Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[arttk]

Again, no one's asking for 4 more years (not the people hoping to keep the star players, anyway), just actually thinking beyond trying to win every game immediately. Having properly used this past, wasted season to build the prospect pool or gain flexibility would just have resulted in far better results from a 100% sunk cost. Hell, as others have pointed out, getting a star from the 2023 draft class would probably have had more short-term impact, let alone long-term impact, than whatever they're about to do this summer. I'm sure the players can recognize that.

The players want the team to get better, do they not? If they think that means never thinking more than 10 minutes into the future, they're part of the problem.

I don’t think we were as bad as a bottom 3 team so unless we did some serious dismantling it’s hard to get to that level of suckage. And if you dismantle, then it’s going to take a lot longer for you to rebuild the team. Like you don’t just magically replace Miller(ppg), Horvat(60pt), Kuz(70pt) guy just like that.

I too wished that we finished much much much worse than where we ultimate ended up with but i think players like Petey wouldn’t just willingly give up. Like hitting a 100 point probably meant a lot for Petey, financially and personally. I think if you tell the players hey, you guys need to play like shit so we can get a top 3 pick, they are going to tell you to go f*** yourself, especially considering how many players on the team are young and don’t have a long term contract. I think there is also a good argument that Tocchet had to coach because nobody would respect him if he coached to tank and you can’t walk back from that.

I wished the f***ing media didn’t make a big deal about BB and we kept him for like 2-3 weeks more. That would’ve probably ensure us drafting much higher but f***ing media does f***ing media shit.

Unlike your side who just know what they think.

Yeah I am sure pro athletes just love being losers. That’s how they are wired right? I mean that’s what got them to the best league in the world, by being good losers right? Never mind the fact we have Peter? Hughes and Demko going on record on how much they hate losing. But hey, you must know right?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yeah I am sure pro athletes just love being losers. That’s how they are wired right? I mean that’s what got them to the best league in the world, by being good losers right? Never mind the fact we have Peter? Hughes and Demko going on record on how much they hate losing. But hey, you must know right?

What if they are not fooled by the short sighted moves this management has done?

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

Do people not realize that a rebuild at this point would take way more luck replacing Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller, Kuzmenko, Hronek, Boeser than a retool? We could literally rebuild the next 8 years and not even replace Pettersson and Hughes in that time frame.

Retooling from a competent management is way different than a Benning special trying to save his bacon. We have a young enough team where we could trade a couple first rounders for help now and still be able to rebuild the Prospect pool.

The PTSD Benning has left most of the fanbase is so sad. There was no possible scenario where Bedard or the top 4 was a reality other than winning the draft lottery, that we are in still. Finishing 8th was 6% odds and 11th is 3% odds, in both spots we are relying on dumb luck.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Do people not realize that a rebuild at this point would take way more luck replacing Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller, Kuzmenko, Hronek, Boeser than a retool? We could literally rebuild the next 8 years and not even replace Pettersson and Hughes in that time frame.

Retooling from a competent management is way different than a Benning special trying to save his bacon. We have a young enough team where we could trade a couple first rounders for help now and still be able to rebuild the Prospect pool.

The PTSD Benning has left most of the fanbase is so sad. There was no possible scenario where Bedard or the top 4 was a reality other than winning the draft lottery, that we are in still. Finishing 8th was 6% odds and 11th is 3% odds, in both spots we are relying on dumb luck.

You really kicked that strawman's ass.

Benning PTSD has lowered the standards for so many people here. Being a bubble team for a short while is now an acceptable goal...


1. Rebuild does not have to involve losing Pettersson and Hughes. At least did not have to if our management correctly identified the state of the team and started the heavy lifting when they came here.

2. Can take advantage of other teams trying to compete right now because we have one commodity they do not. Time.

3. We don't need to have players as good as EP, QH, Demko etc. We just need to have a better overall team as a result of the rebuild.

 

[valkynax]

Do people not realize that a rebuild at this point would take way more luck replacing Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Miller, Kuzmenko, Hronek, Boeser than a retool? We could literally rebuild the next 8 years and not even replace Pettersson and Hughes in that time frame.

Retooling from a competent management is way different than a Benning special trying to save his bacon. We have a young enough team where we could trade a couple first rounders for help now and still be able to rebuild the Prospect pool.

The PTSD Benning has left most of the fanbase is so sad. There was no possible scenario where Bedard or the top 4 was a reality other than winning the draft lottery, that we are in still. Finishing 8th was 6% odds and 11th is 3% odds, in both spots we are relying on dumb luck.

Competent management, do Alv and Moleman qualify? I have serious doubts about that.

They did some good things, like signing Kuzmenko and trading Horvat, but then they also traded away premium picks for an injured Hronek and spent cap up the ASS and then complained about not having enough caps. I would've actually cut them a bit more slack had these two greasy Brooklyn bridge salesmen NOT talked like gangsters every single time they open their goddamn mouths.

In my eyes, I'm ready to label them as a pair of putrid, gutless fraudsters. But, through a more reasonable lens, the jury is still out, for the most part. Will they actually get off their lazy asses and do some work, or will they once again be all bark and no bite? Let's find out, I guess?

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I don’t think we were as bad as a bottom 3 team so unless we did some serious dismantling it’s hard to get to that level of suckage. And if you dismantle, then it’s going to take a lot longer for you to rebuild the team. Like you don’t just magically replace Miller(ppg), Horvat(60pt), Kuz(70pt) guy just like that.

I too wished that we finished much much much worse than where we ultimate ended up with but i think players like Petey wouldn’t just willingly give up. Like hitting a 100 point probably meant a lot for Petey, financially and personally. I think if you tell the players hey, you guys need to play like shit so we can get a top 3 pick, they are going to tell you to go f*** yourself, especially considering how many players on the team are young and don’t have a long term contract. I think there is also a good argument that Tocchet had to coach because nobody would respect him if he coached to tank and you can’t walk back from that.

I wished the f***ing media didn’t make a big deal about BB and we kept him for like 2-3 weeks more. That would’ve probably ensure us drafting much higher but f***ing media does f***ing media shit.


Yeah I am sure pro athletes just love being losers. That’s how they are wired right? I mean that’s what got them to the best league in the world, by being good losers right? Never mind the fact we have Peter? Hughes and Demko going on record on how much they hate losing. But hey, you must know right?

Who is actually saying this though? Nobody is telling Petey Hughes Demko etc to "play like shit." What people are suggesting is maybe playing Petey 18 mins a night instead of 20+, Hughes 22-23 mins a night instead of 27+, Demko starts 55-60% of the games instead of 70%, and maybe throw a few of those mins to Pod/Kratsov/Studnicka/Aman/etc to see if they can contribute anything with those mins so you have an idea what to expect next season.

All people ask for is some foresight from coaching and management. Some long term planning. Instead of playing your 4 core guys to the ground like some desperate team in a playoff race, when clearly the team was all but mathematically out of it since December, why not just use this period as "training camps" to see what you have in the system? The byproduct is a higher pick too, what's not to like?

Again, nobody says "tell the players to play like shit", "shut down the core guys", "video game shit", etc. These are all fake arguments made up so you guys have something to be outraged about.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Who is actually saying this though? Nobody is telling Petey Hughes Demko etc to "play like shit." What people are suggesting is maybe playing Petey 18 mins a night instead of 20+, Hughes 22-23 mins a night instead of 27+, Demko starts 55-60% of the games instead of 70%, and maybe throw a few of those mins to Pod/Kratsov/Studnicka/Aman/etc to see if they can contribute anything with those mins so you have an idea what to expect next season.

All people ask for is some foresight from coaching and management. Some long term planning. Instead of playing your 4 core guys to the ground like some desperate team in a playoff race, when clearly the team was all but mathematically out of it since December, why not just use this period as "training camps" to see what you have in the system? The byproduct is a higher pick too, what's not to like?

Again, nobody says "tell the players to play like shit", "shut down the core guys", "video game shit", etc. These are all fake arguments made up so you guys have something to be outraged about.

Oh you mean video game things?

 

[andora]

Its not really a mixup. Im talking about the "quick rebuild" vs "retool" comment you made and how its just as bad or worse than a retool.

Its not some dumb idea to think that a quick rebuild would be more effective than the status quo.

Having as much as a 25.5% chance at Bedard sounds a lot better than 3%.

Get Bedard, and the retool plan actually becomes legitimate.

It is so out of touch thinking we could have outshitted the bottom 3 teams to get that percentage while keeping our good players

Our good players just by being good players won games

Start demko half dozen games less and take some minutes away from pettersson and hughes.. ok what else you got that would have cratered it

 

[arttk]

What if they are not fooled by the short sighted moves this management has done?

Then they are going to force a move and we will end up rebuilding anyways.

 

[arttk]

Who is actually saying this though? Nobody is telling Petey Hughes Demko etc to "play like shit." What people are suggesting is maybe playing Petey 18 mins a night instead of 20+, Hughes 22-23 mins a night instead of 27+, Demko starts 55-60% of the games instead of 70%, and maybe throw a few of those mins to Pod/Kratsov/Studnicka/Aman/etc to see if they can contribute anything with those mins so you have an idea what to expect next season.

All people ask for is some foresight from coaching and management. Some long term planning. Instead of playing your 4 core guys to the ground like some desperate team in a playoff race, when clearly the team was all but mathematically out of it since December, why not just use this period as "training camps" to see what you have in the system? The byproduct is a higher pick too, what's not to like?

Again, nobody says "tell the players to play like shit", "shut down the core guys", "video game shit", etc. These are all fake arguments made up so you guys have something to be outraged about.

I don’t agree with how much they played Petey, Hughes and Demko.

But then I don’t really think Kravstov and those other guys really earned their ice. Like they really didn’t and if you are running a meritocracy, it really makes no sense to give them more ice unless they are killing it in the time they are given. Look at Hirose, he killed it and they just fed him more and more.

Training camp is about the team learning the system, you still want to instill a culture where you earn your ice.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Then they are going to force a move and we will end up rebuilding anyways.

Would have been better to sell them on a 2-3 year plan to rebuild a long term contender around them. Oh well.

I don’t agree with how much they played Petey, Hughes and Demko.

But then I don’t really think Kravstov and those other guys really earned their ice. Like they really didn’t and if you are running a meritocracy, it really makes no sense to give them more ice unless they are killing it in the time they are given. Look at Hirose, he killed it and they just fed him more and more.

Training camp is about the team learning the system, you still want to instill a culture where you earn your ice.

They dont need to earn it at this point.

Put Garland on PP1 for 10 games to see how he does to pump his value.

Put Studnicka and Joshua on heavy PK duty for 5 games to find out if there is some value to be mined there.

Give Delia another 3 or 4 games to see if he is our backup for next year.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I don’t agree with how much they played Petey, Hughes and Demko.

But then I don’t really think Kravstov and those other guys really earned their ice. Like they really didn’t and if you are running a meritocracy, it really makes no sense to give them more ice unless they are killing it in the time they are given. Look at Hirose, he killed it and they just fed him more and more.

Training camp is about the team learning the system, you still want to instill a culture where you earn your ice.

I don't know if giving them another couple more minutes will completely wreck the "culture". Like are guys in the room really going to raise an eyebrow if Kratsov goes from 9mins a game to 11mins with a little more PP time? And its not just him, Podkolzin, Studnicka, Aman, etc would get some of those minutes too. If each of them get 1 minute per game more, you can play Petey and JTM 2 mins less per game each. Something like that isn't that out of line, and that alone won't wreck the culture I'm sure.

Honestly if you are running a team based on meritocracy, shouldn't Boeser be the first to get his minutes cut, instead of being chained to JTM and getting loads of PP1 time? What about Myers? OEL when healthy? Even JTM, in the first half of the season, should've be taken off PP1 and have his minutes slashed if ice time is assigned based solely on merits. Clearly at different stage of the season, your priority should change and the ice time allocation should be adjusted. Sticking strictly to meritocracy during garbage time is a waste of an opportunity for your team to evaluate the younger players in the system.

 

[arttk]

Would have been better to sell them on a 2-3 year plan to rebuild a long term contender around them. Oh well.


They dont need to earn it at this point.

Put Garland on PP1 for 10 games to see how he does to pump his value.

Put Studnicka and Joshua on heavy PK duty for 5 games to find out if there is some value to be mined there.

Give Delia another 3 or 4 games to see if he is our backup for next year.

There is no such thing as a 2-3 year rebuild plan. That’s like saying, hey we will trade Miller, Kuz and Horvat for picks and prospects and we will nail on every single one of those picks and prospects and in 3 years those 3 extra picks will replace those 3 guys and the prospects we get will also hit their maximum potential in 3 years and everything is going to be great. Shit like that just don’t happen. You miss on one or two of those picks and the prospects kinda stay stagnant like Lundvist then your rebuild timeline just got pushed back a year or two.

Ice time should always be earned if you are building a culture. If the coach is not hard now then players won’t treat him seriously.

 

[Vector]

They dont need to earn it at this point.

Put Garland on PP1 for 10 games to see how he does to pump his value.

Put Studnicka and Joshua on heavy PK duty for 5 games to find out if there is some value to be mined there.

Give Delia another 3 or 4 games to see if he is our backup for next year.

I don’t disagree with anything here but with Tocchet as coach Joshua had the 5th highest PK minutes on the team and third highest forward behind Miller & Pettersson. Under Boudreau he was 14th on the team. So his PK minutes were amped up significantly. Aman also saw a big jump.

It’s probably the only area where ice time distribution made any long-term sense, to me.

 

[arttk]

I don't know if giving them another couple more minutes will completely wreck the "culture". Like are guys in the room really going to raise an eyebrow if Kratsov goes from 9mins a game to 11mins with a little more PP time? And its not just him, Podkolzin, Studnicka, Aman, etc would get some of those minutes too. If each of them get 1 minute per game more, you can play Petey and JTM 2 mins less per game each. Something like that isn't that out of line, and that alone won't wreck the culture I'm sure.

Honestly if you are running a team based on meritocracy, shouldn't Boeser be the first to get his minutes cut, instead of being chained to JTM and getting loads of PP1 time? What about Myers? OEL when healthy? Even JTM, in the first half of the season, should've be taken off PP1 and have his minutes slashed if ice time is assigned based solely on merits. Clearly at different stage of the season, your priority should change and the ice time allocation should be adjusted. Sticking strictly to meritocracy during garbage time is a waste of an opportunity for your team to evaluate the younger players in the system.

Kravstov did get games with 11-12 min, he didn’t do anything with it. Hell it looked like he didn’t do anything regardless of how many minutes was given to him. Ditto with Studnicka and some other guys.

I don’t understand the treatment with Boeser. It’s super confusing. I wonder if they are 100% set on trading him so the mandate is not to coach him but to juice his usage to get him out of here.

I think in the context of trying to break the country club vibe, you do want to hold a hard line.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

sure, but meier was added to a team featuring hughes, hischier, bratt, hamilton, marino, siegenthaler, severson, graves, hughes... and chychrun was added to a team featuring stutzle, tkachuk, debrincat, giroux, batherson, chabot, zub, sanderson...

vancouver, charitably, have pettersson, kuzmenko, miller and hughes in that kind of category. vancouver needs to be in asset accumulation mode, not 'buy the last missing piece' mode

You think the Canucks only have four player "charitably" in the category of Artem Zub and Ryan Graves?

 

[credulous]

You think the Canucks only have four player "charitably" in the category of Artem Zub and Ryan Graves?

yeah?

who is the best canuck's skater after those four (and hronek, the context was the logic of making the hronek trade)?

mikheyev? garland? bear? those are depth guys on any competitive team

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Kravstov did get games with 11-12 min, he didn’t do anything with it. Hell it looked like he didn’t do anything regardless of how many minutes was given to him. Ditto with Studnicka and some other guys.

I don’t understand the treatment with Boeser. It’s super confusing. I wonder if they are 100% set on trading him so the mandate is not to coach him but to juice his usage to get him out of here.

I think in the context of trying to break the country club vibe, you do want to hold a hard line.

What I meant is regularly with games in the 11-12 minutes range for those guys. Playing them a game with 9mins, then next game 12mins, then scratch them for 2, then back in to start on Petey's line, that type of usage isn't helpful in terms of development. Podkolzin even said how he dwell on any mistakes he makes and it affects his play. You let young guys play through it if you can. Since we have so much garbage time this season, play Podkolzin 15mins a game with good linemates and PP2 usage, try him out on the PK, heck even try him as 3C and see if he can fill that hole for us. What do you have to lose?

I like what they did with Aman the last few games, play him 3C and even a game as 2C. I also like that they give Joshua more ice time late in the season and some PK time. Those are good development moves and now we know a little more about those players, so going into next season I don't mind them in the PK rotation, and maybe even move them up to 3rd line if needed. But we need more of those development opportunities for the other young guys.

You want to hold a hard line with the vets that are clearly just mailing it in, not kids that needs development and are trying to adapt to the top league and is going through growing pains.

 

[RandV]

yeah?

who is the best canuck's skater after those four (and hronek, the context was the logic of making the hronek trade)?

mikheyev? garland? bear? those are depth guys on any competitive team

Hronek is a guy that gets added to that level. It goes a bit sideways when you set a minimum 'level' as Vancouver has guys at the higher end, the Devils matchup but Ottawa doesn't. Because if you go a step lower Boeser/Garland/Mikheyev and maybe Beauvillier are still quality players who can score in the 45-60 point range.

 

[Diogenes92]

It is so out of touch thinking we could have outshitted the bottom 3 teams to get that percentage while keeping our good players

Our good players just by being good players won games

Start demko half dozen games less and take some minutes away from pettersson and hughes.. ok what else you got that would have cratered it

Sold some players at the deadline instead of buying. What any rebuilding team would do.

Miller for starters. Possibly Demko depending on the return.

Shut down a few of the players with minor nagging injuries.

Play Podkolzin, Krastov, Joshua, Aman, etc in way more minutes than they got.

Don't play Hughes into the ground with close to 30 minutes each night.

Lots of possibilities to weaken the team short-term as long as a rebuild is what's on the menu.

You do realize that the Canucks were the only team to buy that was anywhere close to the bottom of the standings? St. Louis, Detroit, Nashville all sold when they were above the Canucks in the standings at the time. It really is a sick joke.

 

[arttk]

What I meant is regularly with games in the 11-12 minutes range for those guys. Playing them a game with 9mins, then next game 12mins, then scratch them for 2, then back in to start on Petey's line, that type of usage isn't helpful in terms of development. Podkolzin even said how he dwell on any mistakes he makes and it affects his play. You let young guys play through it if you can. Since we have so much garbage time this season, play Podkolzin 15mins a game with good linemates and PP2 usage, try him out on the PK, heck even try him as 3C and see if he can fill that hole for us. What do you have to lose?

I like what they did with Aman the last few games, play him 3C and even a game as 2C. I also like that they give Joshua more ice time late in the season and some PK time. Those are good development moves and now we know a little more about those players, so going into next season I don't mind them in the PK rotation, and maybe even move them up to 3rd line if needed. But we need more of those development opportunities for the other young guys.

You want to hold a hard line with the vets that are clearly just mailing it in, not kids that needs development and are trying to adapt to the top league and is going through growing pains.

I don’t know why you are griping about Krav and the other guys not getting minutes when we have seen Aman, Joshua and PDG’s mins go up deservedly.

It’s obvious the coach’s philosophy is, you play your role well in your mins and you will get more. A lot of the guys were really anonymous so giving them more minutes doesn’t make sense. I really don’t think it makes sense to just give Krav or Pod like 12-15 min a game regardless of how they play. Honestly they barely did anything in the minutes they played and giving them minutes over guys who earned more doesn’t bloody make sense. I don’t think it does that much to their development as well, like we should instill a baseline where you work hard every shift and you couldn’t argue that they were.

 

[credulous]

Hronek is a guy that gets added to that level. It goes a bit sideways when you set a minimum 'level' as Vancouver has guys at the higher end, the Devils matchup but Ottawa doesn't. Because if you go a step lower Boeser/Garland/Mikheyev and maybe Beauvillier are still quality players who can score in the 45-60 point range.

i just don't agree that vancouver's high end is that much better than ottawa or jersey. you are free to like pettersson and hughes more than stutzle and chabot or hughes and hamilton but there isn't nearly as much distance between those pairs as you think

boeser, garland, mikheyev and beauvillier are closer to shane pinto, erik haula and dawson mercer than any of the players i listed

 

[andora]

Sold some players at the deadline instead of buying. What any rebuilding team would do.

Miller for starters. Possibly Demko depending on the return.

Shut down a few of the players with minor nagging injuries.

Play Podkolzin, Krastov, Joshua, Aman, etc in way more minutes than they got.

Don't play Hughes into the ground with close to 30 minutes each night.

Lots of possibilities to weaken the team short-term as long as a rebuild is what's on the menu.

You do realize that the Canucks were the only team to buy that was anywhere close to the bottom of the standings? St. Louis, Detroit, Nashville all sold when they were above the Canucks in the standings at the time. It really is a sick joke.

So moving out 2c and 1g is setting up for a quick one even if it was just this one year? As you referenced earlier - just this one year

So we would need 2 and 3c and now a goalie good enough to start.. nevermind an arguably top 10 in the game. That just extended it a couple years in my opinion.

Who wasnt shut down that was hurt? Guys did get shut down.

And i dont care if they were the only team to do what they did.. which to me was parlaying a too expensive 3c into three assets

 

[Nucker101]

For the quick re-took bros, what’s a realistic path to contention in your eyes?

Honest question.

If it starts with video game shit like get Aquillini to buyout OEL and dump our cap problems to Arizona then you’ve already lost me

 

[RandV]

Who is actually saying this though? Nobody is telling Petey Hughes Demko etc to "play like shit." What people are suggesting is maybe playing Petey 18 mins a night instead of 20+, Hughes 22-23 mins a night instead of 27+, Demko starts 55-60% of the games instead of 70%, and maybe throw a few of those mins to Pod/Kratsov/Studnicka/Aman/etc to see if they can contribute anything with those mins so you have an idea what to expect next season.

The coach basically belongs in the same category as the players. They have a much shorter shelf life than GM's do and aren't going to intentionally 'throw' games. It still boggles my mind that people think this is something that can be done. A GM has some control as they can move players out for futures, but once you hit the ice it falls the old battle adage: no plan survives first contact with an enemy.

Also I think people are greatly over exaggerating the excessive riding of Pettersson/Hughes/Demko down the stretch. When you take those higher minutes listed you're probably mostly getting those from OT games where Petey & Hughes will add 1-2 minutes of ice time to their total. Otherwise it's not like they're being played 25/30 minutes respectively in regulation, they're just getting the same ice time as other elite players do. And I think people are kind of grasping for straws if you get to the point where the suggestion is to lose games by cutting a couple shifts from our two best players.