Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[BrentSopelsHair]

As a forward heading into his 30s, I really doubt he can keep his production up even at the PPG pace (forget the 99pts season, that's not happening again). Heck, he isn't even PPG right now (but apparently, not producing is a compliment to his play according to him.) Our PP is good, he has been moved back to wing to decrease his responsibilities, he is still very bad defensively, and is now pacing for less than 70pts. That is not a $8M player.

Also, I'm pretty sure during the North division, JTM was already giving up on plays. I specifically remember Holtby giving him the death stare for just letting Matthews goes in alone uncontested. He has always been a problem, it was just his counting stats hiding it from criticism. Things are only going to get worse from here on out, barring some sort of attitude and work ethic change.

Gotta say though, him saying this out loud is one of the funnier Canucks quotes of the past few years. Just incredible levels of either self-delusion or not giving a flying f*** about respecting the intelligence of the media and fans

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

benning found highmore, motte and juholevi which was a MUCH better 4th line than whatever combination of joshua, lazar, studnicka, aman you want to put out

Ok now do his 8 years of acquisitions and compare them to 1 year of current management.

 

[Peen]

Even if we finish bottom five this season, have they even finished their restructuring of the amateur scouting staff?

Because the early returns on having Lekk ranked seventh have been shocking.

 

[arttk]

I hate Benning. Probably more than you. I think you just exaggerate and your agenda of defending every management move these new guys have made is strange. Calling me his white knight for thinking the new regime is following a similar path is reetarded.


Yes they all look similar. Certainly not “the complete opposite”. For some reason you think the current blue liners are something special. They look like third pair types to me. Just like the list you’ve given.


Hamonic signed a one year $1.2m contract, so definitely along the same lines of Dermott, Bear, and Stillman.

I mean you are the one brining in the list of Benning failed signings and saying see look at that.

Hamonic at 1.2M was a fine signing, but in typical Benning fashion, the 3x3 is what differentiate it from any of the signings this management group has made so far. It’s like you are only looking at one aspect of Benning and completely ignoring the other aspect that makes Benning f***ing Benning.

Dermott and Bear at the very worst are like 5th guys where majority of Benning’s signings outside of Schmidt and Hamonic are barely NHL dman. Like almost all the guys Benning traded for are out of the league almost immediately after we let them go, that’s how bad they are. Saying mmm they look like Dermott and Bear to me is really underselling how bad the Benning D were. If Bear and Dermott gets let go today, they would have no issues getting a next team and have some probability of being on a top4 role for some teams.

 

[racerjoe]

pedan was a 22 year old who'd shown well in the AHL when the canucks acquired him. travis dermott was a 25 year old who struggled to stay in an NHL lineup that lacked quality on defense. pedan was a bad acquisition but had better upside than dermott. dermott is only marginally better than a guy you can get for free like burroughs or wolanin

at the age of 20, so 2 years younger than Pedan Dermott had played over 100 NHL games, and he has pretty much been an NHL regular since. I don't see your comparison.

 

[credulous]

Even if we finish bottom five this season, have they even finished their restructuring of the amateur scouting staff?

Because the early returns on having Lekk ranked seventh have been shocking.

lekkerimaki was not a great pick but i don't think it's that pick is a very useful barometer of the current regime's amateur scouting. the whole draft class was messed up due to covid. it's probably the least scouted group of players in decades. there'll be a ton of first round busts in this draft and probably lots of late round surprises

 

[gringo]

pedan was a 22 year old who'd shown well in the AHL when the canucks acquired him. travis dermott was a 25 year old who struggled to stay in an NHL lineup that lacked quality on defense. pedan was a bad acquisition but had better upside than dermott. dermott is only marginally better than a guy you can get for free like burroughs or wolanin

Pedan couldn’t take an nhl shift, Dermott can. Pedan couldn’t even stick enough to be the 7th guy eating popcorn every night. What are you talking about?

 

[credulous]

Dermott and Bear at the very worst are like 5th guys where majority of Benning’s signings outside of Schmidt and Hamonic are barely NHL dman. Like almost all the guys Benning traded for are out of the league almost immediately after we let them go, that’s how bad they are. Saying mmm they look like Dermott and Bear to me is really underselling how bad the Benning D were. If Bear and Dermott gets let go today, they would have no issues getting a next team and have some probability of being on a top4 role for some teams.

you're massively overrating bear and dermott. they're both fringe nhl guys who are more likely to be out of the league in 3 seasons than in a top 6 role anywhere. if either of them fail to stick in vancouver this is probably their last real nhl shot

 

[Fatass]

But at this moment we are not rebuilding. So there is no plan to rebuild.

What are we doing then? It's not rebuilding, but we are going to draft (again) in the position of a rebuilding team. I just don't see a plan that makes sense, considering where we are. IMO our owner will not allow a proper rebuild, yet we appear to be defaulting into one.

 

[arttk]

pedan was a 22 year old who'd shown well in the AHL when the canucks acquired him. travis dermott was a 25 year old who struggled to stay in an NHL lineup that lacked quality on defense. pedan was a bad acquisition but had better upside than dermott. dermott is only marginally better than a guy you can get for free like burroughs or wolanin

Pedan didn’t show well, that’s why NYI were happy to give up on him. We paid a 3rd for a AHLer. Dermott at the very least was a NHLer for the past 5 seasons. Do you not get how vast of a gap those 2 guys are? I do find it amusing that you would look at a guy who has played 270ish games as a 2nd or 3rd paring guy and say yeah that’s the same as the guys who have never managed to crack the NHL.

 

[racerjoe]

What are we doing then? It's not rebuilding, but we are going to draft (again) in the position of a rebuilding team. I just don't see a plan that makes sense, considering where we are. IMO our owner will not allow a proper rebuild, yet we appear to be defaulting into one.

The popular term I think is retooling. We will build around current parts mainly Petey, Hughes, and Demko.

 

[credulous]

Pedan couldn’t take an nhl shift, Dermott can. Pedan couldn’t even stick enough to be the 7th guy eating popcorn every night. What are you talking about?

this is the worst collection of players to play defense for vancouver i can remember and there's been some really bad groups. how do you reconcile bear and dermott being good with this team's results?

 

[4Twenty]

I mean you are the one brining in the list of Benning failed signings and saying see look at that.

Hamonic at 1.2M was a fine signing, but in typical Benning fashion, the 3x3 is what differentiate it from any of the signings this management group has made so far. It’s like you are only looking at one aspect of Benning and completely ignoring the other aspect that makes Benning f***ing Benning.

Dermott and Bear at the very worst are like 5th guys where majority of Benning’s signings outside of Schmidt and Hamonic are barely NHL dman. Like almost all the guys Benning traded for are out of the league almost immediately after we let them go, that’s how bad they are. Saying mmm they look like Dermott and Bear to me is really underselling how bad the Benning D were. If Bear and Dermott gets let go today, they would have no issues getting a next team and have some probability of being on a top4 role for some teams.

There was never a 3x3 to Hamonic.

The narrative about extensions is just moving the goalposts.

We don’t know what kind of extensions they would get and I disagree at #5 a worst labels for either. Bear couldn’t even beat out Benning UDFA, Jalen Chatfield in Carolina.


Sure they might be 4’s in Chicago, Anaheim, or Arizona but is that good?

 

[credulous]

Pedan didn’t show well, that’s why NYI were happy to give up on him. We paid a 3rd for a AHLer. Dermott at the very least was a NHLer for the past 5 seasons. Do you not get how vast of a gap those 2 guys are? I do find it amusing that you would look at a guy who has played 270ish games as a 2nd or 3rd paring guy and say yeah that’s the same as the guys who have never managed to crack the NHL.

i don't think the pedan trade was good and i think dermott is better than pedan ever was but if you can't see why trading a 3rd for a 22 year old stuck behind a deep group of blueliners is different than trading a 3rd for a 25 year old who can't crack a shaky group of blueliners then i dunno what to tell you

 

[LeftHandedDman]

The fans can handle a rebuild.
Does ownership or management?

 

[gringo]

this is the worst collection of players to play defense for vancouver i can remember and there's been some really bad groups. how do you reconcile bear and dermott being good with this team's results?

Where did I say they were good? Just because I reject the absurd Pedan comparison doesn’t mean I think these guys have been good. To me Dermott looks like a NHL 7th Dman and Bear looks like a bottom pairing guy who might be able to do some fill in duty on the 2nd pair in a pinch. That’s miles better than Pedan.

 

[Peen]

lekkerimaki was not a great pick but i don't think it's that pick is a very useful barometer of the current regime's amateur scouting. the whole draft class was messed up due to covid. it's probably the least scouted group of players in decades. there'll be a ton of first round busts in this draft and probably lots of late round surprises

I mean, didn’t his two linemates get picked within five picks of him? If they had him ranked that high, they clearly saw him as the driver/most likely to turn out relative to those linemates.

Only really going off of what I see Cam Robinson throw out there but the other two seem to be performing decently well unlike Lekk.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Huh?

The guy asked when the last functional Dman was acquired. I listed a few.


Stillman, Bear, Dermott = 2nd, 3rd, 5th and one absolutely blows

Schmidt 3rd
Hamonic free
Stecher free


The idea it’s miles different and requires some kind of nuance is weird. The other posters point still stands. If someone was in a coma for the last 13 months and woke up, things would feel nearly identical.


Seems like the same thing, retooling on the fly. Miller extension and Boeser extension are more impactful than putting together a 4th line and some bottom pair defenders.


Having to now likely move the captain after signing Miller seems Benning AF, and even if the rental return is decent, it still looks like a half assed retool. I mean it’s better to get something than nothing but it would have the air of signing Myers to usher Tanev out the door.

Seems kind of convenient to completely ignore the total body of work and assets spent on defencemen by Benning.

Sbisa as part of the Kesler trade when far better options were available.
Clendening for Forsling
Gudbranson for McCann + 33rd overall
OEL (and Garland) for 9th overall + 2nd
Pedan for a 3rd
Larsen for a 5th
Pouliot for a 4th
Bartkowski

Half these players were never NHLers, yet decent assets were spent on them. Current management has spent minor assets on NHL players. Current management’s trades for defencemen are like Benning’s best trades.

 

[credulous]

Where did I say they were good? Just because I reject the absurd Pedan comparison doesn’t mean I think these guys have been good. To me Dermott looks like a NHL 7th Dman and Bear looks like a bottom pairing guy who might be able to do some fill in duty on the 2nd pair in a pinch. That’s miles better than Pedan.

i wasn't saying pedan is better than dermott/bear. he's definitely not and never was. i'm saying giving up a 3rd for pedan when he was 22 and stuck without a spot on a deep islanders team is way more defensible than giving up a 3rd for a 25 year old dermott who had fallen out of favour on a toronto team with a questionable group of defenders

 

[Fatass]

The popular term I think is retooling. We will build around current parts mainly Petey, Hughes, and Demko.

What do we do with Miller, Boeser, and OEL? How do we move out those contracts?
IMO we committed (the owner's direction) to building around a core that included the three you mention plus, Miller and likely Bo. And we have Boeser and OEL and Myers on big contracts for guys (who are impossible to move without huge cost to us or taking back equally bad contracts. Our direction seems to make no sense considering the current club.

 

[Nucker101]

I mean, didn’t his two linemates get picked within five picks of him? If they had him ranked that high, they clearly saw him as the driver/most likely to turn out relative to those linemates.

Only really going off of what I see Cam Robinson throw out there but the other two seem to be performing decently well unlike Lekk.

Sabres apparently have implemented some private model analytics into their drafting and overall hockey ops and Minny has Brackett so it’ll be interesting to see how the careers play out between the trio.

 

[arttk]

you're massively overrating bear and dermott. they're both fringe nhl guys who are more likely to be out of the league in 3 seasons than in a top 6 role anywhere. if either of them fail to stick in vancouver this is probably their last real nhl shot

Not really, they are the very least 3rd paring guys paid as such. The knock with them has always been, they can fill in top4 roles for some time but lack the consistency to be top4 guys. I have zero doubts that they would do better in an environment where it’s actually functional.

That’s a vast difference compared to 90% of the Benning trash that can be described as AHLers forced onto the NHL roster to save face.

 

[gringo]

i wasn't saying pedan is better than dermott/bear. he's definitely not and never was. i'm saying giving up a 3rd for pedan when he was 22 and stuck without a spot on a deep islanders team is way more defensible than giving up a 3rd for a 25 year old dermott who had fallen out of favour on a toronto team with a questionable group of defenders

Pedan was never going to make it. It wasn’t defensible then or now

 

[Canucker]

Can you think more beyond the cap dimension?
Benning is horrible in every single aspect of GMing.
If he was still here, he would probably have signed a bunch of “top 6” forwards that don’t produce like one but are paid like one and with term.
He wouldnt have gotten anyone like Dermott and Bear because he hasn’t shown that he knows wtf is a NHL dman nevermind if he did went out to get a NHL dman via trade, he would’ve paid a 1st or 2nd and more. The last time he paid a 5th for a d he got f***ing Holm. Does anyone remember what Holm was like? I sure don’t because he was so bad he was barely on the roster that finished at the bottom of the league.

Do you think he would’ve paid Miller 8M? Hell he would’ve signed him to like 9 or 10 with like 8 years term considering he put up 99points. Ditto with Bo, he would’ve paid him whatever the f*** him and his agent asked for ala the Pearson signing. Well the agent said it would take this so therefore I give him this.

Hell look at Abby at how dysfunctional it was with Benning vs now.

Do you guys seriously still have no f***ing clue what Benning would do after 8 years of it? Take the worst deal this management group made, just assume that player would be worse, paid more with term and acquired with a bunch of picks and then multiply those deals that until we are sitting against the cap and then start tacking on bonuses that will bleed to the next season. That’s Benning.

Dude...I'm not saying they are the same or worse than Benning, I'm saying by what has happened SO FAR...you wouldn't be able to tell if this were a Benning managed team or not...because there is no tangible evidence of improvement...and I'll stand by that.

 

[tantalum]

I’ll be honest, if they f***up in the off-season I’ll be on your side. You can quote me on it so no need to say we(or me) are moving goalpostsz

exactly.

Hell I think everyone who is looking at the deadline and offseason as the truly defining moments for this management have wholly owned up that they made moves and mistakes that make the job a lot more difficult moving forward. I'm not blind to that. I just have a fundamental belief that the major changes were never going to start until now based on the contract situation. And really outside of everything other than the Miller extension, I don't think the moves they made had truly negative effects on potential future plans. And no not even the Mikheyev contract matters moving forward as I think he's a tangible improvement on the wing and the cap will start to go up. Thus far, he's living up to that deal IMO (or very nearly so).