Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[mriswith]

Holland was a failure and those were all wasted years with nothing to show for them until Yzerman came on board in 2019. Their rebuild failed under Holland and was basically restarted by Yzerman back in 2019, but it isn't failing now.

Selling at this juncture doesn't mean they're restarting it or that it failed.

He did the same thing in Tampa Bay, selling at the deadline for years after most on this board would have been raging to go all in at the deadline for a crack at the playoffs. If he doesn't feel his team can go on a run, he sells. That foundational work and patience is why JBB has been able to spend big assets on small pieces for so many years with success.

The only takeaway from how long Detroits rebuild has gone is that a shit GM can ruin any strategy. A rebuild under Holland could have gone a decade with little to show for it. A retool under Benning, same thing, he spent a decade on it and got literally nowhere.

Arizona has spent 25 years doing the retool->fake rebuild into immediate shortcuts->retool and repeat, exactly what Aquilini continually forces our franchise into.

 

[timw33]

He's a sore loser...I would have a player like that in the room if i was constructing a team..He reminds me a bit of Roy Keane from Man U.

When a collective team mentality finds losing to be 'acceptable',.. you're in deep trouble.

Counterpoint: a player who is a sore loser and essentially "blacks out" can become a swirling pit of negativity and tension internally. I would take the Daniel/Henrik level of sore losing where they are extremely competitive but know how and when to speak up and push team mates in a constructive manner.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Not gonna give any props to a 'rebuild' team until they actually do something of note.

A lot of dismay over a team just "trying to make the playoffs" while praising teams that can't even do that.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Counterpoint: a player who is a sore loser and essentially "blacks out" can become a swirling pit of negativity and tension internally. I would take the Daniel/Henrik level of sore losing where they are extremely competitive but know how and when to speak up and push team mates in a constructive manner.

You need both types of leadership on a team imo..Rick Tocchet as a player was a ‘bad loser’..holding players accountable..

I remember the Sedins captaincy coming under all types of criticism back in the day for seemingly being apathetic.

 

[krutovsdonut]

You wish a gm would try to gut the best efforts of their team mid-season on a team that has been awful for like 8 years and is now filled with young players?

If you did that to a team intentionally you end up with the 2021 canucks. A team that feels deeply betrayed by management is prone to giving up on the team.

It's completely not rooted in reality and is the epitome of prospect message board wish casting.

well first off, yzerman absolutely just did that. he traded hronek and bertuzzi who were significant parts of the team when they were in a playoff run. he cut his team off at the knees. so we will now see if you are correct and if the team feels betrayed. i doubt it.

the question of whether he did it because he didn't think the wings would make the playoffs or because he was worried they might achieve ephemeral success that would actually set the team back compared to trading assets now is academic. if he did it for the latter reason nobody would ever know unless he ran around blabbing it, which he will not explicitly do, although he did say in his press conference that the team "was not ready" which could cover either conclusion.

as for whether i wish for a gm to do that, i would say that i do wish for a gm who had the courage to do that if that is what he genuinely had concluded was best for the team. just like i'd wish for a farmer who would prune back a fruit tree hard to get it healthy even at the expense of a possible good crop this year.

what i don't wish for is a gm who wastes capital and time on a "compete now" philosophy when a realistic assessment is that doing that is a large gamble and that any short term success would be unsustainable. we have seen that strategy fail over and over and we have seen that its consequences are cumulative and ultimately crippling. unmistakeably, that strategy got us to here. from loui eriksson to oel.

it should be painfully obvious by now that in the cap era even the most diligent gm struggles to extricate himself from bad decisions and bad cap and the days when you could just trade the team to mix it up are gone and buried. you have just watched jr, one of the most prolific traders in the league, absolutely struggle over 18 months to move a single bad contract, and only succeed once by paying a 2nd round draft pick to escape a modest over payment on dickinson. he has not made a dent in our dead cap situation other than what has naturally occurred over time and he even f***ed that up by extending boeser and extending miller instead of trading them.

at this stage i do not want a gm who will expend a single meaningful asset, including committing cap long term, to any asset that is dedicated only to a short term playoff run. i do not want to see any energy or value used to do that if it could instead be deployed towards a sustainable team build. we need to use everything to get out of this tailspin.

let's hope hronek is a home run.

 

[strattonius]

I'm coming around to the idea of the trade.

Restructuring and building a new defense through the draft will take at least 5 years - or you could overspend in UFA which never works you just get worse, older players.

The only way to get a piece like Hronek is to trade for him.

This doesn't resemble Benning to me. Benning targeted UFA's or reclamation projects that needed to turn their game around. Hronek is neither of those and the price of acquiring him shows just that.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

You need both types of leadership on a team imo..Rick Tocchet as a player was a ‘bad loser’..holding players accountable..

I remember the Sedins captaincy coming under all types of criticism back in the day for seemingly being apathetic.

That because someone is quiet or has good sportsmanship means they don’t care about winning is a myth that needs to die. The Sedins were always the best in shape on the team coming to camp, and Bieksa has praised them for the culture they helped build. The people that called them apathetic are probably the same people that called them sisters.

There is no correlation between how much somebody cares about winning and how loud they are. I don’t care about how many F-bombs he says or how many times he smashes his stick on the bench if he plays the way he did earlier this year or for times in 2021. I want to see it on the ice, like he has in the past. He has looked much better under Tochter though.

 

[krutovsdonut]

by clarification of the above rant, i don't mean rebuild. if you want to retool in a sustainable way, that is fine. i have zero problem with trying to acquire assets that can be part of the present and future, or in taking cheap gambles on kravtsov's. i have a problem with expensive gambles.

one other comment. what benning did to doggedly retool and compete is forgiveably to some extent for having inherited the twins.

to do the same thing now to hang on to pettersson?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

That because someone is quiet or has good sportsmanship means they don’t care about winning is a myth that needs to die. The Sedins were always the best in shape on the team coming to camp, and Bieksa has praised them for the culture they helped build. The people that called them apathetic are probably the same people that called them sisters.

There is no correlation between how much somebody cares about winning and how loud they are. I don’t care about how many F-bombs he says or how many times he smashes his stick on the bench if he plays the way he did earlier this year or for times in 2021. I want to see it on the ice, like he has in the past. He has looked much better under Tochter though.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said here..I thought the Sedins were great leaders....My orignal point was that its good to recruit one or two 'bad losers' on your team...Players that vocally hold other players (even star players and themselves) accountable...This creates a culture (especially to younger players) that losing will never be accepted.

 

[arttk]

Holland was a failure and those were all wasted years with nothing to show for them until Yzerman came on board in 2019. Their rebuild failed under Holland and was basically restarted by Yzerman back in 2019, but it isn't failing now.

Selling at this juncture doesn't mean they're restarting it or that it failed.

He did the same thing in Tampa Bay, selling at the deadline for years after most on this board would have been raging to go all in at the deadline for a crack at the playoffs. If he doesn't feel his team can go on a run, he sells. That foundational work and patience is why JBB has been able to spend big assets on small pieces for so many years with success.

The only takeaway from how long Detroits rebuild has gone is that a shit GM can ruin any strategy. A rebuild under Holland could have gone a decade with little to show for it. A retool under Benning, same thing, he spent a decade on it and got literally nowhere.

Arizona has spent 25 years doing the retool->fake rebuild into immediate shortcuts->retool and repeat, exactly what Aquilini continually forces our franchise into.

No the issue is not about having a shit GM or not, it’s about how lucky you are with the draft. Detroit has not drafted well, it’s really a simple as that. Like it’s not like drafting improved 10 fold since yzerman came on board. He got them a shit ton more picks but the scouts aren’t doing shit with the extra picks.

I don’t think anyone is criticizing what he is doing. Like he should be getting picks but Detroit is an example of what happens when you rely on a strategy that is still fundamentally rooted in luck. Drafting is luck, Detroit just happened to have shit luck.

Wow 2020 is such a bad draft

 

[Peter Griffin]

This doesn't resemble Benning to me. Benning targeted UFA's or reclamation projects that needed to turn their game around. Hronek is neither of those and the price of acquiring him shows just that.

One of Benning’s best moves was similar in acquiring JT Miller. Except with Miller they got actual cost certainty with 4 years at what turned out to be a steal at $5.25M AAV. Unfortunately all of his other boneheaded moves wasted it.

 

[Diogenes92]

I do like that they have at least expressed their goals and expectations so it will be easy to evaluate them. Like, if they don’t make the playoffs next year then I would say they would be looking at a C grade or so (depending how far off they are), and that would put them on the hot seat for 2024-25. If they fail to make the playoffs again then they should most certainly be fired in my opinion.

"C" grade? Try "F".

This team was quoted multiple times as stating that missing the playoffs would be considered an "utter failure." And that was for this season and well before the Hronek trade.

If they miss the playoffs next year, there will be no excuses and the market (fans and media) should put full pressure for a rebuild or at least a soft-rebuild of 2 years with the purpose of aquiring draft picks and prospects.

If Petey and Hughes want to whine about not wanting a rebuild blah blah blah, then they should've done more to actually compete and make the playoffs this year and previous years, and they damn well better make the playoffs next year.

The entitlement and country club atmosphere in the locker room has been well publicized by a plethora of sources, and if that's really true, then its pathetic. This team has proven nothing and they have zero reason to be cocky and entitled.

 

[racerjoe]

I highly doubt Aqua would buy out OEL... he is too cheap and to stupid to understand why you do buy him out.

People thinking you don't buy him out because two season we need to carry a 5 mil cap hit do realize that right now we need to carry a 7.2 mil cap hit for a player who has been unplayable this season and out performed by a bunch of guys from abbotsford right? Like seriously 5 mil cap penalty Brisebois at 1 mil is not only actually batter but still saves a million dollars.

 

[Diogenes92]

I'm coming around to the idea of the trade.

Restructuring and building a new defense through the draft will take at least 5 years - or you could overspend in UFA which never works you just get worse, older players.

The only way to get a piece like Hronek is to trade for him.

This doesn't resemble Benning to me. Benning targeted UFA's or reclamation projects that needed to turn their game around. Hronek is neither of those and the price of acquiring him shows just that.

So what? We've been watching garbage hockey for nearly a decade now.

I'm fine with a patient approach. Just do it right. No more cutting corners.

 

[Diogenes92]

I highly doubt Aqua would buy out OEL... he is too cheap and to stupid to understand why you do buy him out.

Especially when he likely still believes his best bud Jimbo's epic speech about OEL being a #1 franchise changing Dman.

 

[credulous]

I highly doubt Aqua would buy out OEL... he is too cheap and to stupid to understand why you do buy him out.

People thinking you don't buy him out because two season we need to carry a 5 mil cap hit do realize that right now we need to carry a 7.2 mil cap hit for a player who has been unplayable this season and out performed by a bunch of guys from abbotsford right? Like seriously 5 mil cap penalty Brisebois at 1 mil is not only actually batter but still saves a million dollars.

assuming everything else is equal what do you do with 7m/5m/2m/2m in cap relief? you can't really use it to sign players to term. it's like having a shrinking salary cap. i don't think buying out oel is a bad idea because he's still worth anything -- he's not. i think it's a bad idea because it just buys you a little time

 

[valkynax]

I highly doubt Aqua would buy out OEL... he is too cheap and to stupid to understand why you do buy him out.

People thinking you don't buy him out because two season we need to carry a 5 mil cap hit do realize that right now we need to carry a 7.2 mil cap hit for a player who has been unplayable this season and out performed by a bunch of guys from abbotsford right? Like seriously 5 mil cap penalty Brisebois at 1 mil is not only actually batter but still saves a million dollars.

Lack of accountability and meritocracy has been the mantra of this team for quite some time now.

"C" grade? Try "F".

This team was quoted multiple times as stating that missing the playoffs would be considered an "utter failure." And that was for this season and well before the Hronek trade.

If they miss the playoffs next year, there will be no excuses and the market (fans and media) should put full pressure for a rebuild or at least a soft-rebuild of 2 years with the purpose of aquiring draft picks and prospects.

If Petey and Hughes want to whine about not wanting a rebuild blah blah blah, then they should've done more to actually compete and make the playoffs this year and previous years, and they damn well better make the playoffs next year.

The entitlement and country club atmosphere in the locker room has been well publicized by a plethora of sources, and if that's really true, then its pathetic. This team has proven nothing and they have zero reason to be cocky and entitled.

I would not blame too much of this on Pete or Hughes, both of them are doing their best to carry a team composed of pouty brats like Miller and pitiful losers like OEL - a team that our clueless management thought would reach cup level.

Of course in the center of this rotten blackhole of an organization sits our beloved Fredolini, sticking his blueberry-covered hands everywhere and turning everything he touches into shit.

 

[Diogenes92]

Lack of accountability and meritocracy has been the mantra of this team for quite some time now.



I would not blame too much of this on Pete or Hughes, both of them are doing their best to carry a team composed of pouty brats like Miller and pitiful losers like OEL - a team that our clueless management thought would reach cup level.

Of course in the center of this rotten blackhole of an organization sits our beloved Fredolini, sticking his blueberry-covered hands everywhere and turning everything he touches into shit.

I'm not happy hearing Hughes crying about not wanting to "be here for a rebuild".

Too bad, bud. Its not his job to manage the team's direction. He signed a 6 year deal. Make the playoffs and have some success and the rebuild crowd will be a lot quieter.

I'm just so sick of the excuses from the Canucks org and even within the fanbase. I need to see some results.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Lack of accountability and meritocracy has been the mantra of this team for quite some time now.



I would not blame too much of this on Pete or Hughes, both of them are doing their best to carry a team composed of pouty brats like Miller and pitiful losers like OEL - a team that our clueless management thought would reach cup level.

Of course in the center of this rotten blackhole of an organization sits our beloved Fredolini, sticking his blueberry-covered hands everywhere and turning everything he touches into shit.

Sigh another apologist. What about when Petey took the first 65 games off last year? Forgot about that didn’t you.

 

[mriswith]

I highly doubt Aqua would buy out OEL... he is too cheap and to stupid to understand why you do buy him out.

People thinking you don't buy him out because two season we need to carry a 5 mil cap hit do realize that right now we need to carry a 7.2 mil cap hit for a player who has been unplayable this season and out performed by a bunch of guys from abbotsford right? Like seriously 5 mil cap penalty Brisebois at 1 mil is not only actually batter but still saves a million dollars.

4 extra years of 2.1M penalty for a buyout in exchange for 2 years of saving 2.5M, not counting replacement cost, doesn't seem like a good deal. Plus no LTIR or trade potential if you buy him out.

I flip back and forth between wanting to press box him for the next 4 years vs force feeding him 25 min a night to see if he becomes interested in an extended trip to Robidas Island.

 

[valkynax]

I'm not happy hearing Hughes crying about not wanting to "be here for a rebuild".

Too bad, bud. Its not his job to manage the team's direction. He signed a 6 year deal. Make the playoffs and have some success and the rebuild crowd will be a lot quieter.

I'm just so sick of the excuses from the Canucks org and even within the fanbase. I need to see some results.

You know who is probably psyched to hear that? Fredolini and our management, this means they have an excuse to execute all these half-ass moves to feed their own ego and flawed plans. If anyone says differently, they can simply point towards Hughes and say hey man look, we don't want our star players to be unhappy, we're doing this for the sake of their careers!

I'm not saying that they are free of blames completely, it's a team game, either you win together or you lose together. Our incompetent management regimes had set this team up over the course of a decade to be a failure, and if this does not work out, they'll be the first ones to face the music.

Sigh another apologist. What about when Petey took the first 65 games off last year? Forgot about that didn’t you.

I never said that they are completely free of blames, did I? I merely said that I would not blame them too much, as the long list of shit going wrong in this team, Pete and Hughes are not really at the top - at least not right now.

 

[iFan]

Yea I don’t think buying out OEL makes too much sense… if we can clear out Myers, Garland and Boeser we can carry OEL

 

[racerjoe]

assuming everything else is equal what do you do with 7m/5m/2m/2m in cap relief? you can't really use it to sign players to term. it's like having a shrinking salary cap. i don't think buying out oel is a bad idea because he's still worth anything -- he's not. i think it's a bad idea because it just buys you a little time

It means having a competent 3rd pairing. Having him on your team takes a roster spot, on a sub replacement level player and 7.2 mil cap hit. Any savings puts you a head.

4 extra years of 2.1M penalty for a buyout in exchange for 2 years of saving 2.5M, not counting replacement cost, doesn't seem like a good deal. Plus no LTIR or trade potential if you buy him out.

I flip back and forth between wanting to press box him for the next 4 years vs force feeding him 25 min a night to see if he becomes interested in an extended trip to Robidas Island.

I accounted for the replacement player in Brisebois... but again it could be any competent 3rd pairing guy.

This is improvement by subtraction.

 

[NYVanfan]

Yea I don’t think buying out OEL makes too much sense… if we can clear out Myers, Garland and Boeser we can carry OEL

Better to wait a year to buy him out, better still, 2 years

Buyout Year: ‘23 ‘24 ‘25 ‘26 ‘27 ‘28 ‘29
Starting ‘23: 2.3, 4.8, 4.8, 2.1, 2.1, 2.1, 2.1
Starting ‘24: ___ 2.0, 4.4, 4.4, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8
Starting ‘25: ________ 4.2, 4.2, 1.5, 1.5

I suck at tables

 

[Raistlin]

Detroit still needs like 2-3 years of rebuilding before they can get out of this. They are outperforming their individual talent.
They have some good defensive pieces but they lack a lot which is surprising considering how long they have been tanking.

Detroit is like the prime example of how you can tank for a freaking long time and still not get the pieces you need to get out of a rebuild.

In terms of elite talent, Larkin is a piece, Seider is a piece, they have a lot more in their farm that are very promising players, the difference is one is playing a very patient game while vancouver is severely forcing the issue. Yzerman could've bought this deadline and it would gone down to the wire. He made the judgement that his team is not ready, so he sold and extended his rebuild. It's a smart judgement because he is not willing to settle for a roll the dice and hope for success making it in as a wildcard.

His goal is to win a cup.
What exactly is the Canucks' goal?

Why did they need to sell Horvat if the goal is to make playoffs next year? Because they are capped out. Why did Yzerman sell Hronek? Because he anticipated that he will cost 6 to 6.5, and it's not a sound investment. The cap is everything, every decision you make is based on it, and cap flexibility is the most important attribute you need to Build. Without patience after inheriting Bennings mess, all you can hope for is rolling snake eyes after sneaking in. Most of the fanbase has no appetite for that, hence we look at Yzerman, and we see an elite GM.

While Detroit is not perfect, not all his signings worked out, but his moves make sense. Detroit is a prime example of how to build a sustainable winner.