Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[arttk]

There really isn't a clear precedent for a bottom feeder re-tooling either. Unless, you count a team on the rise flopping high and drafting high again.

We are in uncharted waters. There are 2 young building blocks here, with a negative balance in cap space, no help coming down the pipeline and terrible anchor contracts. It's a mish mash. Therefore, non-conventional means have to be employed.

Well what Benning built is truly an outlier. Teams that are bottom of the league don’t tend to have a young 100+ pt center, ppg d and a top 5 goaltender but we are here because of how badly he saddled this team with shit contracts and awful support players that are super hard to move.

I don’t think there is any easy path or any apparent path that will lead to success. Like you talk about a short rebuild, that shit just doesn’t exist and to pull it off you would require perfect execution. Like really damn good drafting, trading and free agent signings. Hell if you can pull that off then you might as well retool because that’s what you need to pull off a retool.

Like rebuild is not a bad thing to advocate for, just know that it will take more than 4-5 years and because of how long it will take and Petey, Hughes and Demko will force a trade out. Some of us would like to see them around so that’s why we are ok with them trying to retool. It’s like you try to rebuild, you will lose those guys in a year or two. If you retool and it doesn’t look like it will work out, you will lose those guys in a year or two and we’ll end up rebuilding. Whatever path we take there is a large likelihood we’ll end up in the same place so we might as well see what happens if they give it a go.

Based on the moves they have made so far, it looks like pro scouting is a strength and that’s what you need for a successful retool.

 

[hookshott]

Dhaliwal reported literally yesterday that Pettersson will end contract negotiations and Tkachuk his way out if the team doesn’t turn things around next year. But keep going with Pettersson magically staying through a rebuild.

Is this the same Dhaliwal that confidently predicted that Tryamkin would be back with the Canucks?

A positive I will note is that just 12 months ago Ryan Johnson was ridiculed on this board and on canucks Twitter and now he could just be the most promising executive in the organization of not one of the most promising execs in the western conference.

What??

 

[hookshott]

They pushed their chips in when they gave JT his extension, plus the Hronke trade. That's a team trying to compete now, not to mention they way Tocchet and management rode their stars into the ground down the stretch for meaningless wins. Since that's the case, they cannot have a $7.26 million anchor on the roster.

The third and fourth years are the only kinda painful ones but a good management group can plan around that. To get $7.1 million in savings this upcoming season and almost $5 million in 2024-25 would be a massive boon.

That horrific Boeser extension comes off the books when the savings is only $2.5 million in years three and four of the buyout.

The plan can't be, "I hope we can put him on LTIR and recoup." He's a massive negative player. Almost anybody with two legs is better than him at this point.

Pretty sure you are not better than OEL! There are far more "massive negative players" in the League.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You should always be looking at making moves that help your teams timeline.

Rumours i heard were that they would have entertained Miller to the Pens if they got the 2 first rounders plus they could relay Zucker to a playoff team AND be able to move some of the returns Plus maybe even our 1st for a Lundell or Hayton replacement.

Is that not something you would want your management team trying to do? And none of that is a rebuild move. It would be providing cap space and finding a longer term solution at 2C without sabotaging progress for the 2 stars of this team no?

That's a retooling move. They wouldn't be trading Miller for pure future, they are looking for younger players that can immediately contribute. It is the right move IMO, and I would fully support that. Too bad it didn't work out.

However, the issue is that we keep getting told that Petey and Hughes wouldn't tolerate a retool, we must not take a step back, no matter how slight. We must compete NOW, even the last 20 games this season. Turning JTM into Lundell would means a step back in the immediate future, but it's absolutely perfect for the long term.

 

[Lindgren]

That's a retooling move. They wouldn't be trading Miller for pure future, they are looking for younger players that can immediately contribute. It is the right move IMO, and I would fully support that. Too bad it didn't work out.

However, the issue is that we keep getting told that Petey and Hughes wouldn't tolerate a retool, we must not take a step back, no matter how slight. We must compete NOW, even the last 20 games this season. Turning JTM into Lundell would means a step back in the immediate future, but it's absolutely perfect for the long term.

Pettersson and Hughes, on some accounts, are now full members of the senior management team, and they rival Benning for stupidity.

 

[me2]

You should always be looking at making moves that help your teams timeline.

Rumours i heard were that they would have entertained Miller to the Pens if they got the 2 first rounders plus they could relay Zucker to a playoff team AND be able to move some of the returns Plus maybe even our 1st for a Lundell or Hayton replacement.

Is that not something you would want your management team trying to do? And none of that is a rebuild move. It would be providing cap space and finding a longer term solution at 2C without sabotaging progress for the 2 stars of this team no?

That's a rebuild at that point. Replacing most of the D, half the wingers and 3 of 4 centres.

Rebuilding isn't possible...

 

[kranuck]

This should be a surprise to no one. His agent said earlier this year that he love Vancouver but hates losing. Pettersson himself made comments when he signed his last contract on seeing on where the team was at for the next extension. It’s funny that when we want to trade a veteran player with a family and kids, fans are shocked when they don’t waive their NTC because they prioritize stability for their families over playing in the playoffs again. But thin with hungry players just entering their primes that don’t have families, and have only experienced losing in the early part of their careers will want to stick around for a rebuild that will waste the first half of their careers.

This is from someone that is pro long-term building, but the time to do that around Pettersson has passed. It made sense to have a New Jersey like slow build when Linden wanted, or to take a step back after 2021 for a couple years. It’s just too late now.

Didn’t Linden hire one of the most incompetent GMs in NHL history?

And he thought Petey needed to be in the minors.

To confirm: You think the odds that they create a consistent playoff team starting next year are good, when they are 23-25th in even strength efficiency, can make minimal changes realistically, and have nothing coming down the pipeline? This must be due to expecting elite goaltending and a non-atrocious PK?

Yeah why not?

 

[kranuck]

Well what Benning built is truly an outlier. Teams that are bottom of the league don’t tend to have a young 100+ pt center, ppg d and a top 5 goaltender but we are here because of how badly he saddled this team with shit contracts and awful support players that are super hard to move.

I don’t think there is any easy path or any apparent path that will lead to success. Like you talk about a short rebuild, that shit just doesn’t exist and to pull it off you would require perfect execution. Like really damn good drafting, trading and free agent signings. Hell if you can pull that off then you might as well retool because that’s what you need to pull off a retool.

Like rebuild is not a bad thing to advocate for, just know that it will take more than 4-5 years and because of how long it will take and Petey, Hughes and Demko will force a trade out. Some of us would like to see them around so that’s why we are ok with them trying to retool. It’s like you try to rebuild, you will lose those guys in a year or two. If you retool and it doesn’t look like it will work out, you will lose those guys in a year or two and we’ll end up rebuilding. Whatever path we take there is a large likelihood we’ll end up in the same place so we might as well see what happens if they give it a go.

Based on the moves they have made so far, it looks like pro scouting is a strength and that’s what you need for a successful retool.

It’s pretty insane how bad the OEL deal was.

They could have more flexible cap and another decent prospect coming up.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

And that’s selling it short. It’s one thing to move on from Cull, who was put in a terrible situation with no support so I think his negative reputation is a bit overblown, and another to replace him with a guy like Colliton who is thriving in this role. Adding to it, the Sedins are taking to their development roles the same as they have with everything else, with the utmost effort. Also have another full-time skills coach in Svejkovsky.

If there’s one aspect of this management team that is unanimously a success, it’s the immediate restructuring and growth of the development pipeline. Samuelsson and Komisarek, from what I’ve read, are extremely active in their regions and spend a lot of time getting players prepared for moving up a level. Then at the AHL they have the coaches and 4 additional instructors (Sedins, Svejkosky, and Higgins). It’s very impressive and the results have been immediate.

Nah. None of it is overblown.

You saw his work with our NHL club this year.

He is a horrific coach. As the coach of a development league team he has 1 job. Help the young players improve under him. He failed that again and again.

Just because the prospects are bad does not mean he does not have the responsibility to help them get better. He was a coach that made prospects want to gtfo of the organization.

 

[sting101]

That's a rebuild at that point. Replacing most of the D, half the wingers and 3 of 4 centres.

Rebuilding isn't possible...

Not sure i follow?

Just because you're looking at making moves to get younger does not mean that it's all or nothing or that you cant have older players. It's pretty much every team that is trying to get younger and faster without getting worse.

The NY Rangers in 2016 traded 29yr old C Derrick Brassard for 23yr old Mika Zibenejad if the Canucks pulled off a similar move would that be a rebuild move?

You can piece it apart as things come available as long as your clear on what your looking for and are able to act. Obviously the cap situation makes it tougher but it's not impossible and moving Miller can be done in a fashion that works

 

[gringo]

How long until Jason King is replaced ?

 

[Jyrki21]

Actually, a short rebuild around them has a better chance to keep them at the end of it (if we're talking an 6-8 year contact for Pettersson and an extension for Demko). It gives them the best chance to add impact players over term. What's debatable is whether the act of of collecting picks over 2 years will induce one of Pettersson, Hughes or Demko to request a trade out amidst each player's tenure. Meaning: the action itself, because no matter what they do (Hronek), they can't ensure a good team as result.

This is kind of my thinking on the black/white "40 and 43 won't stick around for a rebuild" reaction. Obviously not for an Arizona Coyotes' approach, but again that's not really what anyone has asked for. Unless the players are idiots, they'd rather have a team that continues to get better while they're there, not one that tops out as an 8th seed with a hope and prayer when everyone stays healthy. So for example, having accumulated futures with the remainder of this lost season – including, absolutely, by trying for one of the top picks in a stacked 2023 draft – should in no way be the type of move that scares them off. Trading an expensive veteran or two for the flexibility to get better, likewise, should not scare them off.

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

 

[aight]

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

If only we could be so confident about the only “player” in the org that matters

 

[Lindgren]

This is kind of my thinking on the black/white "40 and 43 won't stick around for a rebuild" reaction. Obviously not for an Arizona Coyotes' approach, but again that's not really what anyone has asked for. Unless the players are idiots, they'd rather have a team that continues to get better while they're there, not one that tops out as an 8th seed with a hope and prayer when everyone stays healthy. So for example, having accumulated futures with the remainder of this lost season – including, absolutely, by trying for one of the top picks in a stacked 2023 draft – should in no way be the type of move that scares them off. Trading an expensive veteran or two for the flexibility to get better, likewise, should not scare them off.

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

There are about five different threads I'd like you to post this in.

 

[aight]

This is kind of my thinking on the black/white "40 and 43 won't stick around for a rebuild" reaction. Obviously not for an Arizona Coyotes' approach, but again that's not really what anyone has asked for. Unless the players are idiots, they'd rather have a team that continues to get better while they're there, not one that tops out as an 8th seed with a hope and prayer when everyone stays healthy. So for example, having accumulated futures with the remainder of this lost season – including, absolutely, by trying for one of the top picks in a stacked 2023 draft – should in no way be the type of move that scares them off. Trading an expensive veteran or two for the flexibility to get better, likewise, should not scare them off.

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

Now, did you come up with this on your PlayStation, or was it Xbox?

 

[arttk]

This is kind of my thinking on the black/white "40 and 43 won't stick around for a rebuild" reaction. Obviously not for an Arizona Coyotes' approach, but again that's not really what anyone has asked for. Unless the players are idiots, they'd rather have a team that continues to get better while they're there, not one that tops out as an 8th seed with a hope and prayer when everyone stays healthy. So for example, having accumulated futures with the remainder of this lost season – including, absolutely, by trying for one of the top picks in a stacked 2023 draft – should in no way be the type of move that scares them off. Trading an expensive veteran or two for the flexibility to get better, likewise, should not scare them off.

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

It’s easy for you to assume they are fine with it when they are the one going through it.
You guys keep on assuming that oh it’s just a quick step back as if that is actually true. Have any of you guys ever taken the time to really think through how quick is quick?

Like why would they be fine sucking ass for like 4 more years when they can just force their way out like Tkachuk and go to a better team right away? It’s not like sucking for 4 more years would guarantee that the team is going to be good, you miss on a couple of draft picks then 4 years then into 5 and then 6.

 

[4th line culture]

It’s easy for you to assume they are fine with it when they are the one going through it.
You guys keep on assuming that oh it’s just a quick step back as if that is actually true. Have any of you guys ever taken the time to really think through how quick is quick?

Like why would they be fine sucking ass for like 4 more years when they can just force their way out like Tkachuk and go to a better team right away? It’s not like sucking for 4 more years would guarantee that the team is going to be good, you miss on a couple of draft picks then 4 years then into 5 and then 6.

Tkachuk left after making it to the second round of the playoffs. Maybe he would have stayed if they missed instead. Bet you never thought about that.

 

[andora]

This is getting so dumb.. even dumber than it was months ago

The quick rebuildish whatever word it is relies on as much hope dreams luck garbage as the retool on the fly is getting painted as needing - if not more.

 

[RandV]

This is kind of my thinking on the black/white "40 and 43 won't stick around for a rebuild" reaction. Obviously not for an Arizona Coyotes' approach, but again that's not really what anyone has asked for. Unless the players are idiots, they'd rather have a team that continues to get better while they're there, not one that tops out as an 8th seed with a hope and prayer when everyone stays healthy. So for example, having accumulated futures with the remainder of this lost season – including, absolutely, by trying for one of the top picks in a stacked 2023 draft – should in no way be the type of move that scares them off. Trading an expensive veteran or two for the flexibility to get better, likewise, should not scare them off.

When players say they don't want to rebuild, this is a platitude about wanting to win. It doesn't mean "any short term step back, no matter how wise in the long term, must be avoided at all costs."

One of the primary things a rebuilding team does with those built up future assets is flip them for pro roster players at the appropriate time. How do you think guys like Timo Meier or Jakob Chychrun get traded? This is specifically related to Hronek, the timing looks weird because Jim Benning messed things up but it's essentially the same thing.

 

[credulous]

One of the primary things a rebuilding team does with those built up future assets is flip them for pro roster players at the appropriate time. How do you think guys like Timo Meier or Jakob Chychrun get traded? This is specifically related to Hronek, the timing looks weird because Jim Benning messed things up but it's essentially the same thing.

sure, but meier was added to a team featuring hughes, hischier, bratt, hamilton, marino, siegenthaler, severson, graves, hughes... and chychrun was added to a team featuring stutzle, tkachuk, debrincat, giroux, batherson, chabot, zub, sanderson...

vancouver, charitably, have pettersson, kuzmenko, miller and hughes in that kind of category. vancouver needs to be in asset accumulation mode, not 'buy the last missing piece' mode

 

[Diogenes92]

This is getting so dumb.. even dumber than it was months ago

The quick rebuildish whatever word it is relies on as much hope dreams luck garbage as the retool on the fly is getting painted as needing - if not more.

Yep. Tanking this season and getting a top 3 pick would've been such a terrible strategy. Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson...

And thats only if they had put some effort into taking a step back for even just one year. How meaningful would one of those guys be? Way more than any garbage plan they have this off season.

The recycled retool plan is a much smarter approach....

 

[andora]

Yep. Tanking this season and getting a top 3 pick would've been such a terrible strategy. Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson...

And thats only if they had put some effort into taking a step back for even just one year. How meaningful would one of those guys be? Way more than any garbage plan they have this off season.

The recycled retool plan is a much smarter approach....

Dont mix up stories.. i didnt say that

Now its one year.. one player. All we want is one player.. we could still get it.

 

[Diogenes92]

Dont mix up stories.. i didnt say that

Now its one year.. one player. All we want is one player.. we could still get it.

Its not really a mixup. Im talking about the "quick rebuild" vs "retool" comment you made and how its just as bad or worse than a retool.

Its not some dumb idea to think that a quick rebuild would be more effective than the status quo.

Having as much as a 25.5% chance at Bedard sounds a lot better than 3%.

Get Bedard, and the retool plan actually becomes legitimate.

 

[Jyrki21]

It’s easy for you to assume they are fine with it when they are the one going through it.
You guys keep on assuming that oh it’s just a quick step back as if that is actually true. Have any of you guys ever taken the time to really think through how quick is quick?

Like why would they be fine sucking ass for like 4 more years when they can just force their way out like Tkachuk and go to a better team right away? It’s not like sucking for 4 more years would guarantee that the team is going to be good, you miss on a couple of draft picks then 4 years then into 5 and then 6.

Again, no one's asking for 4 more years (not the people hoping to keep the star players, anyway), just actually thinking beyond trying to win every game immediately. Having properly used this past, wasted season to build the prospect pool or gain flexibility would just have resulted in far better results from a 100% sunk cost. Hell, as others have pointed out, getting a star from the 2023 draft class would probably have had more short-term impact, let alone long-term impact, than whatever they're about to do this summer. I'm sure the players can recognize that.

The players want the team to get better, do they not? If they think that means never thinking more than 10 minutes into the future, they're part of the problem.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It’s easy for you to assume they are fine with it when they are the one going through it.
You guys keep on assuming that oh it’s just a quick step back as if that is actually true. Have any of you guys ever taken the time to really think through how quick is quick?

Like why would they be fine sucking ass for like 4 more years when they can just force their way out like Tkachuk and go to a better team right away? It’s not like sucking for 4 more years would guarantee that the team is going to be good, you miss on a couple of draft picks then 4 years then into 5 and then 6.

Unlike your side who just know what they think.