Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[Canucker]

I think our owner’s ordered directions to management is the same. But the new guys seem to be spending less on the supporting role players. The cap for Myers and OEL is more than the combined cap of all the supporting guys the new guys have brought in. So the same plan but spending less on the cap for the support group.

So they’re doing a better job of saving Aquilini money basically?

 

[Fatass]

So they’re doing a better job of saving Aquilini money basically?

Not so sure about that. The contracts to guys like Miller, (soon to be?) Bo, and Petey (in a bit) will eat up any cap savings from spending less on the supporting players.
IMO it’s a crazy thing to think spending less on the supporting players will result in the core guys (who can’t win with more expensive help) winning more with cheaper help.

 

[iceburg]

Bear and Dermott are much better alternatives than the players who have been plugged in the line-up to date - they are not the problem. In considering what would be a competitive D core, they are solid third pairing guys each with the ability to fill in in the top 4 for short stretches when needed.

Stillman and Burroughs are 7/8 at this stage. Wolanin might actually be a better option.

Schenn is a great #6 at this stage in his career.

I don't actually know what Myers is at this point. He doesn't seem to fit anywhere.

Hughes is obviously a top 4 but occasionally gets lost out there in defensive situations.

OEL is a 3/4 at this stage.

We can complain all we want of Bear and Dermott but they aren't going to move the needle. This team needs two legitimate top 4 defenders, one of which is clearly a top pairing guy. Until management is able to acquire these two players, the defensive group will remain a weak point for this team.

When I go back to look at the defensive groups for the teams that were most competitive, no player was playing out of place. In 2011, even a guy like Aaron Rome was a solid contributor because he wasn't expected to play beyond his abilities. 1994 Murzyn and Diduck were solid in their roles because they had all world guys Lumme and Babych in the line-up. Even then, they brought in Jeff Brown.

It isn't the bottom end of this D core that is the problem. It's that there isn't a top end.

 

[Canucker]

Not so sure about that. The contracts to guys like Miller, (soon to be?) Bo, and Petey (in a bit) will eat up any cap savings from spending less on the supporting players.
IMO it’s a crazy thing to think spending less on the supporting players will result in the core guys (who can’t win with more expensive help) winning more with cheaper help.

They’re stuck…but they refuse to “take a step back” to try and free themselves, and prepare for when they are “unstuck”. They’ll just bury themselves deeper.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Seriously man? Benning buried us with OEL. Give your head a shake.

In a couple years, will we say "JR/Allvin buried us with JTM"?

Heck, I get the feeling that some fans are already thinking that. We really need the cap to go up by a lot just to make that one less painful.

 

[arttk]

Also some of you guy's comparables are ridiculous. Of all the guys mentioned, maybe Hutton is a young-ish guy with good wheels who could maybe play up the lineup. The rest had huge holes in their games right away, or like Del Zotto were past their prime and were drifting around the league.

We are at a point where we are not even having a honest discussion about Allvin and JR. Seeing guys prop up Benning failures like Pedan, DelZotto, Benn is like ugh.

Pedan is not that different than Dermott or Bear!? Like wtf is this shit discussion.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Because 3 team ethan got punted from a desperate for Defense Edmonton and then healthy scratched for months by one of the best run franchises in the league, then traded away for nothing is such a huge success story..

Like wth is this discussion.

 

[arttk]

You just came up with a ton of hypothetical Benning moves and rave about how we're so much better...but when it comes to Brass Tacks we are currently in no better situation than if Benning were in charge right now, other than the fact Benning isn't in charge right now. We suck on the ice, we are capstrated and our asset pool is shallow as a MF'er...other than Benning not being in charge, how are we measurably better? We aren't, you just "feel better" because Benning isn't in charge...so do I, but the team isn't any better....we're still a zillion miles from contending, we still have no idea if these jokers are fit to build a contending team...they've been here over a year and they've basically minced around and tried to pass it off as "progress", maybe you're buying what they're selling but its not working for me.

It’s basically what Benning has been doing for the past 8 years, make moves like exactly what I have listed.
Like saying he would’ve signed guys like Gagner, Beagle, Del Zotto isn’t hypothetical because it happened every single year he was here.
Saying he would throw in a pick and deplete our picks pick is something that happened every single year, remember how we don’t have our 2nd last draft and the 9th OA?
Saying he would re-up an expiring free agent that he acquired with what we they asked for is something that happened every single year, remember how he gave Pearson 3.25 because the agent said so?

To pretend any of the stuff I said it’s just pure hypothetical is to pretend that Benning doesn’t operate with remarkable consistency.

How are we better today. Let’s start with the farm. The farm is actually functional, we have an influx of young kids that are actually getting developed. We see reports about kids like Klimovich, Karlsson making observable improvements. If you don’t think that matters that you are just wrong. Everything starts by having a strong dev system.

Second, majority of the players he brought in actually follows some kind of consistent logic. They said they want faster and tougher players. Kuz, Mik, Joshua, Stud all fits in the mold. They said they want a mobile defense, well Bear and Dermott fits that. So you can at least see that they can get players based on some kind of vision.
You don’t replace the whole roster with players in one off-season but at least you can see oh they know a style they want and they are consistent in acquiring players that will get them towards achieving it. That’s why I can see myself waiting till this off-season because I want to see if they can replace all the misfits in this roster with pieces that perhaps are lower skipped but can actually have characteristics they want and end up at a spot where the sum of the parts are greater. I don’t know if they will do it but there is something there that points to perhaps they can do it.

Those two things are like complete opposite to what Benning did. The farm was an afterthought. Benning said he wants faster, tougher and more skilled and managed to get slower players that was soft or faster players that had no skills. The reason why the team is a mess right now is because Benning just brought in “real good” players that had completely different characteristics with zero vision.

The roster is in transition and the fact that we still have a bunch of guys that are essentially misfits, the transition is going to be rough. Never mind they haven’t gone out to get a guy they want to run the system they want in the style they want.

 

[TruGr1t]

OEL is a 3/4 at this stage.

As in like today? How long do you think that will last? The dude comes up lame at least once a game and limps back to the bench. He could easily be replacement-level by next year. At any rate, it's a question of a couple years before the fat lady.

 

[m9]

We are at a point where we are not even having a honest discussion about Allvin and JR. Seeing guys prop up Benning failures like Pedan, DelZotto, Benn is like ugh.

Pedan is not that different than Dermott or Bear!? Like wtf is this shit discussion.

Comparing guys like MDZ & Benn to Bear & Dermott is "propping up" those players? Nobody is being "propped up", it's really the opposite and pointing out how irrelevant all of those players are.

 

[arttk]

Comparing guys like MDZ & Benn to Bear & Dermott is "propping up" those players? Nobody is being "propped up", it's really the opposite and pointing out how irrelevant all of those players are.

How about Pedan?

Benn played like a total of around 50 games in the last 3 season since leaving us.
MDZ played more, but has been bouncing around as a 7th 8th D for bottom of the league teams for the past couple of years.

These are cheap 7th/8th/9th guys you get for pure injury purpose. What’s the point of comparing them to Bear and Dermott who are 4-5 level guys at the very least.

If you want to do comparison, the more fitting comparison would be Burroughs, Stillman and Wolainen.

 

[m9]

What’s the point of comparing them to Bear and Dermott who are 4-5 level guys at the very least.

Found your issue. What are you basing this is on?

"At the very least"

So.. they are maybe top 3 guys? What is happening?

 

[arttk]

Found your issue. What are you basing this is on?

"At the very least"

So.. they are maybe top 3 guys? What is happening?

Why are you omitting Pedan? Want to answer that?

 

[credulous]

How about Pedan?

Benn played like a total of around 50 games in the last 3 season since leaving us.
MDZ played more, but has been bouncing around as a 7th 8th D for bottom of the league teams for the past couple of years.

These are cheap 7th/8th/9th guys you get for pure injury purpose. What’s the point of comparing them to Bear and Dermott who are 4-5 level guys at the very least.

If you want to do comparison, the more fitting comparison would be Burroughs, Stillman and Wolainen.

no one is claiming pedan or mdz or hutton are better than bear and dermott. the point is that bear and dermott are fringe pieces just like pedan and mdz and hutton. getting them matters but not much. not enough to invest resources

burroughs and wolanin were acquired for free and are probably about as useful as bear and dermott. schenn was acquired for free and is definitely more useful than bear and dermott. kovacevic, valimaki, mahura and tinordi were all on waivers this season and could have been had for free. kulikov and timmins were given away for free. even the illustrious mdz was available basically for free. that's not even getting into free agents that were available over the summer

no one is saying bear and dermott are useless. all that's being argued here is that a 3rd and 5th to get a season each of bear and dermott was a waste of resources. bear and dermott are simply not good enough to matter

 

[arttk]

no one is claiming pedan or mdz or hutton are better than bear and dermott. the point is that bear and dermott are fringe pieces just like pedan and mdz and hutton. getting them matters but not much. not enough to invest resources

apart from gudbranson and the forsling/clendening swap all of those trades are better than the dermott trade. the pedan trade is very close. most are basically the same as the bear or studnicka trades. pouliot played 133 games for the canucks. i bet that ends up being more than aman, studnicka, stillman and probably bear play

Hi sir this you?

 

[arttk]

You wont be the only one eating crow

Eat crow on what? That I was wrong about wanting to see what happens in the off-season?

Like I said, if I am wrong I’ll be here banging the drums of fire this management group.

 

[m9]

Why are you omitting Pedan? Want to answer that?

Because I never said Pedan, someone else did. I did bring up other names which is why I used them as examples.

 

[gringo]

Reading comprehension is an underrated skill…keep at it.

Ya man, your comment was not only absurd it’s laughably absurd. How many challenged trades would Benning have made this summer? You should try to think through the logic of your comments before you make them, and especially before you double down with snarky responses.

 

[arttk]

I hate the blame previous management thing.

If you are not being proactive enough as a new management group to correct the position that you came into, then the blame shifts.

I said this all the moment they signed Miller. They can’t blame previous management anymore. They decided that they were going to keep going all in on a path that required them to be competitive for the next five years before Miller gets really old - and that timeline is inclusive of this season which is already toast because they had no flexibility if things went sideways.

@MikeK are you the same guy on twitter?

I find that weird, like ok what happens if Miller becomes like a 40 point you in like 5 years. Is that contract going to be the reason we can’t compete even if the cap is going to eve around 100M? If the cap stays at 80 for the next 5 years then sure yeah that will kill us but we know the cap won’t stay that low.

Even Miller at 40 points means that we are essentially having like 4M or wasted cap. Even then OEL is off the books at that point. So the key is to not have more contracts like that.

I also don’t think we are bad this season because they decided to keep Miller. They are bad because they have a poor culture where they started the season like they were the shit and didn’t put the effort in and Demko wasn’t Demko. Once they had a losing start, everything just started to cave in. Are you going to say yeah that Miller signing really made the team act like little dickheads thinking they were the shit?

 

[Vector]

I don’t think Benn and MDZ are particularly bad comparisons. I don’t think they make a lot of sense when you get into any specifics but as bottom-of-the-roster guys brought in by the previous regime, sure. Falls apart a bit since both those guys were very established veterans where you knew exactly what you’re getting and Dermott and Bear have some room to grow with opportunity.

Jordie Benn, however, was far worse than either Bear or Dermott. God he was terrible. Nice beard, though.

 

[EpochLink]

Seriously man? Benning buried us with OEL. Give your head a shake.

Getting OEL was Bennings last attempt to save his job and that failed miserably. We got stuck with Bostons sloppy seconds for 8 years to screw us over.

What a depressing decade for Canucks hockey, this team has fallen off a cliff since 2013.

I used to care so much but now it’s not worth my mental health and well being for this shit. Not paying a single dime out of my pocket to watch this team unless it’s on company dime.

 

[arttk]

Because I never said Pedan, someone else did. I did bring up other names which is why I used them as examples.

Fair enough, going through this whole working so not being able to keep up on who is mentioning what anymore.

 

[gringo]

As in like today? How long do you think that will last? The dude comes up lame at least once a game and limps back to the bench. He could easily be replacement-level by next year. At any rate, it's a question of a couple years before the fat lady.

Easily one of the worst trades that will cripple this franchise for a long time. Need to hope for Early retirement back to Europe/Phoenix or hate to say it LTIR.

In a couple years, will we say "JR/Allvin buried us with JTM"?

Heck, I get the feeling that some fans are already thinking that. We really need the cap to go up by a lot just to make that one less painful.

my brother we re-signed JT … we traded a first round pick for OEL.

 

[arttk]

Found your issue. What are you basing this is on?

"At the very least"

So.. they are maybe top 3 guys? What is happening?

So Bear played as a top 4 a season prior. He is being played with Hughes now. That’s a 4 no?
Dermott I guess will always be behind Hughes and OEL based on how they are paid, but even with Toronto, he seems like he was the guy flirting between 2nd and 3rd pair. So that’s how they have been used.

 

[m9]

I don’t think Benn and MDZ are particularly bad comparisons. I don’t think they make a lot of sense when you get into any specifics but as bottom-of-the-roster guys brought in by the previous regime, sure. Falls apart a bit since both those guys were very established veterans where you knew exactly what you’re getting and Dermott and Bear have some room to grow with opportunity.

Jordie Benn, however, was far worse than either Bear or Dermott. God he was terrible. Nice beard, though.

Benn was awful his first year here but quite good in Year 2.

I didn't mean to open up a can of worms with names like these and not every comparison works. Just to say that management should be able to find capable, 6th/7th guys for free every off-season and not trade off assets to get them. Whether a guy is 27 like MDZ was or 25/26 like Dermott and Bear makes virtually no difference.