Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[Gurn]

At this point I think a poll should be made and the results should be posted in the 'terms of agreement' part of the sign up procedure.

Please clarify and set in stone the EXACT meaning of:
Rebuild
Retool
Re do
Re focus

re re re.

Until those terms are actually agreed to, there is too much grey area.
All those words seem to mean something different to so many of the posters.
So much pointless bickering because 1 poster thinks a rebuild means 5-6 years, but the guy he's mad at believes rebuild means 4-5 years.
3-4 years is it a 'quick rebuild' or is it a long re-tool. perhaps it is just a re-focus?

Carve the meaning of these words in stone somewhere; should reduce some of the angst.

 

[andora]

You don't tank when you have multiple mid-20s superstar players.

Well.. what if it's just a quick one.. 1, 2 years tops i promise

 

[arttk]

They attempted to win with that Naslund-Bertuzzi-Baldy team. They failed. Drafted high. Traded picks and current players to position in that draft. Liquidation. That's a rebuild, in a sense. Instead of getting a player with the pick, they targeted the draft by expending a player.

COL: That's the issue with looping a downturn of a rebuild as being a part of the rebuild itself. Did they prioritize the draft that year, or no?

Uhhh we attempted to win when we first got that f***ing bald guy but like a season in it was full on everything is on fire mode. Like Bure demanding a trade and etc. like 98-99 was peak everything is on fire in Canucks land. The trade for Bert is not even like a trade to start a rebuild, it was done to get rid of Linden due to the clash with that f***ing bald dickhead.

Re:Col, I mean almost every player they had slumped hard that year. Plus they were still in the process of an actual rebuild that has not finished yet. Like I said, different part of the cycle compared to us.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

There is a difference between things that should happen and that any normal team would have done but were blocked by dumb ownership and things that would never happen with any ownership group in place.

No team, ever, is going to be sitting with players the calibre of Hughes/Pettersson/Demko at the end of nearly a decade of purgatory and say 'Hey, actually, our defense looks a bit crap. Let's trade those guys and intentionally suck for another 6 years!'



This is literally like half of the posts on this board right now.

People want the plan that should have been executed better in 2016 to be executed now in 2023 and the situations are just not the same. That ship has sailed. You don't tank when you have multiple mid-20s superstar players.

Who is actually saying this!? Also "our defense looks a bit crap" is quite an understatement, but I'm sure you already know that.

Also, who decide the difference between "things that should happen" and "things that would never happen"? You? Our owner, the guy that has shown to have such great hockey knowledge?

You keep insisting that we can't "hold back our stars" and justify their ice time during garbage time so Petey and Hughes has to play their insane minutes. Since March 4th, when the team was clearly out of the playoff race, Petey has over 20mins of ice time in 15 out of 20 games, with 11 of them over 22 minutes. That is an insane amount for ice time for a forward, which include starting most of the PK. Look at Tage Thompson, in that same time frame he has 3 games out of 17 with over 20mins of ice time, with only 1 game over 22mins. Are the Sabres "holding him back from leveling up"?

Also from March 4th on, Hughes has over 24mins in 18 of his last 20 games, exceeding 28mins 8 times. Dahlin has over 24 mins in 15 of his last 21 games, exceeding 28mins just 3 times. Are the Sabres also holding him back too?

Sabres must be playing video game there, as they are one of the few teams less successful than us in the last few years, yet clearly not making as big a push to jump up in the standing during garbage time. Should we be expecting Thompson and Dahlin to quit the Sabres some time soon?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Mackinnon and Rantanen were 20 and 21 during that season. They clearly had a long time to build around those guys and those players had zero leverage to force themselves out. It's not even a remotely similar situation.

I have no idea what you're even talking about with the WCE-Sedins tank comment.

Thinking that Pettersson/Hughes/Demko will still be here in 2-3 years if we do a tank for that length of time is absolutely video game theory/a drug addled fantasy. Hughes might because of his contract. The other guys absolutely will not. And it's ludicrous to think they will be, and posting detailed plans under that assumption is just a waste of everyone's time.

These players have leverage. They aren't happy with losing. They want zero part of a multi-year tank, and will force their way out if that happens. And recent media reports confirm that.

If Pettersson signs a contract this offseason, then the same reason you gave for Hughes maybe being around for a 2 year rebuild (not tank, please use the same terminology) can be applied to Pettersson as well. That's how thin your line is here.

The VAN team prior to drafting the Sedins tried to compete, failed miserably, and then sold off current players to try and get both Sedins at the top of the draft. This VAN team has tried to compete, has failed miserably, but instead of trying to prioritize the draft, sold picks to get a current player. So the opposite strategy. In a way, this signifies the Sedin move as a rebuild, and the Hronek move a re-tool move. Is that a fair assessment?

 

[Bleach Clean]

I've said all of these things many times.

What they're trying could obviously fail. It's probably even likely that it fails. Benning absolutely f***ed us, and it might be unfixable in a time frame that allows us to retain our star players. And then in 2 years the logical course of action is to do a full rebuild at that point.

But no team is doing a rebuild now with these players in place until they do everything possible to flush out a successful roster around them.

You've acknowledged the low probability of having a successful re-tool here where? Anyway, I'll take your word for it. Ok. When you acknowledge it's "probably likely to fail," and it's probably less apt to create a better team over the greater range of Pettersson's career than rebuilding for 2 years, then you're effectively admitting that the latter is the better strategy.

But instead of admitting that it is, you've propped up management pressures and Pettersson leaving as scarecrows as to why it will never be attempted, even though you have no earthly idea, in reality, what will motivate any one of these players to leave the Canucks.

I will again bring to your attention that Bo Horvat was willing to re-sign here despite, DESPITE, him losing for longer than either Pettersson or Hughes... And he was in the same room, and was a core player...

 

[gringo]

I've said all of these things many times.

What they're trying could obviously fail. It's probably even likely that it fails. Benning absolutely f***ed us, and it might be unfixable in a time frame that allows us to retain our star players. And then in 2 years the logical course of action is to do a full rebuild at that point.

But no team is doing a rebuild now with these players in place until they do everything possible to flush out a successful roster around them.

I’m sorry but Hughes and EP40 were big parts of the teams that shit the bed two season starts in a row.

And we aren’t talking about tanking, we are talking about going on a 6 week early vacation so we can get a high pick.

I don’t understand this argument at all. It’s 6 weeks. Literally. 6 meaningless weeks. That’s what should be being discussed. A multi year rebuild is out of the question when these morons can’t run a strategic tank for 6 mother f***ing weeks

We’ve been out of it since late November for Chrissake and we have pick 11 overall. Say that to yourself 3 times and see if you don’t get nauseous

 

[MS]

You've acknowledged the low probability of having a successful re-tool here where? Anyway, I'll take your word for it. Ok. When you acknowledge it's "probably likely to fail," and it's probably less apt to create a better team over the greater range of Pettersson's career than rebuilding for 2 years, then you're effectively admitting that the latter is the better strategy.

But instead of admitting that it is, you've propped up management pressures and Pettersson leaving as scarecrows as to why it will never be attempted, even though you have no earthly idea, in reality, what will motivate any one of these players to leave the Canucks.

I will again bring to your attention that Bo Horvat was willing to re-sign here despite, DESPITE, him losing for longer than either Pettersson or Hughes... And he was in the same room, and was a core player...

Media reported Pettersson was leaving without a good start next season literally yesterday. Pettersson has repeatedly refused to commit long term when pressed citing his desire for winning hockey.

But yes, 'scarecrows'.

Again, I have literally no idea to respond to you. You've come up with a worldview for what the team should to that is just clearly not grounded in reality, and then repeatedly cite non-comparable situations to justify it.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I was on the rebuild train last season because I thought Miller and Bo could return blue chip prospects that could speed it up. The reality is that I’ve overestimated the return greatly. Like the 1st rounder from trading Miller and Bo has a high risk of busting and it’s obvious now that teams are 100% unwilling to trade their top prospect for either player. So given that is the reality, I don’t see how we can have a fast rebuild. Like hell just look at Mackinnon, 1st OA can’t miss prospect and he took 5 bloody seasons to get into his star form. Jack Hughes took 4 seasons. Hischier took 5 seasons. Like even if we tanked this season and get like a Fantili or Carlsson, you can’t really expect them to do shit for you until like 3-4 years after. And to get out of those “fast” rebuild, you need those guys to help pull you out.

Like if you trade away Miller(ppg), Horvat(60pt) and Kuz(70pt), getting similar players back will just get you back to where you started. It’s not like it’s realistic to expect to fill all those holes through FA, maybe 1 if you are lucky and then you have to wait 3-5 years to see if the guys you picked actually get fill the original holes. Then you have to wait another year for the next wave and see how they do.

There is simply no fast way to do it if the original assets can’t get you premium piece and we should know by now that the guys we want to get rid of, can’t get us those premium pieces.

Ok, I think I see the hang up now:

If it helps the re-tool posters, try to think of the rebuild around Pettersson-Hughes as just another re-tool. Forget rebuild for a moment. Forget tank (there is no tank). Here's the scenario:

- Instead of trading a 1st and 2nd for Hronek, use the money allocated to him to instead sign Severson and keep the picks.

Now, does this signal re-tool or rebuild? It's a strategy that still affords Pettersson-Hughes the chance of being on a competitive team. top4 RHD brought in. Perhaps not one as good as Hronek, but will fill the role for a time.

Then, you wait on the 1st and 2nd to mature. This gives them the best of both strategies, but you could still say they have prioritized the draft with this because they could have gotten a better RHD with a trade. Does this make sense?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Media reported Pettersson was leaving without a good start next season literally yesterday. Pettersson has repeatedly refused to commit long term when pressed citing his desire for winning hockey.

But yes, 'scarecrows'.

Again, I have literally no idea to respond to you. You've come up with a worldview for what the team should to that is just clearly not grounded in reality, and then repeatedly cite non-comparable situations to justify it.

Getting the Sedins is not cited as a comparable. It's one to show what they could have done, realistically, as in it happened, rather than what happened here with bringing in Hronek.

The Dhaliwal interview: Brisson said that Pettersson wanted to sign for 6-8 years but VAN didn't have the cap. Do you remember him saying this?

Where has it been reported that Pettersson is refusing to commit long-term?

 

[F A N]

They pushed their chips in when they gave JT his extension, plus the Hronke trade. That's a team trying to compete now, not to mention they way Tocchet and management rode their stars into the ground down the stretch for meaningless wins. Since that's the case, they cannot have a $7.26 million anchor on the roster.

The third and fourth years are the only kinda painful ones but a good management group can plan around that. To get $7.1 million in savings this upcoming season and almost $5 million in 2024-25 would be a massive boon.

That horrific Boeser extension comes off the books when the savings is only $2.5 million in years three and four of the buyout.

The plan can't be, "I hope we can put him on LTIR and recoup." He's a massive negative player. Almost anybody with two legs is better than him at this point.

And that changes our discussion here how? Management can want to win the Cup next year however much they want but do you think it's doable? If not, priority #1 should absolutely not be buying out OEL.

You realize they save more cap space in 2024-2025 by buying out OEL in summer 2024 as opposed to this summer right?

 

[gringo]

And that changes our discussion here how? Management can want to win the Cup next year however much they want but do you think it's doable? If not, priority #1 should absolutely not be buying out OEL.

You realize they save more cap space in 2024-2025 by buying out OEL in summer 2024 as opposed to this summer right?

If the team comes out next season and has another piss poor October and November it’s going to get ugly. They have to put all the chips in to avoid exactly that.

 

[MS]

Getting the Sedins is not cited as a comparable. It's one to show what they could have done, realistically, as in it happened, rather than what happened here with bringing in Hronek.

The Dhaliwal interview: Brisson said that Pettersson wanted to sign for 6-8 years but VAN didn't have the cap. Do you remember him saying this?

Where has it been reported that Pettersson is refusing to commit long-term?

Dhaliwal said in the last 48 hours that Pettersson will Tkachuk is way out if the team is not competitive next year.

And nobody should need media confirmation on this - every interview Pettersson has done in the past couple years has basically screamed this from the rooftops.

 

[Diogenes92]

i can assume hoglander and podkolzin are keeps? boeser traded?

so basically calling this year was the year 1, after the third year 24/25 we go into the next season with this? i am assuming we re-sign pettersson / podkolzin / hoglander at forward? i assume we re-sign hronek on defence?

Hoglander / Pettersson / Mikheyev
Podkolzin / ELC Draft pick Kid / Garland
X / X / X
X / X / X

Hughes / Hronek
X / X
X / X

X goalie
X goalie

assuming we traded demko and boeser and miller.. trade garland? trade kuzmenko? trade beauvillier?
re-sign? hirose, mcward, johansson? silovs? Aman, joshua, mcdonough?

So, this is all based on if the Canucks had decided to tank this year and at least made an effort to get a top 3 pick.

2 season from now, if the Canucks put a focus on trading older players, and bring in younger talent through cheap signings, trades, and a crap ton of draft picks and hopefully hit on a few players.

Forward group could possibly consist of:

Pettersson, Boeser, Garland, Kuzmenko, Bedard/Fantilli, Aman, Joshua, Hoglander, Podkolzin as mainstays.

Insert the remaining slots with emerging draft picks, signings etc. Examples could be Karlsson, Lekkermaki (ugh).

The rumoured Miller trade involved a couple high picks. So lets say those picks bring in a top D and C prospect from the draft.

The biggest need for forwards is as you said, a 3C.

Unless Aman continues to develop, they will need to draft, trade, or sign one.



Dcore is a much bigger question mark. There is next to no depth, but it really won't be difficult to replace OEL and Myers who played way too many minutes for what they provided. Freaking Juuslen looked better than Myers quite often.

Hughes, Hronek , Bear (if he doesn't demand too much on his next deal), emerging talent ie Hirose, McWard, etc.

I would put a premium on cheap contracts that have a similar return value when compared to albatrosses such as Myers.

This is where Brisebois, Wolanin, and Rathbone could emerge as useful players. When you have cheap contracts, age doesn't matter as much because diminishing returns don't hurt your cap structure ie. Myers, OEL.

I believe that a few affordable signings hitting and a top draft D prospect will be necessary to push them into playoff territory within 2 years.

As far as goaltending...

Demko would return a lot in a trade. For the sake of our debate, let's say that they trade Demko.

My plan would be to sign Jarry to a 3 year deal this off season (Rutherford and Allvin ties and he is a local kid) as long as he doesn't demand 5+ million.

Silovs has promise. He is a legitimate backup option the next 2 years.

Continue to draft a develop goalies. Demko's return could come with top draft picks and maybe a promising goalie prospect?

No crappy expensive contracts being given out on July 1st and no more trading high draft picks for age-gap players.

All of this being said...

It is quite possible that the team is in the same position in 3 years when conpared to a retool. But at least with this strategy and approach, they build up draft capital and their prospect cupboards.

Obviously none of this will happen as Aquilini won't stand for it. But I believe this is a more logical approach to give this current core a better chance at meaningful playoff games within 2 to 3 years.

 

[God]

Dhaliwal said in the last 48 hours that Pettersson will Tkachuk is way out if the team is not competitive next year.

And nobody should need media confirmation on this - every interview Pettersson has done in the past couple years has basically screamed this from the rooftops.

actually he said it on friday, so you're wrong and the mods need to step in and ban you

Canucks News, Rumours, & Fantasy GM | Part 2

if ross colton is this team's big idea to improve... Colton would be a very sensible 3C acquisition, at the right price.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[arttk]

Ok, I think I see the hang up now:

If it helps the re-tool posters, try to think of the rebuild around Pettersson-Hughes as just another re-tool. Forget rebuild for a moment. Forget tank (there is no tank). Here's the scenario:

- Instead of trading a 1st and 2nd for Hronek, use the money allocated to him to instead sign Severson and keep the picks.

Now, does this signal re-tool or rebuild? It's a strategy that still affords Pettersson-Hughes the chance of being on a competitive team. top4 RHD brought in. Perhaps not one as good as Hronek, but will fill the role for a time.

Then, you wait on the 1st and 2nd to mature. This gives them the best of both strategies, but you could still say they have prioritized the draft with this because they could have gotten a better RHD with a trade. Does this make sense?

There are a couple things here, first, you are essentially outlining a retool type of move here. Second, you are making the assumption that some of us are totally cool and loving the Hronek deal.

So I think the retool type of move is fine. The probability of us being able to sign Severson is probably pretty low because of how much cap we have and how in demand RHD are. I wouldn't bank my retool on a move that has a low probability of happening.

I am pretty disappointed with trading away a 1st and a 2nd so I am not even going to bother to even pretend I am a fan of that move.

actually he said it on friday, so you're wrong and the mods need to step in and ban you

Canucks News, Rumours, & Fantasy GM | Part 2

if ross colton is this team's big idea to improve... Colton would be a very sensible 3C acquisition, at the right price.

forums.hfboards.com

god has spoken

 

[Green Blank Stare]

And that changes our discussion here how? Management can want to win the Cup next year however much they want but do you think it's doable? If not, priority #1 should absolutely not be buying out OEL.

You realize they save more cap space in 2024-2025 by buying out OEL in summer 2024 as opposed to this summer right?

They save a little money on the backend if they wait another year. If they buy him out this summer, basically his entire salary is off the cap next season.

I don't know how anyone can look at these charts and say they should wait another year to buy him out. It genuinely makes no sense to not buy him out this summer.

Oliver Ekman-Larsson Buyout - NHL Contract Buyout, Salary cap impact | Puckpedia

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculations. Find out the total cap impact of buying out a player any year of their current contract, including a detailed explanation of the buyout cap hit math involved.

puckpedia.com

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculator, cap hit impact | Puckpedia

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculations. Find out the total cap impact of buying out a player any year of their current contract, including a detailed explanation of the buyout cap hit math involved.

puckpedia.com

The first link is if they buy him out this summer and the second is if they buy him out next summer.

There's really people pearl clutching over a couple hundred thousand in some of those seasons or an extra year of $2.1 million seven years from now. A quality management group can work around that. If you don't think the Canucks will ever have that, then who cares?

 

[arttk]

They save a little money on the backend if they wait another year. If they buy him out this summer, basically his entire salary is off the cap next season.

I don't know how anyone can look at these charts and say they should wait another year to buy him out. It genuinely makes no sense to not buy him out this summer.

Oliver Ekman-Larsson Buyout - NHL Contract Buyout, Salary cap impact | Puckpedia

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculations. Find out the total cap impact of buying out a player any year of their current contract, including a detailed explanation of the buyout cap hit math involved.

puckpedia.com

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculator, cap hit impact | Puckpedia

Oliver Ekman-Larsson buyout calculations. Find out the total cap impact of buying out a player any year of their current contract, including a detailed explanation of the buyout cap hit math involved.

puckpedia.com

The first link is if they buy him out this summer and the second is if they buy him out next summer.

There's really people pearl clutching over a couple hundred thousand in some of those seasons or an extra year of $2.1 million seven years from now. A quality management group can work around that. If you don't think the Canucks will ever have that, then who cares?

Owner too f***ing cheap

 

[Jack Burton]

All I’m going to say is this…. How, and I mean HOW can a new regime come in here and f*** up even more than the 4 horse men of the apocalypse????

How can a new regime (are they paying attention or just collecting pay cheques) screw up as much as this new regime did this year?

I know a lot of us just want the best for this frachise but holy crap!!!!

In my personal opinion, it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Would you agree?????

 

[me2]

The Dhaliwal interview: Brisson said that Pettersson wanted to sign for 6-8 years but VAN didn't have the cap. Do you remember him saying this?

Think of this ^^^^ anytime someone says "it's only a couple of million, that's a few percent, it's nothing, it won't matter" when taking about buyouts or bad contracts.

Smile and go find someone smarter to talk to.

 

[racerjoe]

I’m sorry but Hughes and EP40 were big parts of the teams that shit the bed two season starts in a row.

And we aren’t talking about tanking, we are talking about going on a 6 week early vacation so we can get a high pick.

I don’t understand this argument at all. It’s 6 weeks. Literally. 6 meaningless weeks. That’s what should be being discussed. A multi year rebuild is out of the question when these morons can’t run a strategic tank for 6 mother f***ing weeks

We’ve been out of it since late November for Chrissake and we have pick 11 overall. Say that to yourself 3 times and see if you don’t get nauseous

McDavid and Dri missed the playoffs 4 of the first five years... they must have been part of the problem though and they should be traded right?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I was on the rebuild train last season because I thought Miller and Bo could return blue chip prospects that could speed it up. The reality is that I’ve overestimated the return greatly. Like the 1st rounder from trading Miller and Bo has a high risk of busting and it’s obvious now that teams are 100% unwilling to trade their top prospect for either player. So given that is the reality, I don’t see how we can have a fast rebuild. Like hell just look at Mackinnon, 1st OA can’t miss prospect and he took 5 bloody seasons to get into his star form. Jack Hughes took 4 seasons. Hischier took 5 seasons. Like even if we tanked this season and get like a Fantili or Carlsson, you can’t really expect them to do shit for you until like 3-4 years after. And to get out of those “fast” rebuild, you need those guys to help pull you out.

Like if you trade away Miller(ppg), Horvat(60pt) and Kuz(70pt), getting similar players back will just get you back to where you started. It’s not like it’s realistic to expect to fill all those holes through FA, maybe 1 if you are lucky and then you have to wait 3-5 years to see if the guys you picked actually get fill the original holes. Then you have to wait another year for the next wave and see how they do.

There is simply no fast way to do it if the original assets can’t get you premium piece and we should know by now that the guys we want to get rid of, can’t get us those premium pieces.

Wait... What is the timeline for the retool that is taking place, in your opinion?

Who is actually saying this!? Also "our defense looks a bit crap" is quite an understatement, but I'm sure you already know that.

Also, who decide the difference between "things that should happen" and "things that would never happen"? You? Our owner, the guy that has shown to have such great hockey knowledge?

You keep insisting that we can't "hold back our stars" and justify their ice time during garbage time so Petey and Hughes has to play their insane minutes. Since March 4th, when the team was clearly out of the playoff race, Petey has over 20mins of ice time in 15 out of 20 games, with 11 of them over 22 minutes. That is an insane amount for ice time for a forward, which include starting most of the PK. Look at Tage Thompson, in that same time frame he has 3 games out of 17 with over 20mins of ice time, with only 1 game over 22mins. Are the Sabres "holding him back from leveling up"?

Also from March 4th on, Hughes has over 24mins in 18 of his last 20 games, exceeding 28mins 8 times. Dahlin has over 24 mins in 15 of his last 21 games, exceeding 28mins just 3 times. Are the Sabres also holding him back too?

Sabres must be playing video game there, as they are one of the few teams less successful than us in the last few years, yet clearly not making as big a push to jump up in the standing during garbage time. Should we be expecting Thompson and Dahlin to quit the Sabres some time soon?

Nobody is saying what MS tries to argue against.

 

[Peen]

I think it’s incredibly odd that Rutherford has been dodging the media given he’s the president.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I think it’s incredibly odd that Rutherford has been dodging the media given he’s the president.

He made him self look like an ass again and again and is now blaming the media for showing him in bad light?

 

[aight]

So after 2 to 3 yrs.. who is left on the roster to push for multiple round expectation.. if in fact miller was traded.. and demko was for the right package

Lol.. what lineup can you project.. even if it is just

Kuzmenko / pettersson / mikheyev
Joshua / kid / garland

Like seriously.. can you project it? Even by saying kid or ufa? Who else was traded in this


Shit winds

They whip in from the ocean with the old shitfisher.