Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[arttk]

Edmonton survived just fine selling a tank. Toronto i'll say is an outlier.

The thing is, the Canucks already were selling a shitty product, unintentionally, and still got the gate revenue these last 8 years. So I refuse to believe this market can't accept a rebuild. This kind of finish would make rebuilders like Columbus and Chicago pat themselves on the back, except they'd be stocked up with extra 1st and 2nds.

View attachment 747663

We had the pain of a rebuild, without the draft capital to show for it. Still can't believe ownership saw McDavid, Mathews, Bedard down the line and thought they should aim for 4 games of playoffs.

I agree with you that right now, it doesn't make sense to go into that cycle again, at least without seeing what this core can accomplish, but personally my threshold for pressing the 'nuke it from orbit' button is very low for this core.



Benning's kicked the can down the road for 8 years, the best time to accept a rebuild was then, the second best time is now. I mean we are committed to this path now, but we're simply too far behind in the deficit of depth and draft capital compared to our competition, and the Pacific is waking up now.

I get the reasoning behind that. Better to bite the bullet on the can that's been kicked down the road now for 8 years than accept it 5 years down the line when the experiment with this core tops out at a 2nd round exit.

Likewise, to win a cup with this team, we'll need consecutive 'high way robbery' trade wins and Kuzmenko level free agents to be relevant again. At the moment that feels like a lower odds than a top 5 pick panning out.

Vancouver is not Edmonton, we got shit to do.
I think the bigger damage is fan interest. I imagine there are less younger hardcore Canucks fans.

 

[arttk]

Edmonton survived just fine selling a tank. Toronto i'll say is an outlier.

The thing is, the Canucks already were selling a shitty product, unintentionally, and still got the gate revenue these last 8 years. So I refuse to believe this market can't accept a rebuild. This kind of finish would make rebuilders like Columbus and Chicago pat themselves on the back, except they'd be stocked up with extra 1st and 2nds.

View attachment 747663

We had the pain of a rebuild, without the draft capital to show for it. Still can't believe ownership saw McDavid, Mathews, Bedard down the line and thought they should aim for 4 games of playoffs.

I agree with you that right now, it doesn't make sense to go into that cycle again, at least without seeing what this core can accomplish, but personally my threshold for pressing the 'nuke it from orbit' button is very low for this core.



Benning's kicked the can down the road for 8 years, the best time to accept a rebuild was then, the second best time is now. I mean we are committed to this path now, but we're simply too far behind in the deficit of depth and draft capital compared to our competition, and the Pacific is waking up now.

I get the reasoning behind that. Better to bite the bullet on the can that's been kicked down the road now for 8 years than accept it 5 years down the line when the experiment with this core tops out at a 2nd round exit.

Likewise, to win a cup with this team, we'll need consecutive 'high way robbery' trade wins and Kuzmenko level free agents to be relevant again. At the moment that feels like a lower odds than a top 5 pick panning out.

The only reason you guys feel this is a good time for a rebuild is because Benning blue balled us by refusing to do it and this is just pure frustration from Benning taking us to the shitters and not getting us the full benefit of having been there.

The best time to tank is when there is no choice but to. The problem that we face is lack of depth. You don’t f***ing tank for depth, that’s stupid.

 

[DS7]

Vancouver is not Edmonton, we got shit to do.
I think the bigger damage is fan interest. I imagine there are less younger hardcore Canucks fans.

Edmonton is a smaller market than Vancouver and they survived ten years of hell is my point. It wasn't until the last two years when McDrai broke out that their franchise exceeded ours in valuation.

So, I think the damage from the Benning era has been done, there's barely any meat on the bone now and apathy is already setting in.

Fan interest comes and goes, you saw how fast Edmonton generated fan interest when McDavid laced up the skates.

 

[arttk]

Edmonton is a smaller market than Vancouver and they survived ten years of hell is my point. It wasn't until the last two years when McDrai broke out that their franchise exceeded ours in valuation.

So, I think the damage from the Benning era has been done, there's barely any meat on the bone now and apathy is already setting in.

Fan interest comes and goes, you saw how fast Edmonton generated fan interest when McDavid laced up the skates.

You are suggesting another rebuild so it could be another 10 years on top of the 10 years we have been in already. 20>10 years

 

[DS7]

The only reason you guys feel this is a good time for a rebuild is because Benning blue balled us by refusing to do it and this is just pure frustration from Benning taking us to the shitters and not getting us the full benefit of having been there.

Nah, I don't want to rebuild now, but this core has 1-2 years to show it is something.

The other reason people want to rebuild is because this franken-tool is shaping up to make us the 2000s Minnesota wild. Too good to tank, too bad to succeed in playoffs.

There is a chance that one of the range of outcomes in your scenario of competing now is 20 years of irrelevance as a capped out mid team, because the hole Benning dug is too deep to climb out of AND compete at the same time.

That's why to some, it's better to have 5-10 years of pain now, as opposed to 10-15 years of floating in mediocrity like the Wild did and having that 5-10 years pain further down the line in the 2040s.

I do acknowledge of lot of it is frustration on Benning/Aquilini blue balling us on a rebuild, that's why I'm fine to see what we have with this team for a few seasons. There is no McDavid/Mathews/Bedard on the horizon to save us.

 

[DS7]

You are suggesting another rebuild so it could be another 10 years on top of the 10 years we have been in already. 20>10 years

2014-2021 is gone, that is a sunk cost and should not influence in the slightest what the team does going forward.

The counter begins today.

And quite frankly the question you got to ask is, Are Petey/Hughes/Demko With this Dcore, With J.T, Kuzmenko etc..., a two year 4.7M dead cap handicap on the horizon from OEL, and this prospect farm enough to win a cup?

If the answer is yes, then go for it. rebuilding now doesn't make sense

If the answer is no, then rebuild while you still have value. Don't repeat Benning's mistake.

And i'm willing to have a few seasons to evaluate.

 

[oceanchild]

Edmonton and Buffalo had 10 and 12 years of failure to get to where they are now (and Buffalo is still trying to get back into the playoffs) I don't think they're good examples of how to do anything.

We have 11 years and are not even close to those two. I would eat 4 more years of crap to be in Buffaloes position, but we refuse so here we are. You’re advocating doubling down, others are saying the pain won’t stop until it’s done right.

This is an agree to disagree situation.

 

[arttk]

Nah, I don't want to rebuild now, but this core has 1-2 years to show it is something.

The other reason people want to rebuild is because this franken-tool is shaping up to make us the 2000s Minnesota wild. Too good to tank, too bad to succeed in playoffs.

There is a chance that one of the range of outcomes in your scenario of competing now is 20 years of irrelevance as a capped out mid team.

That's why to some, it's better to have 5-10 years of pain now, as opposed to 10-15 years of floating in mediocrity like the Wild did and having that 5-10 years pain further down the line in the 2040s.

Minny never had a core with a franchise 1C. The problem they had was they lack elite talent. We don’t share the same problem. We have a 100 pt center, ppg defender, ppg 2C. Yes we need more but that’s a different problem than Minny. At least get the right comparable.
You guys claim to have patience but you don’t. Like you guys are not patient enough to see this management figure out how to get another 1W, another top4D and like 2 more top 6 forwards and because we don’t have them right this very moment we should just nuke it all. It makes no f***ing sense.

2014-2021 is gone, that is a sunk cost and should not influence in the slightest what the team does going forward.

The counter begins today.

And quite frankly the question you got to ask is, Are Petey/Hughes/Demko With this Dcore, With J.T, Kuzmenko etc..., a two year 4.7M dead cap handicap on the horizon from OEL, and this prospect farm enough to win a cup?

If the answer is yes, then go for it. rebuilding now doesn't make sense

If the answer is no, then rebuild while you still have value. Don't repeat Benning's mistake.

And i'm willing to have a few seasons to evaluate.

Sunk cost doesn’t change the fact you have already piss away the interest of a generation for 10 years. Continuing to compound on that just makes it even worse. You can’t say sunk cost and tada that lost fan interest isn’t lost.
You’ll just lose more

 

[arttk]

We have 11 years and are not even close to those two. I would eat 4 more years of crap to be in Buffaloes position, but we refuse so here we are. You’re advocating doubling down, others are saying the pain won’t stop until it’s done right.

This is an agree to disagree situation.

Once again, saying another 4 more years is a false flag. If you throw away Petey and Hughes and co, it’s not going to be just another 4 years. On top of that there is no guarantee that you’ll get the right players even if you do it “right”.
Would you be happy if you throw everything away and end up like Detroit after another rebuild?

 

[credulous]

The best time to tank is when there is no choice but to. The problem that we face is lack of depth. You don’t f***ing tank for depth, that’s stupid.

you understand people disagree with the bolded right? i think depth is easy to fix and it's only because benning was so bad at it that we think it's hard. the real problem with this roster is they are lacking impact players at key positions

they need a third line center that can compare with phillip danault, nick roy/chandler stephenson, ross colton, wyatt johnson, erik haula, filip chytil, anton lundell, nick paul and john tavares/william nylander/david kampf. that's what contenders are putting out in that spot

they need either a top line winger to replace boeser or pdg or they need a quality second line center so that miller can be that winger

they need a top shutdown defender who can play big minutes in addition to hughes. that's not any of hronek, cole or soucy

they probably need another top three minute defender as well depending on how well cole holds up

these aren't depth roles. these are the most important spots on the team past pettersson, hughes and demko

 

[oceanchild]

Once again, saying another 4 more years is a false flag. If you throw away Petey and Hughes and co, it’s not going to be just another 4 years. On top of that there is no guarantee that you’ll get the right players even if you do it “right”.
Would you be happy if you throw everything away and end up like Detroit after another rebuild?

The 4 years isn’t my number, nor am I advocating for this, but if you traded Miller, Pettersson and Demko and could convince Hughes to stay and took on short term poor contracts. I think this team could and would be fine in 4 years. I agree that teams like the rangers and kings short formed the rebuild from the scorched earth and bad for a decade approach by trading players with value. What if it takes 6 years instead of 4…. I mean it’s probably the faster way.

I can only speak for me, but I’m 43 and have been watching this team since I can remember. Bure, 1994, Westcoast express, this great Sedin lead teams… all I want to to win… having this team be marginal for a couple more years until Pettersson or Hughes decide to leave and Miller is a marginal second liner with a cap hit that hurts is less attractive to me then playing the long game and trying to win.

 

[rypper]

I think it'll take a ton of luck and a lot more then 4 years to fill all those holes and the spots that need to be replaced if you're trading Pettersson Hughes Demko etc.

I understand the point of view. I'd rather give this core the opportunity to go for it. If it doesn't work we're rebuilding anyway.

I imagine some of those holes can be filled through future trades and free agency if we continue the path we're on.

 

[DS7]

Minny never had a core with a franchise 1C. The problem they had was they lack elite talent. We don’t share the same problem. We have a 100 pt center, ppg defender, ppg 2C. Yes we need more but that’s a different problem than Minny. At least get the right comparable.

We have all this, and are projected to finish in the Bubble, we finished bottom half of the league with this in place since 2020. Different Problem. Same Result.

You guys claim to have patience but you don’t. Like you guys are not patient enough to see this management figure out how to get another 1W, another top4D and like 2 more top 6 forwards and because we don’t have them right this very moment we should just nuke it all. It makes no f***ing sense.

I want to reiterate. I agree with your point right. it doesn't make sense to rebuild now.

What part of 'willing to wait a few seasons' to see how this goes is impatient? I guess I did throw 1-2 seasons out as my threshold. But that's if we have another disaster repeat of the last two years (bottom 10 by January, claw back up to 15th by March)

How many more seasons should we miss hypothetically (not saying it happens) before you say pull the plug and rebuild?

Sunk cost doesn’t change the fact you have already piss away the interest of a generation for 10 years. Continuing to compound on that just makes it even worse. You can’t say sunk cost and tada that lost fan interest isn’t lost.
You’ll just lose more

This feels like the tail wagging the dog situation. I think you're reactionary like that, you end up with the Benning years.

It may feel counter intuitive, but fan interest comes when you do the right things. Our market can see that. All that gigantic fan interest and goodwill from the Sedin years? Benning already pissed it away. You have the core of the market now, and they understand the cycles.

I think we can agree to disagree on the state of the market here.

Right now there is a plan. And it's fine as long as it is executed well.

Now if you're goal is to make the Vancouver Canucks an entertaining product like the Minnesota Vikings. Then I'll agree with you. Never even try to rebuild.

Yes we need more but that’s a different problem than Minny. At least get the right comparable.

Then by this metric we shouldn't be using the STL as an example of a non rebuild cup winner. Look at how many solid depth players they've developed out of their late 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds in their drafts. lightyears difference from us.

I think we are bottom 3 in the league in development, with MTL and NYR

 

[arttk]

you understand people disagree with the bolded right? i think depth is easy to fix and it's only because benning was so bad at it that we think it's hard. the real problem with this roster is they are lacking impact players at key positions

they need a third line center that can compare with phillip danault, nick roy/chandler stephenson, ross colton, wyatt johnson, erik haula, filip chytil, anton lundell, nick paul and john tavares/william nylander/david kampf. that's what contenders are putting out in that spot

they need either a top line winger to replace boeser or pdg or they need a quality second line center so that miller can be that winger

they need a top shutdown defender who can play big minutes in addition to hughes. that's not any of hronek, cole or soucy

they probably need another top three minute defender as well depending on how well cole holds up

these aren't depth roles. these are the most important spots on the team past pettersson, hughes and demko

So you say our issue is not depth and you list off all things that are typically considered to be depth issues.
Getting a 3C is not this Herculean task, the fact that a bunch of guys you listed are signed as FA or traded for little value proves that. Nevermind you included Chytil as an example. If we have a ES only center that plays zero pk min right now we’ll be so f***ed it’s not even funny. Also laughing at the idea of saying Nylandee is a 3C.

We have a shutdown guy, he’s Hronek. Maybe if you aren’t the only guy that sees him play like Myers you would see that. But yes we need another defender and guess what you can trade or sign that piece. You don’t need to tank for that.

Yes we need another top line winger, but guess what, we got 2 for free last season in Kuz and Milo, why the f*** do you guys make it seem like it’s simply impossible to get 1 more and we just need to really f***ing tank to get that?

Like none of the pieces you mention needs to be tanked for. Hell if you guys are actually f***ing patient enough, we might actually see those pieces come through in Willander and Lekkerimaki and Raty.

But of course you guys are like no, we need to f***ing tank now because we don’t have a 3rd line center, a 3rd defender after Hronek and another top winger.

 

[HairyKneel]

Edmonton and Buffalo are actually examples of my point. No matter how badly managed a team is: the league won’t let them fail. Edmonton is a contender and Buffalo is an up and comer with a roster full of top ten picks.

Do you buy tickets for games?

 

[arttk]

We have all this, and are projected to finish in the Bubble, we finished bottom half of the league with this in place since 2020. Different Problem. Same Result.

Cause our depth sucks

What part of 'willing to wait a few seasons' to see how this goes is impatient? I guess I did throw 1-2 seasons out as my threshold. But that's if we have another disaster repeat of the last two years (bottom 10 by January, claw back up to 15th by March)

How many more seasons should we miss hypothetically (not saying it happens) before you say pull the plug and rebuild?

It depends, if Petey won’t extend then right away.
If Petey extends then it really depends on what is the reason for us not improving.
It’s really hard to fault Petey or Hugues if they are putting up 100pt/ppg performance respectively and crushing it every time they are on the ice. Like what else do you expect them to do?

I think you have to look at it from a perspective of, what do we need to improve on. You only rebuild if there if your foundation is f***ed, like if Petey and Hughes get caved every time they step on the ice then yeah you have to rebuild.

Then by this metric we shouldn't be using the STL as an example of a non rebuild cup winner. Look at how many solid depth players they've developed out of their late 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds in their drafts. lightyears difference from us.

I think we are bottom 3 in the league in development, with MTL and NYR

Benning was bottom 3 in development. We have to see how this management group does.

 

[4th line culture]

If you look at their draft history, Eichel was year 3 of drafting in the top10. The year after Eichel they had like 10 draft picks so it wasn’t like they were like we are done after 3 years.
Even if you look at year 5,6,7, they had their 1st and multiple 2nds.
the only time they have a real draft deficit was in 2020, 8 years into their rebuild. Are you guys suggesting that trying to get out of a rebuild in year f***ing 8 is way too soon?

Is a draft deficit the only indicator of being out of a rebuild?

 

[arttk]

Is a draft deficit the only indicator of being out of a rebuild?

If a team saids they are done with a rebuild and proceed to finish bottom 10, are they really out of a rebuild?

I guess I misread. I think draft deficit + years into a rebuild shows that they tried to get out. Like year 8 into a rebuild and you see them trading away picks as a sign of uhh they probably bad enough sucking.

 

[MarkMM]

you understand people disagree with the bolded right? i think depth is easy to fix and it's only because benning was so bad at it that we think it's hard. the real problem with this roster is they are lacking impact players at key positions

they need a third line center that can compare with phillip danault, nick roy/chandler stephenson, ross colton, wyatt johnson, erik haula, filip chytil, anton lundell, nick paul and john tavares/william nylander/david kampf. that's what contenders are putting out in that spot

they need either a top line winger to replace boeser or pdg or they need a quality second line center so that miller can be that winger

they need a top shutdown defender who can play big minutes in addition to hughes. that's not any of hronek, cole or soucy

they probably need another top three minute defender as well depending on how well cole holds up

these aren't depth roles. these are the most important spots on the team past pettersson, hughes and demko

There's a chance that the 3C can be Raty, the top line winger can be Lekkerimaki and the shut down defenceman can be Willander. There's a pathway to being a contender that needs a lot to go right (Podkolzin and Hoglander need to step it up), not impossible, not likely, but enough that an argument can be made either way so I preferred a rebuild but willing to see how this plays out.

 

[Paulinbc]

Did we not have room for Ty Smith after losing Spencer Martin to waivers? I thought he might be a great Bilo Canada for us.

 

[Vector]

Did we not have room for Ty Smith after losing Spencer Martin to waivers? I thought he might be a great Bilo Canada for us.

Not stylistically. He's another small left-handed offense-first defenceman.

 

[credulous]

There's a chance that the 3C can be Raty, the top line winger can be Lekkerimaki and the shut down defenceman can be Willander. There's a pathway to being a contender that needs a lot to go right (Podkolzin and Hoglander need to step it up), not impossible, not likely, but enough that an argument can be made either way so I preferred a rebuild but willing to see how this plays out.

that's like 2-3 years off, at least. you're dreaming if you think pettersson, hughes, miller, kuzmenko, hronek, demko and whoever else you consider the "core" will be the same quality then

even if that's what you're banking on, they should have made moves that targeted that window instead of trying to compete last year and trying again this year. run below the cap so you can be opportunistic on players like bjorkstrand and marino when they come available. don't trade picks to make cap space a la dickinson and pearson. don't waste picks on maybes like dermott. aggressively shop players who don't factor into the long term like garland and beauvillier. optimize so you peak at the right time

it's this middle path where they make some win now moves while waiting on question marks like raty, lekkerimaki and willander to be really competitive that kills this team over and over. you can't win in the nhl by getting incrementally better

 

[arttk]

that's like 2-3 years off, at least. you're dreaming if you think pettersson, hughes, miller, kuzmenko, hronek, demko and whoever else you consider the "core" will be the same quality then

even if that's what you're banking on, they should have made moves that targeted that window instead of trying to compete last year and trying again this year. run below the cap so you can be opportunistic on players like bjorkstrand and marino when they come available. don't trade picks to make cap space a la dickinson and pearson. don't waste picks on maybes like dermott. aggressively shop players who don't factor into the long term like garland and beauvillier. optimize so you peak at the right time

it's this middle path where they make some win now moves while waiting on question marks like raty, lekkerimaki and willander to be really competitive that kills this team over and over. you can't win in the nhl by getting incrementally better

Petey is 24
Hughes is 23,
Hronek is 25
Kuz is 27
Miller is 30

The only one that might decline in 2-3 years is Miller and also you are making the bold assumption that we add nobody to the core in 2-3 years outside of waiting for Raty, Willander and Lekkerimaki to make the roster.

No wonder you can’t imagine how the team can get better.

 

[valkynax]

Petey is 24
Hughes is 23,
Hronek is 25
Kuz is 27
Miller is 30

The only one that might decline in 2-3 years is Miller and also you are making the bold assumption that we add nobody to the core in 2-3 years outside of waiting for Raty, Willander and Lekkerimaki to make the roster.

No wonder you can’t imagine how the team can get better.

Side note, cap space is projected to go up by quite a bit, will that be enough for us to keep Kuzmenko?

 

[Bubbles]

If we do a rebuild, the primary objective is always going to be draft a 1C, 1D and 1W and get more depth.
Like we have a 1C, 1D and 1W already. Why the f*** do we want to spend 4-10 years and redo that all over again? Are you saying it’s that hard to get another 1W, 2C and a couple of top 6 wingers and top4 guys that we have to rebuild to get it?

Like the whole idea of we’ll do a rebuild for 5 and then we’ll compete for 5 is so widely unrealistic it’s crazy. Like what happens if we end up drafting a LaF and Kakko? Does the timeline now move another year or two? What happens if we end up like Detroit and never get an elite talent? Just infinite rebuild?
Like are the odds of getting another 2C, 1W and like another top4 guy so f***ing low that we might as well just go through 5+ of absolute shit?

Why is there fear that you can't get those players via a tank/rebuild? It's not hard at all to get those type of players.

I don't see how it's unrealistic when many, many NHL teams have done it. New Jersey is a perfect example where they tanked for 6 years and boom, they are a playoff team in the 7th year and they have a solid core all signed on great contracts. Ottawa has a 1C, 1D and 1W and they are just coming out of their tank now. I expect a NJ-esque rise this year.

this is a gate driven league, purposely selling a shitty product when your sports team is like 3rd or 4th on the list is like f***ing suicide. That’s why most teams won’t do it. You don’t want to go through like at worst 10 years of suck age and lose a generation of fans. Look at Detroit.

Of course things are different in Canada where hockey is number 1 but even then at some point you are hurting the business. Canucks were horribly run and I imagine they have lost a generation of fans through this Benning cycle. I talk to folks and they don’t give a f*** about the Canucks and honestly I have no clue how the younger fans feel.

I really don't understand the correlation between getting people in seats and not having a rebuild. Did Toronto or Montreal have financial troubles when they decided to tank? Did Ottawa, the 2nd smallest Canadian market, suffer too much when they decided to tank and rebuild?

For some reason, people here think that the Vancouver market can't withstand a full rebuild. But Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal can because....reasons?