Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[MS]

You cheer for Aqua to get some playoff revenue. I cheer for the canucks to win a cup.

No wrong way to be a fan buddy.

No, you set up a fantasyland expectation that no owner/business in the real world would ever consider and then get endlessly upset when the thing that was never going to happen predictably doesn’t happen.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No, you set up a fantasyland expectation that no owner/business in the real world would ever consider and then get endlessly upset when the thing that was never going to happen predictably doesn’t happen.

To take a step back last year and wait out some of the shit contracts. And accumulate assets. Build towards a timing.

Completely idiotic unrealistic #videogamelogic

No other way to go about it but to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Good thing for you is that if they are willing to infinitely spend futures they can remain a playoff bubble team forever.


Edit. I try to leave you alone since this is obviously not worth discussing with you but I found my self in a bad mood and could not help my self.

 

[MS]

To take a step back last year and wait out some of the shit contracts. And accumulate assets. Build towards a timing.

Completely idiotic unrealistic #videogamelogic

No other way to go about it but to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Good thing for you is that if they are willing to infinitely spend futures they can remain a playoff bubble team forever.

And that entire plan is video games.

If you go to the owner of a pro sports team and tell him that your plan for his 93-point young-core team is to go backwards and miss the playoffs on purpose you would get fired. Especially in the context of this team in particular where a step back the previous year had completely alienated that core. I don’t know why this is so difficult to understand. It isn’t how sports works.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

And that entire plan is video games.

If you go to the owner of a pro sports team and tell him that your plan for his 93-point young-core team is to go backwards and miss the playoffs on purpose you would get fired. Especially in the context of this team in particular where a step back the previous year had completely alienated that core. I don’t know why this is so difficult to understand. It isn’t how sports works.

You are wrong.

It happens all the time in pro sports.

Detroit did it this past season.

Stop repeating this drivel.

 

[Petey O]

You are wrong.

It happens all the time in pro sports.

Detroit did it this past season.

Stop repeating this drivel.

So, a Canucks equivalent of the Hronek trade would likely be trading Kuzmenko for a 1st+. How do you think Pettersson and Hughes would respond to trading such an effective player for 'futures'?

 

[MS]

You are wrong.

It happens all the time in pro sports.

Detroit did it this past season.

Stop repeating this drivel.

Detroit has had back-to-back 25th place finishes and are being forced to rebuild their rebuild because they have no elite talent. Not the same thing as a team that had a point total that would have made the playoffs in 3 of the previous 4 years with the quality of core players we had.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So, a Canucks equivalent of the Hronek trade would likely be trading Kuzmenko for a 1st+. How do you think Pettersson and Hughes would respond to trading such an effective player for 'futures'?

How has their lackluster moves affected Pettersson? Did I miss him rushing to sign an extension?

 

[Petey O]

How has their lackluster moves affected Pettersson? Did I miss him rushing to sign an extension?

Pettersson wants to see the team building toward the playoffs, sooner rather than later. The team has made moves to become a playoff team. You may not agree with them, but they addressed key positions that were lacking (all of which happen to be good PKers).

These guys want to get into playoff games. Playoff experience is valuable for young players. If the team is making futures trades while teams like Vegas are being aggressive with player acquisition to get better earlier and winning cups as a result, how do you think the core would feel?

The Canucks have the pieces at every position to be a good team. The players have confidence in themselves. You can't just rip apart players that have gelled with the core and expect the morale to be good enough to 'wait it out' in a rebuild/aggressive retool.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Detroit has had back-to-back 25th place finishes and are being forced to rebuild their rebuild because they have no elite talent. Not the same thing as a team that had a point total that would have made the playoffs in 3 of the previous 4 years with the quality of core players we had.

They have a young core who could also throw the kind of hissy fits you imagine Hughes and Pettersson to throw if they take a step back on purpose.

They were making the playoffs but their goal is not to sneak in to the playoffs. It is to win cups.

It happens all the time all over pro sports.

Seider is elite.

Raymond is better than any of our wingers.


Benning broke you. Youve accepted mediocrity as the goal. Its absolutely tragic to watch you attack posters while campaigning for mediocrity....

 

[arttk]

And that entire plan is video games.

If you go to the owner of a pro sports team and tell him that your plan for his 93-point young-core team is to go backwards and miss the playoffs on purpose you would get fired. Especially in the context of this team in particular where a step back the previous year had completely alienated that core. I don’t know why this is so difficult to understand. It isn’t how sports works.

I love how the tank people complain about how being in the mushy middle means those 1st rounders don’t get you good players but at the same time advocate for trading away Kuz and Miller so we can get some sweet late 1st rounders that will definitely not bust and give us that crazy contender depth.

 

[Petey O]

Raymond is better than any of our wingers.

Lucas Raymond is better than Andrei Kuzmenko? Bold statement.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Pettersson wants to see the team building toward the playoffs, sooner rather than later. The team has made moves to become a playoff team. You may not agree with them, but they addressed key positions that were lacking (all of which happen to be good PKers).

These guys want to get into playoff games. Playoff experience is valuable for young players. If the team is making futures trades while teams like Vegas are being aggressive with player acquisition to get better earlier and winning cups as a result, how do you think the core would feel?

The Canucks have the pieces at every position to be a good team. The players have confidence in themselves. You can't just rip apart players that have gelled with the core and expect the morale to be good enough to 'wait it out' in a rebuild/aggressive retool.

Petters on is on record saying he wants to win multiple cups.

He wont be swayed by sneaking in to the playoffs. There needed to be a clear runway towards contention for him to sign an extension.

The failures of last year dont help. Miller extension, Horvat trade, Doerrie, Bruce, Pearsson, handling of Mikheyevs knee injury... it was just horrific mismanagement from week to week on all levels of the organization.

Lucas Raymond is better than Andrei Kuzmenko? Bold statement.

Didnt think that would be a controversial statement. But okay...

 

[DS7]

Pettersson wants to see the team building toward the playoffs, sooner rather than later. The team has made moves to become a playoff team. You may not agree with them, but they addressed key positions that were lacking (all of which happen to be good PKers).

These guys want to get into playoff games. Playoff experience is valuable for young players. If the team is making futures trades while teams like Vegas are being aggressive with player acquisition to get better earlier and winning cups as a result, how do you think the core would feel?

The Canucks have the pieces at every position to be a good team. The players have confidence in themselves. You can't just rip apart players that have gelled with the core and expect the morale to be good enough to 'wait it out' in a rebuild/aggressive retool.

I think petey wants to stay
He just wants to show management he is a consistent 100pt player and that last year was no one off.

He wants the Pastranak/Mathews bag.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I think petey wants to stay
He just wants to show management he is a consistent 100pt player and that last year was no one off.

He wants the Pastranak/Mathews bag.

I dont think so.

He wants to compete for the cup.

 

[MS]

They have a young core who could also throw the kind of hissy fits you imagine Hughes and Pettersson to throw if they take a step back on purpose.

They were making the playoffs but their goal is not to sneak in to the playoffs. It is to win cups.

It happens all the time all over pro sports.

Seider is elite.

Raymond is better than any of our wingers.


Benning broke you. Youve accepted mediocrity as the goal. Its absolutely tragic to watch you attack posters while campaigning for mediocrity....

How I think about sports and what I think this team should be doing hasn’t changed an iota. My take was the same in 2020 and 2021. I was saying this team should be looking at trading for Mark Stone at the 2019 deadline when we were out of the playoffs. And I sure as shit wasn’t crying that the team should trade the Sedins and Luongo and tank back in 2008.

Benning broke people like you who are stuck in endless negativity loop and are living in a fantasyland still having FOMO about what should have happened in 2016.

Detroit’s core is also not remotely close to ours and hasn’t cleared 80 points in a season as opposed to a core that went on a 17-game playoff run and was coming off 93 points.

 

[MS]

I love how the tank people complain about how being in the mushy middle means those 1st rounders don’t get you good players but at the same time advocate for trading away Kuz and Miller so we can get some sweet late 1st rounders that will definitely not bust and give us that crazy contender depth.

My favourite is always how the Venn diagram of the ‘horde picks for currency’ crowd and the ‘absolutely freak out if a pick is used for currency’ crowd is a perfect circle.

 

[Petey O]

Petters on is on record saying he wants to win multiple cups.

He wont be swayed by sneaking in to the playoffs. There needed to be a clear runway towards contention for him to sign an extension.

The failures of last year dont help. Miller extension, Horvat trade, Doerrie, Bruce, Pearsson, handling of Mikheyevs knee injury... it was just horrific mismanagement from week to week on all levels of the organization.


Didnt think that would be a controversial statement. But okay...

You need to take steps as a team to win cups. Young players need playoff experience. You need a window of success where you're competitive and learning how to play with the pressure and atmosphere, etc, and to really buy into the system.

The Canucks have the core pieces in goal, on the defense and at centre to be a very competitive team. The answer is to build when you have these pieces; insulate the young core with players that will form a good support around them so they can shine. Get to the playoffs, gain experience, and come together as a team.

Kuzmenko was a huge step towards regular competitiveness. Hronek was a nice step towards being a good team, as well. These are top 6/top 4 players that you need to have around your core guys to be good. In fact, I'd argue that Andrei is significant enough to be considered part of the core, as well.

This team has been losing for way too long. You need to build a winning culture. The time to rebuild was probably 4 or 5 years ago. There was a generationally bad front office running this organization at that time. The current FO has done a great job at cleaning up the mess so far (apart from the Boeser extension).

I hope you can enjoy this season despite your feelings toward the process the current FO has implemented toward success. I'd hate to be bitter after we were freed from the chains of the Benningbrod regime.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

How I think about sports and what I think this team should be doing hasn’t changed an iota. My take was the same in 2020 and 2021. I was saying this team should be looking at trading for Mark Stone at the 2019 deadline when we were out of the playoffs. And I sure as shit wasn’t crying that the team should trade the Sedins and Luongo and tank back in 2008.

Strawman.

Benning broke people like you who are stuck in endless negativity loop and are living in a fantasyland still having FOMO about what should have happened in 2016.

Nope. I hated Benning because I saw him first waste Horvats prime without a contention window.

Now I hate the current direction because they are wasting Petterssons and Hughes primes without a contention window.

Detroit’s core is also not remotely close to ours and hasn’t cleared 80 points in a season as opposed to a core that went on a 17-game playoff run and was coming off 93 points.

So you are one of the bubble playoffs guys now. Never thought I'd see the day...

You think you have not changed at all?

I love how the tank people complain about how being in the mushy middle means those 1st rounders don’t get you good players but at the same time advocate for trading away Kuz and Miller so we can get some sweet late 1st rounders that will definitely not bust and give us that crazy contender depth.

The sidekick showed up.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You need to take steps as a team to win cups. Young players need playoff experience. You need a window of success where you're competitive and learning how to play with the pressure and atmosphere, etc, and to really buy into the system.

We should have started taking those steps as soon as the new management showed up. Obviously sooner but thats neither here nor there.

The Canucks have the core pieces in goal,

Debateable.

on the defense and at centre to be a very competitive team.

EP & QH are good enough. That is not the issue.

The answer is to build when you have these pieces; insulate the young core with players that will form a good support around them so they can shine. Get to the playoffs, gain experience, and come together as a team.

They should have started to build towards a contention window the moment they arrived.

Kuzmenko was a huge step towards regular competitiveness. Hronek was a nice step towards being a good team, as well. These are top 6/top 4 players that you need to have around your core guys to be good. In fact, I'd argue that Andrei is significant enough to be considered part of the core, as well.

Even your buddy MS agrees that the Kuzmenko extension is a weird compromise. It wont last long enough for the team to contend for anything.

Hronek you have not seen play more than a few minutes. He should be decent. But he is also not cost controlled. Yes. The doing-a-little-bit-of-this-and-a-little-bit-of-that crowd will laugh at this concept, but unfortunately the NHL moved to a hard salary cap system for the 2005-2006 season. This is kind of important in all of this.

This team has been losing for way too long. You need to build a winning culture. The time to rebuild was probably 4 or 5 years ago. There was a generationally bad front office running this organization at that time. The current FO has done a great job at cleaning up the mess so far (apart from the Boeser extension).

And the Miller extension.

And handling of Bruce.

And handling of Doerrie.

And...

I hope you can enjoy this season despite your feelings toward the process the current FO has implemented toward success. I'd hate to be bitter after we were freed from the chains of the Benningbrod regime.

The process isnt bad. Its the Benning plan that they keep implementing. They are smart hockey people. I REALLY wished it were people like them in charge to try to build a contender around Quinn and Petey, but instead they too kept up the tradition of kicking the can down the road and dealing with it later.

I think it is obvious that Aqua went and found someone in JR who was willing to come in and keep just pushing forwards with short term moves.

 

[Diogenes92]

So much confidence in a core that has accomplished next to nothing.

I wish I could be easily satisfied with such mediocrity.

 

[arttk]

Strawman.

Nope. I hated Benning because I saw him first waste Horvats prime without a contention window.

Now I hate the current direction because they are wasting Petterssons and Hughes primes without a contention window.

So you are one of the bubble playoffs guys now. Never thought I'd see the day...

You think you have not changed at all?


The sidekick showed up.

lol
I asked a simple question yesterday and none of you tank bros were willing to answer it.

This management group was able to get 3 top6/top4 piece in Kuz, Miki and Hronek.

How unlikely/likely is it for them to get at least 2 more from now to the start of next season, 24-25. If we do that, how far are we to a contender?

If they can do that and then repeat that for another season, then how far are we from a contender. And how does that timeline work compare to you guys who want to dive into a 4-10 year rebuild.

 

[Diogenes92]

So you are one of the bubble playoffs guys now. Never thought I'd see the day...

You think you have not changed at all?

The sidekick showed up.

If the bubble "playoff run" is all they have to use for their brittle argument, then that should tell you how little they have to stand on.

I wouldn't waste too much time arguing with these guys. You'll end up pulling your hair out.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

lol
I asked a simple question yesterday and none of you tank bros were willing to answer it.

This management group was able to get 3 top6/top4 piece in Kuz, Miki and Hronek.

How unlikely/likely is it for them to get at least 2 more from now to the start of next season, 24-25. If we do that, how far are we to a contender?

If they can do that and then repeat that for another season, then how far are we from a contender. And how does that timeline work compare to you guys who want to dive into a 4-10 year rebuild.

Look.

I have zero trouble saying "Ok I was wrong. They pulled it off. We now have a contender and I was too stupid to see the path towards it." if that ever happens.

You will NEVER do the same. You will NEVER say you got this all wrong.

 

[credulous]

lol
I asked a simple question yesterday and none of you tank bros were willing to answer it.

This management group was able to get 3 top6/top4 piece in Kuz, Miki and Hronek.

How unlikely/likely is it for them to get at least 2 more from now to the start of next season, 24-25. If we do that, how far are we to a contender?

If they can do that and then repeat that for another season, then how far are we from a contender. And how does that timeline work compare to you guys who want to dive into a 4-10 year rebuild.

they need 2 more top 6 wingers, 2 top 4 dmen and two or three middle six players including two centers and they need to not lose anything they have

how confident am i they can do that before sept 2025? not very

 

[arttk]

If the bubble "playoff run" is all they have to use for their brittle argument, then that should tell you how little they have to stand on.

I wouldn't waste too much time arguing with these guys. You'll end up pulling your hair out.

The problem with bubble playoffs is it set off expectation for the players that there needs to be year by year improvements and they are no longer in the rebuild mode.

Benning f***ed it up after and that basically eviscerated morale and you have Petey and Hughes coming out saying they don’t want to take a step back.

Whether or not the bubble playoffs was representative of where we should be as a team, it happened and it changed how our core players expect management to behave.

Look.

I have zero trouble saying "Ok I was wrong. They pulled it off. We now have a contender and I was too stupid to see the path towards it." if that ever happens.

You will NEVER do the same. You will NEVER say you got this all wrong.

I mean what do you want me to say I was wrong about?