Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[sandwichbird2023]

I don’t know why you are griping about Krav and the other guys not getting minutes when we have seen Aman, Joshua and PDG’s mins go up deservedly.

It’s obvious the coach’s philosophy is, you play your role well in your mins and you will get more. A lot of the guys were really anonymous so giving them more minutes doesn’t make sense. I really don’t think it makes sense to just give Krav or Pod like 12-15 min a game regardless of how they play. Honestly they barely did anything in the minutes they played and giving them minutes over guys who earned more doesn’t bloody make sense. I don’t think it does that much to their development as well, like we should instill a baseline where you work hard every shift and you couldn’t argue that they were.

"Regardless of how they play." Really?

So you don't think getting more than 4th line minutes and more chances on offensive situation (like PP), is good for development for offensive prospects like Podkolzin and Kratsov?

You believe every young players should just step in and be great like Petey and Hughes, and if not then they get buried down the lineup during garbage time?

You think depth guys like PDG's deployment should be prioritized over our one of only few highly regarded prospect like Podkolzin?

You see the minutes that Myers and Boeser gets and you think this is a coach that allocate ice time based on merit?

I'm not saying "giving them minutes over guys who earned more", I'm saying take a couple mins off Petey and JTM and give it to these guys and see what they can do with it. And honestly, who are these guys that "earned more"? Dries? PDG? BOESER!?!?!? In the long run, who is more important to the organization, those guys or Podkolzin?

 

[racerjoe]

So moving out 2c and 1g is setting up for a quick one even if it was just this one year? As you referenced earlier - just this one year

So we would need 2 and 3c and now a goalie good enough to start.. nevermind an arguably top 10 in the game. That just extended it a couple years in my opinion.

Who wasnt shut down that was hurt? Guys did get shut down.

And i dont care if they were the only team to do what they did.. which to me was parlaying a too expensive 3c into three assets

Its a stupid argument that has proven to be wrong... we sold our top goal scorer, and a best RHD. We shut down a few players, took our time bringing Demko back. All of it is just wrong, and people don't want to admit it even after being shown this because the team did well down the stretch from a soft schedule, and being better than the 5th worst we were at after terrible goaltending and a hard schedule made us look worse than we were.

 

[Diogenes92]

So moving out 2c and 1g is setting up for a quick one even if it was just this one year? As you referenced earlier - just this one year

So we would need 2 and 3c and now a goalie good enough to start.. nevermind an arguably top 10 in the game. That just extended it a couple years in my opinion.

Who wasnt shut down that was hurt? Guys did get shut down.

And i dont care if they were the only team to do what they did.. which to me was parlaying a too expensive 3c into three assets

The short term rebuild was being talked about as 2 to 3 years originally.

But if Bedard is on the menu, even one year would've been nice.

Miller is too old for the core. I dont care if it takes a couple years to replace him. His contract will start to suck a lot soon.

Demko's injuries concern me. And goalies aren't the most important asset when it comes to winning a cup. Look at a list of recent Stanley cup winners...

Vasilevsky is the only one that could be considered top flight.

Do you really believe that some of the roster players weren't playing through minor injuries at the end of the season? There's no chance they weren't. It doesn't matter if it wasn't reported.

You're worried about replacing C depth when the top of this upcoming draft has some of the best C prospects in years.

I don't know why I bother to debate the retool crowd anyways. I should know better. We have opinions on the team that will never match up until reality forces them to.

 

[andora]

Its a stupid argument that has proven to be wrong... we sold our top goal scorer, and a best RHD. We shut down a few players, took our time bringing Demko back. All of it is just wrong, and people don't want to admit it even after being shown this because the team did well down the stretch from a soft schedule, and being better than the 5th worst we were at after terrible goaltending and a hard schedule made us look worse than we were.

I dont think its wrong it just doesnt have the merit versus what we are doing relative to the amount of luck would be needed to pull it off - equal to the amount of luck we need to pull off what we are doing if not more

 

[sandwichbird2023]

The coach basically belongs in the same category as the players. They have a much shorter shelf life than GM's do and aren't going to intentionally 'throw' games. It still boggles my mind that people think this is something that can be done. A GM has some control as they can move players out for futures, but once you hit the ice it falls the old battle adage: no plan survives first contact with an enemy.

Also I think people are greatly over exaggerating the excessive riding of Pettersson/Hughes/Demko down the stretch. When you take those higher minutes listed you're probably mostly getting those from OT games where Petey & Hughes will add 1-2 minutes of ice time to their total. Otherwise it's not like they're being played 25/30 minutes respectively in regulation, they're just getting the same ice time as other elite players do. And I think people are kind of grasping for straws if you get to the point where the suggestion is to lose games by cutting a couple shifts from our two best players.

I thought management and coach are now "aligned"? So the management fought tooth and nail to get "their guy" and then just let him do his thing for his own self interest?

"No plan survives first contact with an enemy" sounds like just a different way to say "no plans at all", a great way to build a winning hockey team. I guess that is a pretty accurate way to describe this management team, actually.

 

[racerjoe]

I dont think its wrong it just doesnt have the merit versus what we are doing relative to the amount of luck would be needed to pull it off - equal to the amount of luck we need to pull off what we are doing if not more

It is wrong, when we did sell. It is wrong when we did shut players down and bring them back slowly. It is wrong when Demko's workload is a normal starter work load. I get the general point and understand what people wanted, but the talking points are actually wrong.

 

[Diogenes92]

Its a stupid argument that has proven to be wrong... we sold our top goal scorer, and a best RHD. We shut down a few players, took our time bringing Demko back. All of it is just wrong, and people don't want to admit it even after being shown this because the team did well down the stretch from a soft schedule, and being better than the 5th worst we were at after terrible goaltending and a hard schedule made us look worse than we were.

What a dumb thing to say.

Best RHD? LOL. Schenn is a reolacement level #5 or 6 on his absolute best day.

They should've traded more aging top players. Shouldn't have stopped at Horvat.

They tried their absolute hardest to win games down the stretch. It was a sad and pathetic show.

They overplayed their top guys because the roster isn't good enough and doesn't have any depth. They brought Hronek in when he should've been shut down without any games. They played Demko a ridiculous amount after he came back from a brutal injury.

It is wrong, when we did sell. It is wrong when we did shut players down and bring them back slowly. It is wrong when Demko's workload is a normal starter work load. I get the general point and understand what people wanted, but the talking points are actually wrong.

Just give up dude. You're the one that is twisting facts to suit your argument.

We "sold" Horvat only to go ahead and "buy" with the assets that we aquired. Its a washout.

Demko's workload would've been fine for a team competing for the playoffs and for a goalie that didn't suffer a horrible injury earlier in the season.

We shutdown Mihkeyev after playing him in a crap load of meaningless games with a frekaing torn ACL...

 

[andora]

The short term rebuild was being talked about as 2 to 3 years originally.

But if Bedard is on the menu, even one year would've been nice.

Miller is too old for the core. I dont care if it takes a couple years to replace him. His contract will start to suck a lot soon.

Demko's injuries concern me. And goalies aren't the most important asset when it comes to winning a cup. Look at a list of recent Stanley cup winners...

Vasilevsky is the only one that could be considered top flight.

Do you really believe that some of the roster players weren't playing through minor injuries at the end of the season? There's no chance they weren't. It doesn't matter if it wasn't reported.

You're worried about replacing C depth when the top of this upcoming draft has some of the best C prospects in years.

I don't know why I bother to debate the retool crowd anyways. I should know better. We have opinions on the team that will never match up until reality forces them to.

You veered off again.. i was simply responding to your comment for even just this one year - which then included trading 2 of our 4 best players and then morphed into a 2 to 3 year again

Re: millers contract. It is as resonable to see him as a good player for the next 4 to 5 years WITH versatility to move to the wing as it is to simply say his contract is going to suck. We have 4 years of criteria now of miller producing

Re: goaltending. Outside of kuemper all teams got legit goaltending..top stuff. Because some didnt have the longevity is different than how a guy has to play for a team to win

Re injuries: obviously none bad enough to shut a guy down over.. nor bad enough to visually affect guys games

Re reality: its kinda likewise

What a dumb thing to say.

Best RHD? LOL. Schenn is a reolacement level #5 or 6 on his absolute best day.

They should've traded more aging top players. Shouldn't have stopped at Horvat.

They tried their absolute hardest to win games down the stretch. It was a sad and pathetic show.

They overplayed their top guys because the roster isn't good enough and doesn't have any depth. They brought Hronek in when he should've been shut down without any games. They played Demko a ridiculous amount after he came back from a brutal injury.


Just give up dude. You're the one that is twisting facts to suit your argument.

We "sold" Horvat only to go ahead and "buy" with the assets that we aquired. Its a washout.

Demko's workload would've been fine for a team competing for the playoffs and for a goalie that didn't suffer a horrible injury earlier in the season.

We shutdown Mihkeyev after playing him in a crap load of meaningless games with a frekaing torn ACL...

What other aging top players should have been moved.. miller i assume, anyone else?

 

[Diogenes92]

You veered off again.. i was simply responding to your comment for even just this one year - which then included trading 2 of our 4 best players and then morphed into a 2 to 3 year again

Re: millers contract. It is as resonable to see him as a good player for the next 4 to 5 years WITH versatility to move to the wing as it is to simply say his contract is going to suck. We have 4 years of criteria now of miller producing

Re: goaltending. Outside of kuemper all teams got legit goaltending..top stuff. Because some didnt have the longevity is different than how a guy has to play for a team to win

Re injuries: obviously none bad enough to shut a guy down over.. nor bad enough to visually affect guys games

Re reality: its kinda likewise


What other aging top players should have been moved.. miller i assume, anyone else?

I did mention that a one year rebuild would be better than nothing in the same post. But originally I was talking about 2 to 3 years. Dont see why that's such a sticking point.

I think we can agree to disagree that Miller will be effective for half of his new deal. I'd argue maybe 2 years before we see a decline. He's 30 and not getting any younger. Its reasonable to say that he has already played the best hockey of his career.

Murray, Binnington, Crawford... never were top flight goalies. They got hot at the right times. They played behind stacked rosters. Holtby was a bit better, but still not top flight imo.

The injuries thing is just me making a point that over an 82 game season, injuries happen and if management had wanted to use those as an excuse to weaken the roster, they could've.

Yes. Miller, possibly Demko, any player 28 and older, really. I think its important to note that I was on the trade Kuzmenko train before they resigned him. The value that he would've returned on his entry level contract would've been huge.

I don't see the Canucks competing for a cup anytime soon. Trade players while they still have value.

 

[andora]

I did mention that a one year rebuild would be better than nothing in the same post. But originally I was talking about 2 to 3 years. Dont see why that's such a sticking point.

I think we can agree to disagree that Miller will be effective for half of his new deal. I'd argue maybe 2 years before we see a decline. He's 30 and not getting any younger. Its reasonable to say that he has already played the best hockey of his career.

Murray, Binnington, Crawford... never were top flight goalies. They got hot at the right times. They played behind stacked rosters. Holtby was a bit better, but still not top flight imo.

The injuries thing is just me making a point that over an 82 game season, injuries happen and if management had wanted to use those as an excuse to weaken the roster, they could've.

Yes. Miller, possibly Demko, any player 28 and older, really. I think its important to note that I was on the trade Kuzmenko train before they resigned him. The value that he would've returned on his entry level contract would've been huge.

I don't see the Canucks competing for a cup anytime soon. Trade players while they still have value.

Actually.. let me take a step back. Utilizing the 2-3 yr thing.. after year 3 what is the intent to where the team should be?

1. Be above .500
2. Make the playoffs
3. Threat to win multiple rounds
4. Be a contender

 

[arttk]

"Regardless of how they play." Really?

So you don't think getting more than 4th line minutes and more chances on offensive situation (like PP), is good for development for offensive prospects like Podkolzin and Kratsov?

You believe every young players should just step in and be great like Petey and Hughes, and if not then they get buried down the lineup during garbage time?

You think depth guys like PDG's deployment should be prioritized over our one of only few highly regarded prospect like Podkolzin?

You see the minutes that Myers and Boeser gets and you think this is a coach that allocate ice time based on merit?

I'm not saying "giving them minutes over guys who earned more", I'm saying take a couple mins off Petey and JTM and give it to these guys and see what they can do with it. And honestly, who are these guys that "earned more"? Dries? PDG? BOESER!?!?!? In the long run, who is more important to the organization, those guys or Podkolzin?

Krav was a regular on the PP2 when he was playing. If you didn’t notice that then that should tell you something right?

Krav was already getting the soft minutes, I mean if he can’t do anything against the other team’s 4th liners then why would you rationalize that he will do more with more minutes?

Petey and Miller’s minute looks high because they are both on PP1 and PK1. I just looked at the data and it looks like Petey averages 5:30 a game playing PK and PP.
in terms of ice time, pod averages like 11:50 and 99% of that is even ice. Krav averages like 10:50 with us and he has like 1min of pp time per game so that’s like 9:50 of even ice. Looking at even ice usage, the high point seems to be 15 minutes for Petey and then low point is like Krav who gets around 10. I am not sure how you can give Krav and Pod essentially 1st line ice time if they are not cutting it with soft usage. sure you can five Pod and Krav like a minute or two more but that’s really like 2-4 shifts, are we really bickering over omg, wasted opportunities by not giving them like 2-4 more shifts a game?

dries doesn’t really play that much, his ice time is like 10-12 minutes. Aman actually gets more ice time than Dries probably because he PKs.

 

[Diogenes92]

Actually.. let me take a step back. Utilizing the 2-3 yr thing.. after year 3 what is the intent to where the team should be?

1. Be above .500
2. Make the playoffs
3. Threat to win multiple rounds
4. Be a contender

I think #2 is a given. #3 if they do everything right.

That's if they sell high on assets and build top prospect depth. Allow for their younger players to step into bigger roles and build a new culture within the team that isn't poisoned from the disastrous Benning era.

A lot of this relied upon them sucking this year and getting a top 3 pick...so my plan is sort of already ruined. Unless they somehow win a lottery ball.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

There is no such thing as a 2-3 year rebuild plan. That’s like saying, hey we will trade Miller, Kuz and Horvat for picks and prospects and we will nail on every single one of those picks and prospects and in 3 years those 3 extra picks will replace those 3 guys and the prospects we get will also hit their maximum potential in 3 years and everything is going to be great. Shit like that just don’t happen. You miss on one or two of those picks and the prospects kinda stay stagnant like Lundvist then your rebuild timeline just got pushed back a year or two.

Ice time should always be earned if you are building a culture. If the coach is not hard now then players won’t treat him seriously.

Ok.

I think they should have RETOOLED around Pettersson and Hughes.

Check mate, atheist.

 

[Gstank]

What time is the press conference again?

 

[Vector]

What time is the press conference again?

12:30pm

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don’t disagree with anything here but with Tocchet as coach Joshua had the 5th highest PK minutes on the team and third highest forward behind Miller & Pettersson. Under Boudreau he was 14th on the team. So his PK minutes were amped up significantly. Aman also saw a big jump.

It’s probably the only area where ice time distribution made any long-term sense, to me.

I would have made him the no.1 guy on PK for 5 games.

What time is the press conference again?

I've missed this.

12:30pm

What is coming?

 

[andora]

I think #2 is a given. #3 if they do everything right.

That's if they sell high on assets and build top prospect depth. Allow for their younger players to step into bigger roles and build a new culture within the team that isn't poisoned from the disastrous Benning era.

A lot of this relied upon them sucking this year and getting a top 3 pick...so my plan is sort of already ruined. Unless they somehow win a lottery ball.

So after 2 to 3 yrs.. who is left on the roster to push for multiple round expectation.. if in fact miller was traded.. and demko was for the right package

Lol.. what lineup can you project.. even if it is just

Kuzmenko / pettersson / mikheyev
Joshua / kid / garland

Like seriously.. can you project it? Even by saying kid or ufa? Who else was traded in this

What is coming?

Shit winds

 

[Vector]

What is coming?

Standard end of year media availability. Will have Allvin and Tocchet.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Standard end of year media availability. Will have Allvin and Tocchet.

Ah right.

Wont expect to learn anything.

 

[arttk]

Ok.

I think they should have RETOOLED around Pettersson and Hughes.

Check mate, atheist.

I am agnostic, not decided if I am actually atheist.

 

[Gurn]

Trade bait?

anyone- if the offer is right.
But more likely anyone not named
Hughes
Demko
E.P.

The Canuck bottom 2 forward lines, and the bottom 3-4 depth d men, easily replaceable during the off season, and at waiver wire time next year; when the good teams need to release players.
since our low tier players are not worth much, not much return is expected; but something is better than watching guys like Burroughs and Delia walk for free.

Anyone that won't be on the team 3 years into the future should be moved, if at all possible.

 

[wonton15]

Allvin is the master of zero substance media availabilities. I suspect we’ll come out of it knowing less than we do now

 

[racerjoe]

What a dumb thing to say.

Best RHD? LOL. Schenn is a reolacement level #5 or 6 on his absolute best day.

They should've traded more aging top players. Shouldn't have stopped at Horvat.

They tried their absolute hardest to win games down the stretch. It was a sad and pathetic show.

They overplayed their top guys because the roster isn't good enough and doesn't have any depth. They brought Hronek in when he should've been shut down without any games. They played Demko a ridiculous amount after he came back from a brutal injury.


Just give up dude. You're the one that is twisting facts to suit your argument.

We "sold" Horvat only to go ahead and "buy" with the assets that we aquired. Its a washout.

Demko's workload would've been fine for a team competing for the playoffs and for a goalie that didn't suffer a horrible injury earlier in the season.

We shutdown Mihkeyev after playing him in a crap load of meaningless games with a frekaing torn ACL...

I am twisting facts? We sold Horvat... but but but... If you want to include the Hronek part of that it still isn't a wash, and we got younger... but go on... tell me how I am the one twisting facts.

Who would you have sold... I know you keep saying Miller, but who else? We didn't really have any other UFA's of worth besides who we sold.

Yes we shut down an injured player... you don't not shut down healthy ones... unless you are trading them, and we kind of did that with Miller, so who else would you have shut down?

Its been shown we played our guys our top guys the same and even less than say Ottawa played their guys. It was shown OT games skewed numbers, it was shown TOI was inaccurate do to number of games left at the time. It was shown Demko played at the pace you would like him to play next season. But yes I am twisting.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I am agnostic, not decided if I am actually atheist.

Check mate, agnostic. Doesn't quite have the same ring...

But it will have to do.

 

[Diogenes92]

So after 2 to 3 yrs.. who is left on the roster to push for multiple round expectation.. if in fact miller was traded.. and demko was for the right package

Lol.. what lineup can you project.. even if it is just

Kuzmenko / pettersson / mikheyev
Joshua / kid / garland

Like seriously.. can you project it? Even by saying kid or ufa? Who else was traded in this


Shit winds

Hoglander, Podkolzin, Boeser, Bedard/Carlsson/Fantilli, whatever high draft picks they accumlated via trade and placement for 2 years.

People really underestimate the impact of a young top centre ala Beniers.

Its no worse than what we have now. But people try their hardest to avoid that.