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Seems kind of convenient to completely ignore the total body of work and assets spent on defencemen by Benning.

Sbisa as part of the Kesler trade when far better options were available.
Clendening for Forsling
Gudbranson for McCann + 33rd overall
OEL (and Garland) for 9th overall + 2nd
Pedan for a 3rd
Larsen for a 5th
Pouliot for a 4th
Bartkowski

Half these players were never NHLers, yet decent assets were spent on them. Current management has spent minor assets on NHL players. Current management’s trades for defencemen are like Benning’s best trades.

Are they better or do you just overrate the current blue liners?

There’s already a 2nd, 3rd, and 5th out the door to add 3 dmen.

I’m just going by what I see and it looks similar to previous. Of course they haven’t made any big moves yet, so we don’t know what the Gudbranson/Kesler like trade returns look like, or their extensions.


That said the “desired” return in a Horvat/Boeser deal sounds awfully similar to what JB targeted in return for Kesler.
 
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I mean, didn’t his two linemates get picked within five picks of him? If they had him ranked that high, they clearly saw him as the driver/most likely to turn out relative to those linemates.

Only really going off of what I see Cam Robinson throw out there but the other two seem to be performing decently well unlike Lekk.

sure but my point is that they made that determination based on a fairly small sample size. they probably have next to no scouting reports from prior seasons. was lekkerimaki running hot or was he a gifted natural scorer? hard to tell with limited viewings
 
Are they better or do you just overrate the current blue liners?

There’s already a 2nd, 3rd, and 5th out the door to add 3 dmen.

I’m just going by what I see and it looks similar to previous. Of course they haven’t made any big moves yet, so we don’t know what the Gudbranson/Kesler like trade returns look like, or their extensions.


That said the “desired” return in a Horvat/Boeser deal sounds awfully similar to what JB targeted in return for Kesler.
Lol are you serious about the first sentence? Pretty much every objective measurement indicates Bear and Dermott are better than Pedan, Clendening, Pouliot, Larsen, Bartkowski, etc.

Equating the Dickinson trade as a 2nd for Stillman is disingenuous.
 
i don't think the pedan trade was good and i think dermott is better than pedan ever was but if you can't see why trading a 3rd for a 22 year old stuck behind a deep group of blueliners is different than trading a 3rd for a 25 year old who can't crack a shaky group of blueliners then i dunno what to tell you
I mean at that point in time it was like sure, master drafter great talent evaluator so he might be seeing something everybody is missing. Overtime we’ve learned that all he does is relies on his scouting reports when those guys are still in junior.

Even in hindsight, there was no good reason to pay such a high price for a guy that had no place on the isles dev system. It’s like a high price for a guy that did nothing to justify the price.

For Dermott, I didn’t follow what happened over in Toronto but I thought the discussion was more about giving him an opportunity elsewhere hence the cost being a 3rd.
 
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I’ll repeat what I have said for a year now.

What I said at first was that we would need A grade management with a high volume of action and high hit rates if they wanted to turn things around quickly.

C grade, or even B grade management wouldn’t be good enough because their starting position is so bad. I thought they made the right decision holding onto Miller past the TDL because I felt the package they could get after would be comparable at worst to the NYR 1st + Chytil/Kravtsov + Nils offer. They then did get pretty close to the 13th pick at the draft, without knowing what else was a part of that deal.

Their cheap bets were not as bad as the Pouliot, Vey, Sbisa, Clendenning, Granlund tier - albeit they also haven’t had a noticeable win yet either.

The problem is that this management, and even posters like @MS, could not see the forest for the trees. The notion of trading for a second round pick was laughed at. Sure trading a guy like Garland for a second after his ES point totals last season wouldn’t have felt great, but that cap flexibility and second rounder got Marino. The idea of not qualifying Boeser seemingly was never considered, or else they probably would have leaked it because this organization is very concerned about PR of moves they make. Instead, they make a stupid signing and people like Drance praise it for some reason. Then, they panic with Miller. I also like Mikheyev, and he has proven to have been a good signing and not the horror show @VanillaCoke claimed him to be, but the roster was so flawed and so capped out with excess winger salary that there were unintended costs associated with signing Mik.

Then they don’t want to take a step back or take on short term money according to every report a year ago - Rutherford saying taking back money isn’t something they’re looking at. Imagine they just made the necessary moves when they came in in January.

I also want to make one thing clear. The type of package you should be willing to take is situational. If you’re going for a tear down and want to be bad, you take “perceived below market offers” for guys like Debrincat because it positions your team better. When you’re trying to do a quick retool, you need to maximize your best assets (Miller last year, Horvat this year). That is what makes this path so hard.

This management group hasn’t solved anything. In a vacuum, they have been C grade. I don’t think any less is fair.

But in regards to your point, relative to Benning’s historically bad F, it’s a huge improvement.

Relative to the A+ they would have needed to get us out of this mess in the timeline Rutherford set of two years, it is not good enough and we are an unserious franchise that will not compete for at least a decade unless they have a willingness to change direction.

They don’t have the balls to do anything. They haven’t even fired the coach they hate. They haven’t sorted a new practice facility which was reportedly a big deal a year ago. The whole Doerrie/Castonguay debacle looks awful for the organization. Management hiding from the media. No improvement in accountability, anything.

Agreed for the most part. However, the bolded portion is one that is that I would take issue with...even though I believe it to be true. Benning was historically bad...no question...but the "improvement" in this management group isn't based on anything tangible really, just that they're NOT Benning. People like to doomsday theory what kind of hole Benning would have cratered us into if he were still here, but I'm pretty sure we'd still be pretty close to where we are still sitting...capstrated, empty asset pool and lower end of the standings. So I'm not really feeling the "huge improvement" just yet...despite knowing that they are better than Benning.
 
Gotta say though, him saying this out loud is one of the funnier Canucks quotes of the past few years. Just incredible levels of either self-delusion or not giving a flying f*** about respecting the intelligence of the media and fans
I'm not sure if it is about not respecting fans' intelligence, I believe he legit thinks that he is being more responsible now therefore producing less. Even if what he said is true though, that means he has to cheat on defense to create offense. So we either get a high scoring player that is horrible defensively, or a defensive player that cannot produce offense 5-on-5. Currently we are getting the worst of both worlds, but what he is saying is that, at best, we are only going to get one or the other, not both. 7 more years of this to look forward to.
 
Not really, they are the very least 3rd paring guys paid as such. The knock with them has always been, they can fill in top4 roles for some time but lack the consistency to be top4 guys. I have zero doubts that they would do better in an environment where it’s actually functional.

That’s a vast difference compared to 90% of the Benning trash that can be described as AHLers forced onto the NHL roster to save face.
Didn't Bear came over from Carolina, where they picked Chatfield over him? I would say their environment is pretty functional, especially for defensemen. I said it at the time of the trade, if Carolina couldn't unlock a top 4 defender in Bear, it is extremely unlikely that we can do it here. I still think Bear is a decent 3rd pairing guy though, and if paid accordingly, is an asset for us.
 
Didn't Bear came over from Carolina, where they picked Chatfield over him? I would say their environment is pretty functional, especially for defensemen. I said it at the time of the trade, if Carolina couldn't unlock a top 4 defender in Bear, it is extremely unlikely that we can do it here. I still think Bear is a decent 3rd pairing guy though, and if paid accordingly, is an asset for us.
Sure that’s fair and that might be the reason why he only cost a 5th rounder + retention. It’s still a very cheap bet for a guy that at the very least is a 3rd paring guy that can move the puck which is a quality that is lacking on the team.

Like they have outlined what they want from the D, guys that can move the puck. Both Dermott and Bear can do that so they are not just 3rd paring guys, they are 3rd paring guys that adds a dimension that is sorely needed. But I don’t think we’ll see improvements until Myers is gone because it seems like whoever he ends on the ice with, he just creates so much chaos it throws everyone off.
 
Sure that’s fair and that might be the reason why he only cost a 5th rounder + retention. It’s still a very cheap bet for a guy that at the very least is a 3rd paring guy that can move the puck which is a quality that is lacking on the team.

Like they have outlined what they want from the D, guys that can move the puck. Both Dermott and Bear can do that so they are not just 3rd paring guys, they are 3rd paring guys that adds a dimension that is sorely needed. But I don’t think we’ll see improvements until Myers is gone because it seems like whoever he ends on the ice with, he just creates so much chaos it throws everyone off.
Yep improvements to the blueline hinge on replacing Myers and finding Hughes a Schenn like partner that is actually a top 4 guy (love Schenn but he really is a #6 on actual contenders). And I didn't think those improvements could be made until time ticked off contracts. Myers IS moveable once his bonus is paid this summer. In fact he might even become an attractive trade target for multiple teams. OEL sadly is not moveable unless Benning gets a job somewhere. But you still need to open up some room on the blueline by moving Myers and Schenn (or completely bumping Schenn down the lineup) along with some other contracts.

On Bear...he was a regular player in Carolina until he got hurt. Then he couldn't get back into the lineup and that continued into this season. Sometimes it happens that you do lose a spot when injured and then the organization continues to overlook the player. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last. The cost was cheap and the type of move one makes. The move becomes folly only if they give him second pairing money.
 
Yep improvements to the blueline hinge on replacing Myers and finding Hughes a Schenn like partner that is actually a top 4 guy (love Schenn but he really is a #6 on actual contenders). And I didn't think those improvements could be made until time ticked off contracts. Myers IS moveable once his bonus is paid this summer. In fact he might even become an attractive trade target for multiple teams. OEL sadly is not moveable unless Benning gets a job somewhere. But you still need to open up some room on the blueline by moving Myers and Schenn (or completely bumping Schenn down the lineup) along with some other contracts.
Yeah I see Myers as the biggest contributor to our backend problem. What we paring he is on he f***s it up. He gets stuck on the ice because why the f*** not and whoever is stuck with him ends up getting sucked into his chaos. He’s like a one person wrecking ball that needs like a prime Pronger level player to stabilize. It’ll be like night and day the moment we get rid of his ass.
 
Lol are you serious about the first sentence? Pretty much every objective measurement indicates Bear and Dermott are better than Pedan, Clendening, Pouliot, Larsen, Bartkowski, etc.

Equating the Dickinson trade as a 2nd for Stillman is disingenuous.
I’m not seeing what sets either Dermott or Bear apart from guys like Pouliot, Larsen, Bartkowski. All guys who couldn’t stick on quality teams.

Clendening sucked. So did Pedan. Hopefully Myrenberg doesn’t become a forsling.


It all looks similar.


The Dickinson dump for a 2nd can’t just be swept under the rug. Stillmsn was acquired. He plays.

Management could’ve immediately waived him. They haven’t.
 
I’m not seeing what sets either Dermott or Bear apart from guys like Pouliot, Larsen, Bartkowski. All guys who couldn’t stick on quality teams.

Clendening sucked. So did Pedan. Hopefully Myrenberg doesn’t become a forsling.


It all looks similar.


The Dickinson dump for a 2nd can’t just be swept under the rug. Stillmsn was acquired. He plays.

Management could’ve immediately waived him. They haven’t.
Well first off, they have hundreds of games of NHL experience and played on some fairly decent NHL teams rather than languishing in the AHL. That’s a big distinction. As mentioned, the assets traded for them were also much less significant than what Benning offered.

They also appear to be better on both the eye test and statistically.

Yes agreed on the Dickinson trade, the trade involved a 2nd for Stillman as well as freeing up $1.3 mill in cap space for the next two seasons. That was the point I was making. I agree with @MS ’s take on it, Stillman probably wasn’t the focal point of the trade but probably saw him as defensive depth that could have had some upside and this obviously was incorrect.
 
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Dude...I'm not saying they are the same or worse than Benning, I'm saying by what has happened SO FAR...you wouldn't be able to tell if this were a Benning managed team or not...because there is no tangible evidence of improvement...and I'll stand by that.
Of course you would be able to tell if Benning was still managing this team. First off we would have lost like 5-6 high draft picks already. We would definitely not have Kuz and Miki. You would probably see a bunch of crappy ass washed up players signed playing for no god damn reason ala Sam Gagner, Chiasson, Beagle. Bo and Miller would d be signed and probably together make like 20M. motte probably still here signed to like 2-3M with term. Wouldn’t be surprised if he gave Sutter one more to because that’s what he does.

You are just looking at the standings and saying jeez nothing looks different to me without actually looking at how different it already is.
 
Yep improvements to the blueline hinge on replacing Myers and finding Hughes a Schenn like partner that is actually a top 4 guy (love Schenn but he really is a #6 on actual contenders). And I didn't think those improvements could be made until time ticked off contracts. Myers IS moveable once his bonus is paid this summer. In fact he might even become an attractive trade target for multiple teams. OEL sadly is not moveable unless Benning gets a job somewhere. But you still need to open up some room on the blueline by moving Myers and Schenn (or completely bumping Schenn down the lineup) along with some other contracts.

Schenn makes $850k, combined with Myers that is $6.85m to cover both 1st and 2nd pairing right side D. $3.4m per position.
 
I’m not seeing what sets either Dermott or Bear apart from guys like Pouliot, Larsen, Bartkowski. All guys who couldn’t stick on quality teams.

Clendening sucked. So did Pedan. Hopefully Myrenberg doesn’t become a forsling.


It all looks similar.


The Dickinson dump for a 2nd can’t just be swept under the rug. Stillmsn was acquired. He plays.

Management could’ve immediately waived him. They haven’t.

I don't like the Bear/Dermott trades either, but they aren't as bad as that group. None of those guys were ever NHL regulars after their time here and that's always a massive red flag. Now maybe Dermott/Bear don't either, but it's too early to know.

I look at them more in the Ben Hutton/Del Zotto/Benn range of guys where you don't need to give up assets to get them, you can find those guys cheap every year as free agents to fill out the bottom few defensive spots.
 
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I still think Dermott has a lot of ceiling that we'll hopefully be able to unlock. Yeah Toronto could have used more d-men but he had risen up the rankings until he had a very disappointing 2020-21. Sandin and Liljegren were looking like they were going to eclipse him pretty quickly so IMO that's why he got moved in a typical Dubas "looking after my Marlies guys" move. Also two straight coaching staffs seem inexplicably willing to give Holl lots of playing time over better options so maybe Dermott not breaking in with the Leafs wasn't entirely rational.

Difference between Dermott and others listed is that he has all the tools and at least shows flashes (with the Leafs) of being a high end defender.

An aside - I realized that Holl is what Myers would be if he only cost $2M. I'd bet Holl is better stats-wise but he is so susceptible to catastrophic brain farts. Trust me, it's still infuriating.

Bear is a guy who comes in having played 150+ NHL games and looked serviceable with some flashes of upside. I don't mind a 3rd to gamble on a guy like that considering we had no depth back there whatsoever and for the most part still don't.

We are critical of Rtuherford and co's inability to address the defence, which is the core issue with this team. So I can't be hypocritical and be against decent moves that have lots of potential upside in terms of best case getting more out of established NHL defenders who have played for good teams and worst case addresses a lack of depth at those positions.
 
I don't like the Bear/Dermott trades either, but they aren't as bad as that group. None of those guys were ever NHL regulars after their time here and that's always a massive red flag. Now maybe Dermott/Bear don't either, but it's too early to know.

I look at them more in the Ben Hutton/Del Zotto/Benn range of guys where you don't need to give up assets to get them, you can find those guys cheap every year as free agents to fill out the bottom few defensive spots.
I mean I don’t disagree completely, the difference is Hutton and Benn has like zero upside with some significant holes that makes them the journeyman that they are. With Bear and Dermott, you are paying for some potential upside.
Delzotto is awful, he’s basically a mainstay at all tanking teams, pretty sure he’s not a comparable.
 
Of course you would be able to tell if Benning was still managing this team. First off we would have lost like 5-6 high draft picks already. We would definitely not have Kuz and Miki. You would probably see a bunch of crappy ass washed up players signed playing for no god damn reason ala Sam Gagner, Chiasson, Beagle. Bo and Miller would d be signed and probably together make like 20M. motte probably still here signed to like 2-3M with term. Wouldn’t be surprised if he gave Sutter one more to because that’s what he does.

You are just looking at the standings and saying jeez nothing looks different to me without actually looking at how different it already is.
lol...tell me how "different" it is.
 
I mean I don’t disagree completely, the difference is Hutton and Benn has like zero upside with some significant holes that makes them the journeyman that they are. With Bear and Dermott, you are paying for some potential upside.
Delzotto is awful, he’s basically a mainstay at all tanking teams, pretty sure he’s not a comparable.

Dermott is 26 and Bear will be 26 in June. I'm not sure how much upside there are in these players. I have no problem comparing them to players like Hutton, Benn, and MDZ as bottom-pairing filler because that's what they all are.
 
Also some of you guy's comparables are ridiculous. Of all the guys mentioned, maybe Hutton is a young-ish guy with good wheels who could maybe play up the lineup. The rest had huge holes in their games right away, or like Del Zotto were past their prime and were drifting around the league.
 
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I mean would you prefer that?
You just came up with a ton of hypothetical Benning moves and rave about how we're so much better...but when it comes to Brass Tacks we are currently in no better situation than if Benning were in charge right now, other than the fact Benning isn't in charge right now. We suck on the ice, we are capstrated and our asset pool is shallow as a MF'er...other than Benning not being in charge, how are we measurably better? We aren't, you just "feel better" because Benning isn't in charge...so do I, but the team isn't any better....we're still a zillion miles from contending, we still have no idea if these jokers are fit to build a contending team...they've been here over a year and they've basically minced around and tried to pass it off as "progress", maybe you're buying what they're selling but its not working for me.
 
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Dude...I'm not saying they are the same or worse than Benning, I'm saying by what has happened SO FAR...you wouldn't be able to tell if this were a Benning managed team or not...because there is no tangible evidence of improvement...and I'll stand by that.
Seriously man? Benning buried us with OEL. Give your head a shake.
 
lol...tell me how "different" it is.
I think our owner’s ordered directions to management is the same. But the new guys seem to be spending less on the supporting role players. The cap for Myers and OEL is more than the combined cap of all the supporting guys the new guys have brought in. So the same plan but spending less on the cap for the support group.
 
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