Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[TruGr1t]

My favourite stat from this year is that Miller is only good when *drum roll* .... he's on Horvat's wing. Exquisite.

 

[arttk]

Schmidt.
Stecher.
Hamonic. (better numbers here than Bear)
Burroughs

If definitely feels the same to me. Same core. Same market misplays. Same trash team. Same awful blueline. Same retool on the fly mentality. Same sending out picks.

Probably best not to ridicule other folks analysis when serving up crap yourself.

Oh hello Benning white knight, were you always so?

I said acquired via picks, so I’ll give you Schmidt. Hell even in the context of Schmidt, Vegas has been paying other teams to take players off of them and yet Benning paid them instead to help solve their cap problems, that’s Benning in a nut shell for you.
Hamonic was a terrible signing considering what is contract was despite how meh he was. He’s like the opposite to Bear and Dermott. Hamonic as borderline 2nd paring guy was handed a 3x3 contract with ntc. ?
Bear 1.8M and Dermott 1.5M with expiring contract is like the complete opposite.

Here are list of Benning trade acquisitions.
3rd for Schmidt
4th for Bowey
4th and Pedan for Pouliot
McCann, 2nd and 4th for Gub
5th for Larsen
Forsling for Clendening
3rd and Mallet for Pedan

Can you say that the Bear and Dermott trades are anything like that he trades just listed above aside from the Schmidt trade?

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I still don’t think Miller is as big as a problem people here thinks. He’s only a problem if he plays like this for the rest of his contract and if he plays like the Miller for the past 4 seasons for like 4-5 years out of his 7 year extension, then that extension is perfectly fine especially in the context of OEL contract being gone and the cap going up.

As a forward heading into his 30s, I really doubt he can keep his production up even at the PPG pace (forget the 99pts season, that's not happening again). Heck, he isn't even PPG right now (but apparently, not producing is a compliment to his play according to him.) Our PP is good, he has been moved back to wing to decrease his responsibilities, he is still very bad defensively, and is now pacing for less than 70pts. That is not a $8M player.

Also, I'm pretty sure during the North division, JTM was already giving up on plays. I specifically remember Holtby giving him the death stare for just letting Matthews goes in alone uncontested. He has always been a problem, it was just his counting stats hiding it from criticism. Things are only going to get worse from here on out, barring some sort of attitude and work ethic change.

 

[Nucker101]

The wait and see crowd when it comes to opinions on this new regime is going to be the angriest later on because they still have hope right now despite the obvious signs that management is doubling down on this mediocre core and continuing the same difficult strategy that Bennning horribly failed at.

Eventually the “at least he’s not Benning” coping mechanism will run its course.

I don’t care about Bear, Lazar, Aman and Joshua if you sign Boeser, Miller and are still trying to sign Horvat.

 

[Peen]

The wait and see crowd when it comes to opinions on this new regime is going to be the angriest later on because they still have hope right now despite the obvious signs that management is doubling down on this mediocre core and continuing the same difficult strategy that Bennning horribly failed at.

Eventually the “at least he’s not Benning” coping mechanism will run its course.

I don’t care about Bear, Lazar, Aman and Joshua if you sign Boeser, Miller and are still trying to sign Horvat.

It also should be noted that while these guys have been “decent”, along with most of their cheap bets outside of Stillman, none of these players have performed outside of what was reasonably expected when they actually needed some of these players to improve.

Neither of Bear or Dermott look like more than 6-7 D, none of the forwards look like anything more than 4th liners or depth pieces.

 

[arttk]

The wait and see crowd when it comes to opinions on this new regime is going to be the angriest later on because they still have hope right now despite the obvious signs that management is doubling down on this mediocre core and continuing the same difficult strategy that Bennning horribly failed at.

Eventually the “at least he’s not Benning” coping mechanism will run its course.

I don’t care about Bear, Lazar, Aman and Joshua if you sign Boeser, Miller and are still trying to sign Horvat.

I’ll be honest, if they f***up in the off-season I’ll be on your side. You can quote me on it so no need to say we(or me) are moving goalpostsz

 

[Peen]

We are also on like year ten of the canucks being worse than the average poster here expected.

Clearly we aren’t pessimistic enough as a board.

 

[Vector]

I’ll be honest, if they f***up in the off-season I’ll be on your side. You can quote me on it so no need to say we(or me) are moving goalpostsz

Yeah...they've got until the end of offseason before I just completely check out. I won't be angry. I'll just focus on my other hobbies. Probably be a better father to my kids.

 

[arttk]

We are also on like year ten of the canucks being worse than the average poster here expected.

Clearly we aren’t pessimistic enough as a board.

I don’t know why we want to pin the failing of Benning on the current management group.

 

[vancityluongo]

I’ll repeat what I have said for a year now.

What I said at first was that we would need A grade management with a high volume of action and high hit rates if they wanted to turn things around quickly.

C grade, or even B grade management wouldn’t be good enough because their starting position is so bad. I thought they made the right decision holding onto Miller past the TDL because I felt the package they could get after would be comparable at worst to the NYR 1st + Chytil/Kravtsov + Nils offer. They then did get pretty close to the 13th pick at the draft, without knowing what else was a part of that deal.

Their cheap bets were not as bad as the Pouliot, Vey, Sbisa, Clendenning, Granlund tier - albeit they also haven’t had a noticeable win yet either.

The problem is that this management, and even posters like @MS, could not see the forest for the trees. The notion of trading for a second round pick was laughed at. Sure trading a guy like Garland for a second after his ES point totals last season wouldn’t have felt great, but that cap flexibility and second rounder got Marino. The idea of not qualifying Boeser seemingly was never considered, or else they probably would have leaked it because this organization is very concerned about PR of moves they make. Instead, they make a stupid signing and people like Drance praise it for some reason. Then, they panic with Miller. I also like Mikheyev, and he has proven to have been a good signing and not the horror show @VanillaCoke claimed him to be, but the roster was so flawed and so capped out with excess winger salary that there were unintended costs associated with signing Mik.

Then they don’t want to take a step back or take on short term money according to every report a year ago - Rutherford saying taking back money isn’t something they’re looking at. Imagine they just made the necessary moves when they came in in January.

I also want to make one thing clear. The type of package you should be willing to take is situational. If you’re going for a tear down and want to be bad, you take “perceived below market offers” for guys like Debrincat because it positions your team better. When you’re trying to do a quick retool, you need to maximize your best assets (Miller last year, Horvat this year). That is what makes this path so hard.

This management group hasn’t solved anything. In a vacuum, they have been C grade. I don’t think any less is fair.

But in regards to your point, relative to Benning’s historically bad F, it’s a huge improvement.

Relative to the A+ they would have needed to get us out of this mess in the timeline Rutherford set of two years, it is not good enough and we are an unserious franchise that will not compete for at least a decade unless they have a willingness to change direction.

They don’t have the balls to do anything. They haven’t even fired the coach they hate. They haven’t sorted a new practice facility which was reportedly a big deal a year ago. The whole Doerrie/Castonguay debacle looks awful for the organization. Management hiding from the media. No improvement in accountability, anything.

very well said

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I’ll be honest, if they f***up in the off-season I’ll be on your side. You can quote me on it so no need to say we(or me) are moving goalpostsz

You wont be the only one eating crow

 

[Peen]

I don’t know why we want to pin the failing of Benning on the current management group.

I hate the blame previous management thing.

If you are not being proactive enough as a new management group to correct the position that you came into, then the blame shifts.

I said this all the moment they signed Miller. They can’t blame previous management anymore. They decided that they were going to keep going all in on a path that required them to be competitive for the next five years before Miller gets really old - and that timeline is inclusive of this season which is already toast because they had no flexibility if things went sideways.

@MikeK are you the same guy on twitter?

 

[Fatass]

I hate the blame previous management thing.

If you are not being proactive enough as a new management group to correct the position that you came into, then the shift blames.

I said this all the moment they signed Miller. They can’t blame previous management anymore. They decided that they were going to keep going all in on a path that required them to be competitive for the next five years before Miller gets really old - and that timeline is inclusive of this season which is already toast because they had no flexibility if things went sideways.

@MikeK are you the same guy on twitter?

Can we (should we) lay blame at the feet of ownership? Mr. Aquilini is the constant and the path of management seems the same regardless of regime.

 

[credulous]

Eh, Dim wouldn’t have been able to land Kuzmenko nor would he target cheaper depth players like Lazar, Aman, and Joshua. He also likely would not acquire players like Bear and Dermott as he preferred shitty, overpaid defencemen.

benning found highmore, motte and juholevi which was a MUCH better 4th line than whatever combination of joshua, lazar, studnicka, aman you want to put out

 

[racerjoe]

I’ll be honest, if they f***up in the off-season I’ll be on your side. You can quote me on it so no need to say we(or me) are moving goalpostsz

Yeah...they've got until the end of offseason before I just completely check out. I won't be angry. I'll just focus on my other hobbies. Probably be a better father to my kids.

Something I have been saying for a long time.

If they screw up this offseason Petey leaves and then there is no doubt we will have to rebuild, or if they screw up the cap somehow more than it is, we are screwed.

The margin is thin, we get that, it just hasn't ended.

 

[4Twenty]

Oh hello Benning white knight, were you always so?

I said acquired via picks, so I’ll give you Schmidt. Hell even in the context of Schmidt, Vegas has been paying other teams to take players off of them and yet Benning paid them instead to help solve their cap problems, that’s Benning in a nut shell for you.
Hamonic was a terrible signing considering what is contract was despite how meh he was. He’s like the opposite to Bear and Dermott. Hamonic as borderline 2nd paring guy was handed a 3x3 contract with ntc. ?
Bear 1.8M and Dermott 1.5M with expiring contract is like the complete opposite.

Here are list of Benning trade acquisitions.
3rd for Schmidt
4th for Bowey
4th and Pedan for Pouliot
McCann, 2nd and 4th for Gub
5th for Larsen
Forsling for Clendening
3rd and Mallet for Pedan

Can you say that the Bear and Dermott trades are anything like that he trades just listed above aside from the Schmidt trade?

I hate Benning. Probably more than you. I think you just exaggerate and your agenda of defending every management move these new guys have made is strange. Calling me his white knight for thinking the new regime is following a similar path is reetarded.


Yes they all look similar. Certainly not “the complete opposite”. For some reason you think the current blue liners are something special. They look like third pair types to me. Just like the list you’ve given.


Hamonic signed a one year $1.2m contract, so definitely along the same lines of Dermott, Bear, and Stillman.

 

[MikeK]

I hate the blame previous management thing.

If you are not being proactive enough as a new management group to correct the position that you came into, then the blame shifts.

I said this all the moment they signed Miller. They can’t blame previous management anymore. They decided that they were going to keep going all in on a path that required them to be competitive for the next five years before Miller gets really old - and that timeline is inclusive of this season which is already toast because they had no flexibility if things went sideways.

@MikeK are you the same guy on twitter?

Probably not. I deleted my twitter back in the summer. Before that though I was pretty active.

 

[credulous]

Here are list of Benning trade acquisitions.
3rd for Schmidt
4th for Bowey
4th and Pedan for Pouliot
McCann, 2nd and 4th for Gub
5th for Larsen
Forsling for Clendening
3rd and Mallet for Pedan

Can you say that the Bear and Dermott trades are anything like that he trades just listed above aside from the Schmidt trade?

apart from gudbranson and the forsling/clendening swap all of those trades are better than the dermott trade. the pedan trade is very close. most are basically the same as the bear or studnicka trades. pouliot played 133 games for the canucks. i bet that ends up being more than aman, studnicka, stillman and probably bear play

 

[Peen]

Can we (should we) lay blame at the feet of ownership? Mr. Aquilini is the constant and the path of management seems the same regardless of regime.

Sure, but not solely. Yes it seems as if ownership has been cheap in certain ways over the past decade, but ownership has at least put the organization in a position where they are not an overly budget conscious team that usually five-ten other teams have
to struggle to balance. The management groups being like 25th/32 teams since 2012 without being a cap floor team or ever intentionally tanking can’t solely be put at ownership groups feet.

Don’t get me wrong, fuuck that extremely stupid cringe slumlord.

 

[arttk]

As a forward heading into his 30s, I really doubt he can keep his production up even at the PPG pace (forget the 99pts season, that's not happening again). Heck, he isn't even PPG right now (but apparently, not producing is a compliment to his play according to him.) Our PP is good, he has been moved back to wing to decrease his responsibilities, he is still very bad defensively, and is now pacing for less than 70pts. That is not a $8M player.

Also, I'm pretty sure during the North division, JTM was already giving up on plays. I specifically remember Holtby giving him the death stare for just letting Matthews goes in alone uncontested. He has always been a problem, it was just his counting stats hiding it from criticism. Things are only going to get worse from here on out, barring some sort of attitude and work ethic change.

Sure those are fair takes. I think Miller’s play is highly dependent on his mood. Like I think it’s fair to say at least for now that his lackluster play is a result of where his head is at vs where his body is at.
The debate I see between him and Horvat is that, is Horvat’s play more dependent on his athleticism and less on his mood. So as he ages into the 30’s, the odds of him producing the same is obviously less. So what’s more likely to happen, Miller’s continual bad mood or Bo’s eventual physical decline?

I think work ethic and team culture needs to be changed regardless of us keeping Miller or Bo or neither. So if they are not successful with it, then yeah Miller is going to be a ugly signing but if they are able to change it via coaching and more roster changes, then Miller could be good for longer. Like I said, yes he look a awful this year but at the very least he is still playing above his current contract value. Will he do that next year? Who the f*** knows and if he doesn’t then it’s going to be apparent that is a big mistake. It’s that a cop out? No. Because if he plays well next season then it’s a moot point.

 

[Fatass]

Something I have been saying for a long time.

If they screw up this offseason Petey leaves and then there is no doubt we will have to rebuild, or if they screw up the cap somehow more than it is, we are screwed.

The margin is thin, we get that, it just hasn't ended.

I would like to see a plan if we are going to rebuild. I want us to but management needs to plan their bottom feeding to coincide with really good draft classes - like this one of 2023. It's like when Benning got those high picks from bad seasons it came without any plan but rather by default. I'm getting the same feeling from this group. Their is no plan to build through the draft. It's just a strange (and IMO bad) way to build a winner.

 

[arttk]

apart from gudbranson and the forsling/clendening swap all of those trades are better than the dermott trade. the pedan trade is very close. most are basically the same as the bear or studnicka trades. pouliot played 133 games for the canucks. i bet that ends up being more than aman, studnicka, stillman and probably bear play

How the f*** is the Pedan and Pouliot trade better than Dermott? Pedan wasn’t even good for the AHL. Pouliot was like the bottom of all NHL dman and arguably shouldn’t even play in the NHL when he was here.

 

[Fatass]

Sure, but not solely. Yes it seems as if ownership has been cheap in certain ways over the past decade, but ownership has at least put the organization in a position where they are not an overly budget conscious team that usually five-ten other teams have
to struggle to balance. The management groups being like 25th/32 teams since 2012 without being a cap floor team or ever intentionally tanking can’t solely be put at ownership groups feet.

Don’t get me wrong, fuuck that extremely stupid cringe slumlord.

I agree that the "slum lord" does spend on the club. But it's the path he seems to insist his management follow that I think is wrong. There's never any acceptance that moving core pieces for futures (and taking a step back) would be the best way to build a better team.

 

[racerjoe]

I would like to see a plan if we are going to rebuild. I want us to but management needs to plan their bottom feeding to coincide with really good draft classes - like this one of 2023. It's like when Benning got those high picks from bad seasons it came without any plan but rather by default. I'm getting the same feeling from this group. Their is no plan to build through the draft. It's just a strange (and IMO bad) way to build a winner.

But at this moment we are not rebuilding. So there is no plan to rebuild.

 

[credulous]

How the f*** is the Pedan and Pouliot trade better than Dermott? Pedan wasn’t even good for the AHL. Pouliot was like the bottom of all NHL dman and arguably shouldn’t even play in the NHL when he was here.

pedan was a 22 year old who'd shown well in the AHL when the canucks acquired him. travis dermott was a 25 year old who struggled to stay in an NHL lineup that lacked quality on defense. pedan was a bad acquisition but had better upside than dermott. dermott is only marginally better than a guy you can get for free like burroughs or wolanin