Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[credulous]

the sabres and oilers are both examples of teams that got impatient with rebuilding/retooling and made a bunch of stupid moves to "support their young core" that ended up setting them back

 

[arttk]

That's because most Canucks fans are impatient as hell and only pay attention when the season comes around.

The Canucks have never rebuilt at all. Logically speaking, the time to actually properly rebuild was when the Sedins retired in 2018. Given that timeline, the Canucks would be in year 5 of the rebuild and just coming out of it. But we all know that didn't happen.

The Devils took 6 years BTW (Hischier drafted in 2017) And before that they were just middling around trying to make the playoffs with a subpar roster (hmmm, doesn't that ring a bell)

The Blackhawks are in year 2 of their rebuild and the Sharks just embarked on theirs. The Senators are coming out of their rebuild as well.

Don’t project Benning’s impatience and arrogance on the fans. We went through a shit ass period for like 8 years and yes there was never a proper rebuild. That doesn’t change the fact if we were to do one now it wouldn’t take 4-10 years.

NJ drafted Zacha in 2015 with a 6th OA pick. I wouldn’t call that middling, that’s downright suckage to draft that high without winning the lottery. And Hirscher was a lottery win for them, it wasn’t like they finished that low on the standings.

Senators took how many years? 5? so am I wrong for saying it could take 4-10 years?

the sabres and oilers are both examples of teams that got impatient with rebuilding/retooling and made a bunch of stupid moves to "support their young core" that ended up setting them back

That’s cause getting out of a tank is hard… you guys make it seem like it’s a cakewalk to get out of a rebuild.

 

[Pump n Dump]

Why even be a Canucks fan if you want them to dump their best players for lottery tickets?

Just incredibly dumb.

Why even be a Canucks fan if you aren't capable of erasing all memory of the last decade at the end of each season and getting all excited that your team may amount to something? I mean, look at how much success those great players have brought! Some fans may be that stupid. Pettersson isn't.

 

[arttk]

Why even be a Canucks fan if you aren't capable of erasing all memory of the last decade at the end of each season and getting all excited that your team may amount to something? I mean, look at how much success those great players have brought! Some fans may be that stupid. Pettersson isn't.

If he is unwilling to extend then we’ll get another 4-10 years of rebuild. If there going to happen then what does 1 more year of suckage really matter.

 

[TruGr1t]

That’s cause getting out of a tank is hard… you guys make it seem like it’s a cakewalk to get out of a rebuild.

You can't short-circuit the process and that's the entire point. And the Oilers' Lowe-MacTavish era was similar to Benning-era incompetence in some aspects in terms of competitive impact. They're lucky they have McDavid-Draisaitl, which are literally riches beyond which any franchise should be entitled. It is also a completely unique set of circumstances that makes for a poor comparison broadly.

 

[strattonius]

There's examples of teams that tanked that have turned their franchise around and there's just as many examples of those teams that turned in to nothing more than mediocre.

This goes both ways - retooling isn't necessarily the way to success and there are examples of it failing as well as succeeding. Benning is a great example of how not to re-tool. Zito is a great example of how to re-tool.

Essentially it comes down to execution and what chips you have on the table. As has been said over and over and over it just doesn't make sense to blow it up rebuild with some of the core players we have.

 

[arttk]

You can't short-circuit the process and that's the entire point. And the Oilers' Lowe-MacTavish era was similar to Benning-era incompetence in some aspects in terms of competitive impact. They're lucky they have McDavid-Draisaitl, which are literally riches beyond which any franchise should be entitled. It is also a completely unique set of circumstances that makes for a poor comparison broadly.

Are you suggesting LA and NY didn’t short circuit their process?

 

[Bubbles]

There's examples of teams that tanked that have turned their franchise around and there's just as many examples of those teams that turned in to nothing more than mediocre.

This goes both ways - retooling isn't necessarily the way to success and there are examples of it failing as well as succeeding. Benning is a great example of how not to re-tool. Zito is a great example of how to re-tool.

Essentially it comes down to execution and what chips you have on the table. As has been said over and over and over it just doesn't make sense to blow it up rebuild with some of the core players we have.

And out of the last 15 Stanley Cup winners, only the Blues, Bruins and Vegas have not tanked/rebuild.

The anti-tank crew always bring up Arizona, Edmonton and Buffalo. But they never bring up Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington. That's only SC winners.

Than we have NY, New Jersey, Florida, Toronto, who are all now legit contenders. I'm probably forgetting some teams here.

So there's many more examples of it working than not-working. Even if you include Detroit, that's only 4 teams that haven't had a rebuild work properly.

 

[arttk]

And out of the last 15 Stanley Cup winners, only the Blues, Bruins and Vegas have not tanked/rebuild.

The anti-tank crew always bring up Arizona, Edmonton and Buffalo. But they never bring up Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington. That's only SC winners.

Than we have NY, New Jersey, Florida, Toronto, who are all now legit contenders. I'm probably forgetting some teams here.

So there's many more examples of it working than not-working. Even if you include Detroit, that's only 4 teams that haven't had a rebuild work properly.

Actually blues did rebuild and Bruins. They just did it once and continue to build. All times have gone through cycles of suckage and drafted high. The thing you all ignore is that they continue to build after they get their franchise guy and don’t typically go to another rebuild unless shit is beyond dire.

You don’t see any team rebuild while having multiple franchise players at a young age, at least not willingly.

 

[Bubbles]

Actually blues did rebuild and Bruins. They just did it once and continue to build. All times have gone through cycles of suckage and drafted high. The thing you all ignore is that they continue to build after they get their franchise guy and don’t typically go to another rebuild unless shit is beyond dire.

You don’t see any team rebuild while having multiple franchise players at a young age, at least not willingly.

I'm talking about tanking for 3-4 years and rebuilding. The Blues and Bruins never did that. They've always retooled. And both have never had multiple top-5 picks.

 

[arttk]

I'm talking about tanking for 3-4 years and rebuilding. The Blues and Bruins never did that. They've always retooled. And both have never had multiple top-5 picks.

Hello Pietrangelo, Eric Johnson? They went through 3 years of like having 9-10 picks each year with multiple first rounders. What did you think happened there? They just continue to build after that period of rebuild.

you are right about Bruins.

If you look at all the teams, almost of them try to get the f*** out of rebuild zone asap after they get their franchise guy and some are successul at it and some are not and it’s understandably hard because you need to make great trades and FA signings to get out. Do you guys honestly think that teams get out of a rebuild purely from all the draft capital?

 

[Bubbles]

Hello Pietrangelo, Eric Johnson? They went through 3 years of like having 9-10 picks each year with multiple first rounders. What did you think happened there? They just continue to build after that period of rebuild.

you are right about Bruins.

If you look at all the teams, almost of them try to get the f*** out of rebuild zone asap after they get their franchise guy and some are successul at it and some are not and it’s understandably hard because you need to make great trades and FA signings to get out. Do you guys honestly think that teams get out of a rebuild purely from all the draft capital?

If you want to count the Blues as a tank/rebuild, than that's fine. That just proves my point that there are WAY more teams that have done that and succeeded than guys than teams that have not (a point @strattonius was referring to.

The Blues won in 2019 so that would be a 13-14 year rebuild if you count Johnson as the start. Note Johnson was long gone before that. Most of that Blues team came from 2010-11.

I guess I'm one of the few here that don't have a problem trading Petey, Hughes or Demko. I'm not afraid to full scorched earth. It's better than waiting how many years to get rid of Benning's crap and using that as a crutch for the next few years.

 

[rypper]

I guess I'm one of the few here that don't have a problem trading Petey, Hughes or Demko. I'm not afraid to full scorched earth. It's better than waiting how many years to get rid of Benning's crap and using that as a crutch for the next few years.

If you trade those three, how soon do you realistically think it'll take for the team to turn it around, make the playoffs again?

 

[Bubbles]

If you trade those three, how soon do you realistically think it'll take for the team to turn it around, make the playoffs again?

5 years minimum. Than 5 years of actual SC contenders.

 

[Brookbank]

Don’t project Benning’s impatience and arrogance on the fans. We went through a shit ass period for like 8 years and yes there was never a proper rebuild. That doesn’t change the fact if we were to do one now it wouldn’t take 4-10 years.

NJ drafted Zacha in 2015 with a 6th OA pick. I wouldn’t call that middling, that’s downright suckage to draft that high without winning the lottery. And Hirscher was a lottery win for them, it wasn’t like they finished that low on the standings.

Senators took how many years? 5? so am I wrong for saying it could take 4-10 years?


That’s cause getting out of a tank is hard… you guys make it seem like it’s a cakewalk to get out of a rebuild.

Some of us were never big tear down/rebuild advocates. But when your season goes to hell, fighting the downward momentum is the stupidest thing you can do. And that's what this team always does. When Demko went down and the playoffs were out, we should have tanked. Don't try and fight fate. Don't try and be god. If it isn't your year, it isn't your year. Embrace the slide, get a real draft pick and try again next year.

 

[arttk]

If you want to count the Blues as a tank/rebuild, than that's fine. That just proves my point that there are WAY more teams that have done that and succeeded than guys than teams that have not (a point @strattonius was referring to.

The Blues won in 2019 so that would be a 13-14 year rebuild if you count Johnson as the start. Note Johnson was long gone before that. Most of that Blues team came from 2010-11.

I guess I'm one of the few here that don't have a problem trading Petey, Hughes or Demko. I'm not afraid to full scorched earth. It's better than waiting how many years to get rid of Benning's crap and using that as a crutch for the next few years.

If we do a rebuild, the primary objective is always going to be draft a 1C, 1D and 1W and get more depth.
Like we have a 1C, 1D and 1W already. Why the f*** do we want to spend 4-10 years and redo that all over again? Are you saying it’s that hard to get another 1W, 2C and a couple of top 6 wingers and top4 guys that we have to rebuild to get it?

Like the whole idea of we’ll do a rebuild for 5 and then we’ll compete for 5 is so widely unrealistic it’s crazy. Like what happens if we end up drafting a LaF and Kakko? Does the timeline now move another year or two? What happens if we end up like Detroit and never get an elite talent? Just infinite rebuild?
Like are the odds of getting another 2C, 1W and like another top4 guy so f***ing low that we might as well just go through 5+ of absolute shit?

Some of us were never big tear down/rebuild advocates. But when your season goes to hell, fighting the downward momentum is the stupidest thing you can do. And that's what this team always does. When Demko went down and the playoffs were out, we should have tanked. Don't try and fight fate. Don't try and be god. If it isn't your year, it isn't your year. Embrace the slide, get a real draft pick and try again next year.

I mean I don’t disagree with that at all. I don’t really agree with playing Demko so much down the stretch.

Despite ended up at 11, I really don’t think we missed out on anyone like we did with Zegras. Well maybe Michkov but our schedule was really against us anyways even if we didn’t play Demko. I think the only way for us to get to like 4-5 was to keep Bb for the rest of the season and boy I did wish that was the case.

 

[arttk]

the sabres and oilers are both examples of teams that got impatient with rebuilding/retooling and made a bunch of stupid moves to "support their young core" that ended up setting them back

Calling Sabres impatient is so wrong. They drafted in the top 10 for 10 years straight and Eichel was like in the middle of that.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The interesting thing for me is over time there'll start to be some itchiness for their crop of AGM's to move up or out, so do we see JR moving on, PA moving up to make way for a promotion to hold on to someone like Granato or Castonguay? People move along all the time but if they've got a talented group together then talent retention is one of the things needed to build dynasties.

I dont think this is trending towards this management group being here for long enough that Alvin is getting promoted to a president role. They've taken the shortcut approach at the cost of the future and should be replaced if this approach fails.

If you trade those three, how soon do you realistically think it'll take for the team to turn it around, make the playoffs again?

I think right now we are headed towards another decade of not contending.

 

[4th line culture]

Calling Sabres impatient is so wrong. They drafted in the top 10 for 10 years straight and Eichel was like in the middle of that.

Was it Vancouver's intention to be a lottery team last year? Was it Columbus's? Teams can try to win and still fail. Where the Sabres drafted says absolutely nothing about if they were trying to win or shortcut the rebuild.

 

[Hodgy]

The big thing that is being lost on some is that the quality of management is the single biggest factor in terms of success. It stands to reason that rebuilds have a higher likelihood of success than non rebuilds. So all things bring equal, you are more likely to win a cup if you complete a rebuild than not. This is evidenced by past Stanley Cup winners, and basic logic.

The problem is that people point to failed rebuilds with poor management as some kind of indication that they don’t work. What’s worse is that we see people advocating against rebuilds by using examples of failed rebuilds that, in reality, were unintentional rebuilds because their management team sucked. These type of rebuilds are less likely to succeed because of poor management.

In stark contrast, intentional rebuilds undertaken by quality management are far more like to succeed. And frankly, there are far fewer of these rebuilds because most start as unintentional largely due to the economic realities of owning an NHL team.

 

[arttk]

Was it Vancouver's intention to be a lottery team last year? Was it Columbus's? Teams can try to win and still fail. Where the Sabres drafted says absolutely nothing about if they were trying to win or shortcut the rebuild.

If you look at their draft history, Eichel was year 3 of drafting in the top10. The year after Eichel they had like 10 draft picks so it wasn’t like they were like we are done after 3 years.
Even if you look at year 5,6,7, they had their 1st and multiple 2nds.
the only time they have a real draft deficit was in 2020, 8 years into their rebuild. Are you guys suggesting that trying to get out of a rebuild in year f***ing 8 is way too soon?

 

[arttk]

The big thing that is being lost on some is that the quality of management is the single biggest factor in terms of success. It stands to reason that rebuilds have a higher likelihood of success than non rebuilds. So all things bring equal, you are more likely to win a cup if you complete a rebuild than not. This is evidenced by past Stanley Cup winners, and basic logic.

The problem is that people point to failed rebuilds with poor management as some kind of indication that they don’t work. What’s worse is that we see people advocating against rebuilds by using examples of failed rebuilds that, in reality, were unintentional rebuilds because their management team sucked. These type of rebuilds are less likely to succeed because of poor management.

In stark contrast, intentional rebuilds undertaken by quality management are far more like to succeed. And frankly, there are far fewer of these rebuilds because most start as unintentional largely due to the economic realities of owning an NHL team.

this is a gate driven league, purposely selling a shitty product when your sports team is like 3rd or 4th on the list is like f***ing suicide. That’s why most teams won’t do it. You don’t want to go through like at worst 10 years of suck age and lose a generation of fans. Look at Detroit.

Of course things are different in Canada where hockey is number 1 but even then at some point you are hurting the business. Canucks were horribly run and I imagine they have lost a generation of fans through this Benning cycle. I talk to folks and they don’t give a f*** about the Canucks and honestly I have no clue how the younger fans feel.

the fact that some people would argue that well we should just dive into this again and we’ll be done in 5 years and we’ll content for 5 years is just crazy. 5 and 5 is like the best case scenario where the stars need to align. You would need to hit on almost all your picks, trades and signings so the odds are just low, like super low. But if people think this management group can pull that off, then why the f*** can’t they believe that this management will just sign good players and make good trades and nail on the 1st rounders anyways. It’s funny that they think yeah they can do that if we rebuild but they can’t do that stuff if we don’t.

 

[DS7]

this is a gate driven league, purposely selling a shitty product when your sports team is like 3rd or 4th on the list is like f***ing suicide. That’s why most teams won’t do it. You don’t want to go through like at worst 10 years of suck age and lose a generation of fans. Look at Detroit.

Edmonton survived just fine selling a tank. Toronto i'll say is an outlier.

The thing is, the Canucks already were selling a shitty product, unintentionally, and still got the gate revenue these last 8 years. So I refuse to believe this market can't accept a rebuild. This kind of finish would make rebuilders like Columbus and Chicago pat themselves on the back, except they'd be stocked up with extra 1st and 2nds.

We had the pain of a rebuild, without the draft capital to show for it. Still can't believe ownership saw McDavid, Mathews, Bedard down the line and thought they should aim for 4 games of playoffs.

I agree with you that right now, it doesn't make sense to go into that cycle again, at least without seeing what this core can accomplish, but personally my threshold for pressing the 'nuke it from orbit' button is very low for this core.

the fact that some people would argue that well we should just dive into this again and we’ll be done in 5 years and we’ll content for 5 years is just crazy. 5 and 5 is like the best case scenario where the stars need to align. You would need to hit on almost all your picks, trades and signings so the odds are just low, like super low. But if people think this management group can pull that off, then why the f*** can’t they believe that this management will just sign good players and make good trades and nail on the 1st rounders anyways. It’s funny that they think yeah they can do that if we rebuild but they can’t do that stuff if we don’t.

Benning's kicked the can down the road for 8 years, the best time to accept a rebuild was then, the second best time is now. I mean we are committed to this path now, but we're simply too far behind in the deficit of depth and draft capital compared to our competition, and the Pacific is waking up now.

I get the reasoning behind that. Better to bite the bullet on the can that's been kicked down the road now for 8 years than accept it 5 years down the line when the experiment with this core tops out at a 2nd round exit.

Likewise, to win a cup with this team, we'll need consecutive 'high way robbery' trade wins and Kuzmenko level free agents to be relevant again. At the moment that feels like a lower odds than a top 5 pick panning out.

 

[arttk]

Since there is all these talk about short rebuild again, based on what NYR and LA did, here is a checklist for how to have one

- have guys that has trade value from the start that you can trade for picks and prospects. LA and NYR had a bunch of vets to trade away
-and still have really damn good vets willing to go through it. LA had Kopitar and Doughty, NYR had Kreider and Zibinjaed(sp)
- have damn good FAs willing to sign for you in a middle of a tank. LA had Danault and NYR had Panarin
- draft well outside of the top pick, LA and NYR f***ed if their top picks (byfield, LaF, Kaako) but did well later in the draft
- make really good trades as try to get out of a rebuild. NYR traded for Trouba, LA got Fiala, Arvidsson.

Like we don’t have good vets that wants to stick around, we don’t have the natural advantage LA and NYr has to attract FA. So yeah if we do a rebuild it will take a lot longer.

 

[rypper]

Vancouver's gate revenue took a major hit during Benning's reign of error here and even the valuation of the franchise dipped. (Or at least didn't see the increases other franchises did during the same time.)

There was a time where you had to pay to be on the waiting list for season tickets. I haven't had any kind of ticket package for years and they still call and send begging emails.

That is kind of beside the point though. If Vancouver ever wanted to rebuild the fans would support it if they did it right and did the NYR letter plan. We're kind of past that point right now though.