Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[PuckMunchkin]

they need 2 more top 6 wingers, 2 top 4 dmen and two or three middle six players including two centers and they need to not lose anything they have

how confident am i they can do that before sept 2025? not very

And that.

I dont think what Attrak wants is enough.

They need players outperforming their contracts to have a hope to contend.

They will start 2025 with 4,5 million lit on fire. So they need to catch that up to break even. Then they need to find surplus value, to contend with the teams who have actually built the normal way and are not in a contract & prospect situation like a team exiting its cup window.

 

[Canucker]

lol
I asked a simple question yesterday and none of you tank bros were willing to answer it.

This management group was able to get 3 top6/top4 piece in Kuz, Miki and Hronek.

How unlikely/likely is it for them to get at least 2 more from now to the start of next season, 24-25. If we do that, how far are we to a contender?

If they can do that and then repeat that for another season, then how far are we from a contender. And how does that timeline work compare to you guys who want to dive into a 4-10 year rebuild.

Who was ever asking for a "4-10 year rebuild"? We've maybe been asking for a rebuild for the last 4-10 years...maybe.

 

[arttk]

they need 2 more top 6 wingers, 2 top 4 dmen and two or three middle six players including two centers and they need to not lose anything they have

how confident am i they can do that before sept 2025? not very

You still haven’t answered my question, when I said 2 more I was referring to top6/top4 guys. So like 1W,2C,2 top4 D.

So 2 more this coming year and 2 more the year after. How unlikely is that?

Also i don’t really considering 3rd line guys other than the center as hard to get. Seems like Raty is on track to be that 3C anyway. And if you get a 2C and 1W, you are bumping Miller and Miki to be the 2W anyways and you can get that extra 2W at that point as a TDP thing to throw in the 3rd line.

Who was ever asking for a "4-10 year rebuild"? We've maybe been asking for a rebuild for the last 4-10 years...maybe.

I rebuild lasts 4-10 years. It’s not like you can choose how long you want the rebuild to be when you start…

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Who was ever asking for a "4-10 year rebuild"? We've maybe been asking for a rebuild for the last 4-10 years...maybe.

Nobody.

The current management should have either thrown all caution to the wind and just went for it or they should have picked a timing. I would prefer when Myers contract runs out. To try to build towards that time.

You can either build for the now or build for the future, be it that in trades, ufa signings or contract negotiations. The current CBA makes it just about impossible to do both at the same time.

 

[arttk]

And that.

I dont think what Attrak wants is enough.

They need players outperforming their contracts to have a hope to contend.

They will start 2025 with 4,5 million lit on fire. So they need to catch that up to break even. Then they need to find surplus value, to contend with the teams who have actually built the normal way and are not in a contract & prospect situation like a team exiting its cup window.

The thing is when we tell you we can get surplus value from bottom of the lineup, you guys just ignore it and make assumption that you have to have surplus at top of the lineup. Well guess what, Hughes is providing that, whatever Petey will sign for will probably provide that. Hronek even if he is paid 7M will probably provide surplus value.

Also your projection assumes all draft picks we have made by not tanking will probably bust and not offer value where the draft picks we make if we rebuild will 100% not bust and offer surplus value.

It’s like you guys assume the absolute worst outcome if we don’t rebuild and absolute best outcome if we do rebuild and nothing is based on the most probable outcome for each scenario.

 

[HairyKneel]

We are now stuck with this insane plan that you and a handful of others here championed. A plan that wont lead to a contention window with Elias Pettersson.

How do you know?

You don’t know who will step up and improve or who will become available in a trade or as a free agent. Must be fun going through life as a constant pessimist.

 

[God]

i am excited to see if/how they're going to add another offensive star. myers' contract will expire, so they need to convert boeser and garland money into space for whoever they target. my pipe dream is nylander. you wonder if treliving takes boeser to '''replace''' nylander on the wing, ha.

 

[arttk]

i am excited to see if/how they're going to add another offensive star. myers' contract will expire, so they need to convert boeser and garland money into space for whoever they target. my pipe dream is nylander. you wonder if treliving takes boeser to '''replace''' nylander on the wing, ha.

I think part of excitement of sports is waiting to see what happens.

 

[Canucker]

I rebuild lasts 4-10 years. It’s not like you can choose how long you want the rebuild to be when you start…

Is that your professional opinion?

You can choose whatever timeframe you want when you are in charge.

 

[RobsonStreet]

And that.

I dont think what Attrak wants is enough.

They need players outperforming their contracts to have a hope to contend.

They will start 2025 with 4,5 million lit on fire. So they need to catch that up to break even. Then they need to find surplus value, to contend with the teams who have actually built the normal way and are not in a contract & prospect situation like a team exiting its cup window.

The odds are definitely stacked against the team.

That said, I think we get locked into this very narrow idea of how to build contenders based on the fact that most very good teams don’t win the cup (only one of approximately five very good teams in a given year get to win). Show me a model franchise and I’ll show you some combination of luck and/or weird circumstances that were involved.

For the hell of it I half-assed a web app a year ago to try and systematically illustrate what various paths to contention actually look like. It often gets weird:

https://sean-butler.shinyapps.io/HockeyRebuild/

 

[Canucker]

Nobody.

The current management should have either thrown all caution to the wind and just went for it or they should have picked a timing. I would prefer when Myers contract runs out. To try to build towards that time.

You can either build for the now or build for the future, be it that in trades, ufa signings or contract negotiations. The current CBA makes it just about impossible to do both at the same time.

They never "leaned into the suck", they always fought it....they should have leaned into it hard IMO....but hey, we're here now...its better than before I just think we could have been in a better position earlier...but I'll try and enjoy what we've got.

 

[arttk]

Is that your professional opinion?

You can choose whatever timeframe you want when you are in charge.

no it’s not based on opinion, it’s based on empirical evidence from all the rebuilds that has been done since cap was implemented.

Sure you can decide when to get out when you are in charge, it’s just that it’s hard to get out once you start and why a bunch of them ends up to be more around 7-10 years rather 4-6 years.

Everybody’s favorite Avs had a rebuild that lasted 9 years where they had to rebuild a rebuild. You think they willingly decided to rebuild a 2nd time and didn’t try their best to get out of the 1st one?

If it was a choice then every rebuild would be like 4 years.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

They never "leaned into the suck", they always fought it....they should have leaned into it hard IMO....but hey, we're here now...its better than before I just think we could have been in a better position earlier...but I'll try and enjoy what we've got.

I get too attached to the current players I guess.

Just feels sad that I'll be 50 and nobody currently on this team will be around when we are relevant again.

 

[Canucker]

Next year target
Kuz - Petey -

no it’s not based on opinion, it’s based on empirical evidence from all the rebuilds that has been done since cap was implemented.

Sure you can decide when to get out when you are in charge, it’s just that it’s hard to get out once you start and why a bunch of them ends up to be more around 7-10 years rather 4-6 years.

Everybody’s favorite Avs had a rebuild that lasted 9 years where they had to rebuild a rebuild. You think they willingly decided to rebuild a 2nd time and didn’t try their best to get out of the 1st one?

If it was a choice then every rebuild would be like 4 years.

Sure, they CAN last that long...but, if you already have a decent core group and just need to blow up the periphery, it potentially makes your rebuild that much faster/easier.

 

[arttk]

I get too attached to the current players I guess.

Just feels sad that I'll be 50 and nobody currently on this team will be around when we are relevant again.

I mean if you strongly believe that they won’t be able to improve on the team every year then sure. You were pessimistic about them being able to improve the team last TDL and they did.

Sure, they CAN last that long...but, if you already have a decent core group and just need to blow up the periphery, it potentially makes your rebuild that much faster/easier.

Once again you guys continue to ignore that the core group wants no part of a rebuild. It’s like you guys have a really hard time understanding no means no.

 

[Canucker]

Once again you guys continue to ignore that the core group wants no part of a rebuild. It’s like you guys have a really hard time understanding no means no.

And once again, you continue to ignore that I don't care if they want it or not...you don't let the inmates run the asylum...and no player is going to publicly say "Yes please!" to a rebuild.

 

[arttk]

And once again, you continue to ignore that I don't care if they want it or not...you don't let the inmates run the asylum...and no player is going to publicly say "Yes please!" to a rebuild.

Yes let’s force the guy who is not signed to a long term contract to go through a rebuild and convince him to exercise his arb rights so he can get out asap. And on top of that, force unhappy players to stay to foster a toxic locker room environment so the new draft pick can really feel the poison in the room.

You sound like many of those jackass managers who don’t give a f*** about how people feel and end up creating a toxic ass environment where everyone is looking to leave and underperforming.

Also asylum and inmates is a really poor analogy and really shows how you see people. These people are employees who are paid to function. It’s on management to convince them that this is the place to stay and to give 100%+.

 

[Canucker]

Yes let’s force the guy who is not signed to a long term contract to go through a rebuild and convince him to exercise his arb rights so he can get out asap. And on top of that, force unhappy players to stay to foster a toxic locker room environment so the new draft pick can really feel the poison in the room.

You sound like many of those jackass managers who don’t give a f*** about how people feel and end up creating a toxic ass environment where everyone is looking to leave and underperforming.

You can spin a mean yarn buddy.

 

[Diogenes92]

How do you know?

You don’t know who will step up and improve or who will become available in a trade or as a free agent. Must be fun going through life as a constant pessimist.

The pessimists have ten years of evidence to fall back on and fear that the current plan will turn out the same way.

The optimists hope to squeak into the playoffs by a point or two and have everything go right. Its a bit of a fairy tale if you ask me.

 

[arttk]

The pessimists have ten years of evidence to fall back on and fear that the current plan will turn out the same way.

The optimists hope to squeak into the playoffs by a point or two and have everything go right. Its a bit of a fairy tale if you ask me.

It’s not hard to predict Benning will fail horribly. Also predicting Benning will fail is not a pessimistic take, it’s a logical and evidence based take.

You are assuming those of us who argue against a rebuild now are doing it based on blind optimism and not based on logic and reason

 

[HairyKneel]

And once again, you continue to ignore that I don't care if they want it or not...you don't let the inmates run the asylum...and no player is going to publicly say "Yes please!" to a rebuild.

So a guy in Texas and a guy in Finland are pounding a drum for a scorched earth rebuild. So the teams been a garbage fire for a decade, let’s get rid of two of the best players in the game that are 23 and 24. How many games do you guys attend?

The STH wield a lot of power here and they don’t want to watch a shitty team for another five years. They have chosen to try and build around Hughes, Demko and Peter.

The pessimists have ten years of evidence to fall back on and fear that the current plan will turn out the same way.

The optimists hope to squeak into the playoffs by a point or two and have everything go right. Its a bit of a fairy tale if you ask me.

I’m sorry… did Jim Benning get rehired by the Canucks?

 

[Peen]

the notion that only people who go to games opinions matter is so stupid with the amount of empty seats they’ve had the last decade (idc what they paper it as for seats “sold”). coming from someone who’s been to well over 100 lol it literally does not matter for shit

yeah i wanted them to not play demko as much and go harder for better odds at bedard sue me

yeah i didnt buy the myers oel renaissance top pairing thing sue me

 

[arttk]

yeah i wanted them to not play demko as much and go harder for better odds at bedard sue me

yeah i didnt buy the myers oel renaissance top pairing thing sue me

Don’t think there are many people that disagree on those 2 points

 

[HairyKneel]

the notion that only people who go to games opinions matter is so stupid with the amount of empty seats they’ve had the last decade (idc what they paper it as for seats “sold”). coming from someone who’s been to well over 100 lol it literally does not matter for shit

yeah i wanted them to not play demko as much and go harder for better odds at bedard sue me

yeah i didnt buy the myers oel renaissance top pairing thing sue me

Hey I’ve been to well over 500, good for me. The bottom line is the STH pay the freight. They don’t want to watch another tire fire for a half decade. The rest of your post is just strange.

 

[Peen]

Don’t think there are many people that disagree on those 2 points

I know MS did and those posts got a loooot of likes when he would push back on that.

Frankly I don’t know how you would agree with those two points and then push back on the idea that they should have stepped back over the past 18 months more than they should have, which I know a lot of people here genuinely believe was impossible and would have led to an earlier departure for EP/QH.