Tkachuk, Marchand and even Rantanen. Then you still have Robertson, Johnny Hockey, Panarin, Rantanen and Miller.
At the end it is really personal preference.
Personally, I think MM is the best of that bunch sofar this season.

Totally agree, There's a top tier of wingers, Marner's there but he's far from alone there. Some people get all whiny when people say things like that but it seems pretty obvious to me

This season I'd say it's close between Pasta and Marner, too close to call.

Not as dominant as before. He used to be the front runner for Hart and Art Ross.
PP is helping him quite a bit the last two yrs.
But I also think that Kuch is someone who is waiting for the playoffs since pre-season. I watched him play a few times live this year and he just picks his moments and sometimes he just seemed very disinterested.

TB has played 12 playoff series over the last 3 years. If Kucherov and the rest of them started playing like champions again in these playoffs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

If I had to pick either Marner or Kucherov in a draft for these playoffs, I'd take Marner, he's the safe choice. I wouldn't be shocked if Kucherov outplayed him again though, it's definitely possible.

 

[Gabriel426]

The craziest part is playoff performance really isn't a huge factor in anything except for forum conversations and maybe depth players when deciding between a few depth players in UFA/trade deadline. Hell I can't remember the last player in the NHL to be traded because of a "lack of playoff success". Salaries in the NHL are paid out based on regular season production. Players rarely, if ever, get paid for post season success. There's also a hyper focus on it here in Toronto since as an organization in the last decade we've struggled in that area.

I think that’s also very few players that just excel in playoffs and is really below average in the regular season. We can point to Justin Williams and Claude Lemieux but those two are also pretty good option in the top 6 in the regular season.
Players do get paid for post seasonS success but not to the point of huge overpayment that couldn’t justify their regular season numbers.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yup and it is why he gets benched. The regular season is too long. I can't blame any players for going through the motions a few nights. Mitch and McDavid are two who seldom do or are really good at disguising it.

Exactly that. I don’t blame players for taking shifts or even games off as long as they are playing and performing when it matters. Really hope the NHL don’t get into the Load MGT crap bc that’s sucks.
The thing about disguising is really not that hard, just don’t show you give up on plays. I still remembered playing in the adult rugby league and guys-myself included, used to kept moving our arms a lot in order to let others think we were running hard and hustling, lol.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The NHL needs to do something to make the regular season more interesting. I forgot about the series they played during COVID. Last night's game was so MEH. I prefer they shrunk the regular season and increased the number of playoff teams. There is a reason the first round of the NHL playoffs is the best in all sports. Also not a fan of hockey in June.

Agree completely. They'll never shrink the season though so it is what it is. One thing they can do to make it more interesting is to change the playoff format to 1 vs 8, knowing since Jan 1 or WE that we're playing TB is boring as hell. let's hope they do it soon.

To me it's not that his numbers don't matter, but his numbers are on par with Matthews and Nylander. Marner isn't a natural goal scorer, he's capable of scoring goals because he's creative. But to expect him to have these crazy goal totals is a fools race because that's not really his game anyways. He's usually the one creating offense for other players, so naturally his goal totals are going to be lower. I just think this fan base sometimes doesn't appreciate what he does bring and hyper focuses on things he doesn't. All three of Matthews, Nylander and Marner's playoff totals accurately represent the type of player they are. Marner is a pass first player so his assist totals will outweigh his goal totals heavily, Matthews and Nylander are natural goal scorers and should have more goals than Marner. Expecting anything different is just going to cause yourself to be disappointed.

I don't expect Marner to score a ton of goals, I do expect him to produce at at least close to the same rate in the playoffs as he does in the regular season. There were a few years where he didn't manage that and we keep losing in game 7 so maybe another goal or two set up by him would have made the difference.

I appreciate every single thing Marner does, he's my favorite player to watch by far. I mentioned in another thread the head pass he did last night. Not sure anyone else even mentioned it but I sure as heck saw it and I've never seen anyone do that ever. Puck's in the air, and he makes a pass by bumping it with his helmet, who else in the league has the creativity to do that?

 

[Gabriel426]

Totally agree, There's a top tier of wingers, Marner's there but he's far from alone there. Some people get all whiny when people say things like that but it seems pretty obvious to me

This season I'd say it's close between Pasta and Marner, too close to call.

TB has played 12 playoff series over the last 3 years. If Kucherov and the rest of them started playing like champions again in these playoffs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

If I had to pick either Marner or Kucherov in a draft for these playoffs, I'd take Marner, he's the safe choice. I wouldn't be shocked if Kucherov outplayed him again though, it's definitely possible.

To me McD is clear cut best player in the league and there should not even be any argument about that.
For Dman, it is a toss up between Makar and Josi
For Goalies, Vas is clearly the best.
I would even say any teams and fans would choose these four over their own team top 4 or any combination of 4 others players in the league as their team top 4 players.

When it comes to playoffs, Kuch certainly got the edge over MM due to past playoffs history. Any other year, I will choose Kuch but this year, I will choose MM bc I just think the way Kuch approaches the game this season(taking shifts and even games off) will hurt him in the playoffs.

 

[authentic]

To me McD is clear cut best player in the league and there should not even be any argument about that.
For Dman, it is a toss up between Makar and Josi
For Goalies, Vas is clearly the best.
I would even say any teams and fans would choose these four over their own team top 4 or any combination of 4 others players in the league as their team top 4 players.

When it comes to playoffs, Kuch certainly got the edge over MM due to past playoffs history. Any other year, I will choose Kuch but this year, I will choose MM bc I just think the way Kuch approaches the game this season(taking shifts and even games off) will hurt him in the playoffs.

Marner was already better than Kucherov when they faced each other in the playoffs last year. Same amount of points except Marner wasn't a - player

 

[Stephen]

Not as dominant as before. He used to be the front runner for Hart and Art Ross.
PP is helping him quite a bit the last two yrs.
But I also think that Kuch is someone who is waiting for the playoffs since pre-season. I watched him play a few times live this year and he just picks his moments and sometimes he just seemed very disinterested.

Kucherov has 102 points this year, so while not 128 points dominant, that's still peak effectiveness as far as I'm concerned.

He's a guy that needs to be focused on with physicality. A healthy dose of Jake McCabe standing him up in the neutral zone, Luke Schenn rubbing him out heavy on the sidewall and maybe a ROR shadow will be good weapons to use to frustrate him and get him off his game and put the wear and tear on. The guy is a pissy baby. You want him angry in a bad way.

 

[Stephen]

Marner was already better than Kucherov when they faced each other in the playoffs last year. Same amount of points except Marner wasn't a - player

Marner's continued to grow and do a lot of excellent work on defense and the two way game, but I don't think he's quite at the assassin level Kucherov has been on his three finals runs. Let Marner sink a few daggers into the hearts of opposing teams late in playoff games, late in series. That's the next step for him.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Kucherov has 102 points this year, so while not 128 points dominant, that's still peak effectiveness as far as I'm concerned.

He's a guy that needs to be focused on with physicality. A healthy dose of Jake McCabe standing him up in the neutral zone, Luke Schenn rubbing him out heavy on the sidewall and maybe a ROR shadow will be good weapons to use to frustrate him and get him off his game and put the wear and tear on. The guy is a pissy baby. You want him angry in a bad way.

Yeah the problem is he is also dirty just hope he doesn't take out one of our stars when he looses it

 

[Stephen]

Yeah the problem is he is also dirty just hope he doesn't take out one of our stars when he looses it

If that happened, I would hope the retaliation would be massive.

 

[authentic]

Marner's continued to grow and do a lot of excellent work on defense and the two way game, but I don't think he's quite at the assassin level Kucherov has been on his three finals runs. Let Marner sink a few daggers into the hearts of opposing teams late in playoff games, late in series. That's the next step for him.

Very True. He definitely has it in him.

Yeah the problem is he is also dirty just hope he doesn't take out one of our stars when he looses it

We play them the 2nd last game of the season. I would be okay with our big guns sitting that one out.

 

[Gabriel426]

Kucherov has 102 points this year, so while not 128 points dominant, that's still peak effectiveness as far as I'm concerned.

He's a guy that needs to be focused on with physicality. A healthy dose of Jake McCabe standing him up in the neutral zone, Luke Schenn rubbing him out heavy on the sidewall and maybe a ROR shadow will be good weapons to use to frustrate him and get him off his game and put the wear and tear on. The guy is a pissy baby. You want him angry in a bad way.

To me, something is off with Kuch since last year. It could be the injuries or just lack of motivations.
I know he is putting up points this season but it is more a product of his linemates than him driving the line. Kind of like Drai, still today, I am still unsure if he is as talented as he has shown with his stats or is a product of McD.

 

[Gabriel426]

Marner's continued to grow and do a lot of excellent work on defense and the two way game, but I don't think he's quite at the assassin level Kucherov has been on his three finals runs. Let Marner sink a few daggers into the hearts of opposing teams late in playoff games, late in series. That's the next step for him.

I think that’s something the boys, not just MM needs to learn and it can only happens with longer than 7 games in the playoffs.
That clutch or Champions DNA factor will only come when the players and the team go far in the playoffs.
Ovie could score all the goals and points in playoffs but he didn’t do it till he won the Cup. Same with Mack and Makar. EK done it once with the Sharks. Toews, Kane, Kopitar and Doughty all done it.
That’s also why I was saying Kane should be No.1 priority for the Leafs since Oct(ROR was not view as available) bc Kane lives for those clutch moments and had done it in the past.

 

[Gary Nylund]

To me, something is off with Kuch since last year. It could be the injuries or just lack of motivations.
I know he is putting up points this season but it is more a product of his linemates than him driving the line. Kind of like Drai, still today, I am still unsure if he is as talented as he has shown with his stats or is a product of McD.

I find it hard to believe that he's being carried by his linemates. It seems to me that he's still a force on offence, but the underlying numbers show that his defence hasn't been great this season. But I'd bet a lot that as soon as the playoffs start, he'll be playing D like a champ again. After all it's not like he's forgotten how to play defence, he probably just views the season as the 82 game warmup that it is until the real games start.

For champions like Kucherov, the playoffs are what really counts and passing judgement on what he is or isn't based on the fact that he hasn't put in the effort on D this season isn't a good idea.

 

[ACC1224]

We play them the 2nd last game of the season. I would be okay with our big guns sitting that one out.

God no. They want to set the tone and let Tampa know what’s coming.

 

[Zybalto]

Marner's continued to grow and do a lot of excellent work on defense and the two way game, but I don't think he's quite at the assassin level Kucherov has been on his three finals runs. Let Marner sink a few daggers into the hearts of opposing teams late in playoff games, late in series. That's the next step for him.

Marner has only played 12 playoff elimination (someone might be going home) games and his stats:

1 goal and 8 points in those 12 games.

Guess how many points Kucherov has in his last 17 playoff elimination games?

 

[Gabriel426]

I find it hard to believe that he's being carried by his linemates. It seems to me that he's still a force on offence, but the underlying numbers show that his defence hasn't been great this season. But I'd bet a lot that as soon as the playoffs start, he'll be playing D like a champ again. After all it's not like he's forgotten how to play defence, he probably just views the season as the 82 game warmup that it is until the real games start.

For champions like Kucherov, the playoffs are what really counts and passing judgement on what he is or isn't based on the fact that he hasn't put in the effort on D this season isn't a good idea.

Maybe carrying is not the proper word, the term I am looking for is picking moments.
I don’t watch TB like I do with the Leafs. To me it seemed like Kuch just picks his spots to be visible in the right way. And sometime it worked sometimes it’s backfired. He is getting a pass bc of what he done in the past. He is getting points but just the way he used to.

 

[Stephen]

Marner has only played 12 playoff elimination (someone might be going home) games and his stats:

1 goal and 8 points in those 12 games.

Guess how many points Kucherov has in his last 17 playoff elimination games?

Nikita Kucherov has 154 career points in the playoffs and still in his 20s. His playoff career points total is more than other superstar cup winning wingers like Ovechkin, Lafleur, Kane, and only 6 behind Mike Bossy, so let's just pump the brakes on nitpicking Kucherov.

Let's beat Tampa, have our own success and then we can big up all our guys once they've earned it.