Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[arttk]

"Oh no we don't have assets to beat them in a bidding war, let's give up". That is just awful logic. The team with the most picks would win every trade by just offering up a 7th rounder.



He didn't go for that much we couldn't have been it. Easily

No we got in a bidding war with them and then we didn’t have enough. That was what happened.

To argue that well if we have gotten more then we could’ve beaten them doesnt hold up considering how much assets we could get vs how much assets NJ had. There is a higher chance that we could’ve beaten NJ but it’s not like if we traded Miller, the odds of us landing Marino becomes 100%.
He didn’t go for that much because the bidding stopped. It’s like you can’t look back at an auction and assume that you could’ve made the same bid and win.

 

[Jyrki21]

Even if the deal was "objectively bad" (not really but whatever), that honestly didn't matter.

What mattered was making the best decision going forward, even if the best option was "objectively bad", so long as it was better than the other options. The reasonable people here wanted Miller traded at last year's deadline for the best available package because it would've generated the best possible return and would have avoided a moronic extension.

For what it's worth, I wanted him traded at the deadline first and foremost because I'm paranoid of injury. I didn't love the offering, but I was willing to take a haircut on his value for the certainty. When it didn't happen, I was a bit miffed but was willing to consider there could be more suitors in the offseason (so all's well that ends well, etc.).

What I didn't want to do was start this season with him, again being convinced he'd get injured or otherwise see his value tank. I thought there was also a possibility of losing him at the end of the year for nothing if the team flirted with the playoffs, but still figured they'd actively try to trade him (for worse value now) once the season began.

Tellingly, I never once considered they actually would extend him. Like, I didn't even count it as a possibility when weighing the implications of each of the trade windows.

This time, with Horvat, I'm not ruling it out anymore. Frankie don't lose his stars.

 

[me2]

No we got in a bidding war with them and then we didn’t have enough. That was what happened.

To argue that well if we have gotten more then we could’ve beaten them doesnt hold up considering how much assets we could get vs how much assets NJ had. There is a higher chance that we could’ve beaten NJ but it’s not like if we traded Miller, the odds of us landing Marino becomes 100%.
He didn’t go for that much because the bidding stopped. It’s like you can’t look back at an auction and assume that you could’ve made the same bid and win.

Ty Smith and a 3rd. I call bollicks on not being able to outbid that.

 

[Nucker101]

Ty Smith and a 3rd. I call bollicks on not being able to outbid that.

I wonder if Rathbone + 2nd would've gotten it done

 

[me2]

The only reason to bring up stillman in that context is to paint this management group as horrible talent evaluators. Which is a fair take if all their other acquisitions are in similar mode.
Stillman sticks out like a sore thumb when you look at his qualities compared to all their other pro acquisitions. It’s almost like they didn’t target him.

Yet they refuse to waive him...

 

[me2]

If we decide to tank now we are going to lose Hughes EP anyways. To pretend that we can strip it all down and keep them is pure ignorance. The choice has always been, try to make it work and see if you can make it work within those two’s timeframe or lose them.

The fact that they are going towards a different direction doesn’t mean that it will not work. I have no idea if it will and even if we have the best GM in league history, it will take more than one off season to fix never mind the fact the flat cap is preventing any deals to be made anywhere. you guys are so mind f***ed by Benning that anything that goes against the idea of tanking must mean that it will fail. Snap out of the that shit, this team is no longer managed by Benning. Benning is GOAT at being terrible, there is no other Benning.

Layout a Rutherford plan, starting 12 months ago and continuing 2-4 until the team is good. When do we get good? How do you think the plan is going now we have seen 12 months of it.

 

[bossram]

Draft picks and prospects is what NJ is loaded with. You think we can out bid a team that is oozing with draft and prospects? That’s the thing JR already said we were in it and Pens like NJ offer more.

That’s the beauty of your hindsight, oh if we traded Miller at the TDL we might have enough assets to get Marino if NJ who has more assets anyways decides not to go into a bidding war with us. But if they do then what?

The price paid was a 3rd + Smith. PIT was ditching Marino for cap reasons. If you want to call that a bidding war...then you do you bud.

You like to claim things I've been saying for months as "hindsight". It's not. My views have been extremely consistent during the Rutherford era. I wanted Miller traded. That trade would have given them more liquid assets and more flexibility.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

For what it's worth, I wanted him traded at the deadline first and foremost because I'm paranoid of injury. I didn't love the offering, but I was willing to take a haircut on his value for the certainty. When it didn't happen, I was a bit miffed but was willing to consider there could be more suitors in the offseason (so all's well that ends well, etc.).

What I didn't want to do was start this season with him, again being convinced he'd get injured or otherwise see his value tank. I thought there was also a possibility of losing him at the end of the year for nothing if the team flirted with the playoffs, but still figured they'd actively try to trade him (for worse value now) once the season began.

Tellingly, I never once considered they actually would extend him. Like, I didn't even count it as a possibility when weighing the implications of each of the trade windows.

This time, with Horvat, I'm not ruling it out anymore. Frankie don't lose his stars.

You hope that the salary cap will finally be able to stop him. But we do have picks to spare because, well, prospects aren't guaranteed and they can bust, so...

 

[arttk]

Ty Smith and a 3rd. I call bollicks on not being able to outbid that.

The reality as stated by JR was that we made offer and Pens like that more. If we had more assets, yes we could’ve raised it and then NJ certainly could’ve raised their offer too. The only thing you can say is that they valued Marino at a certain price point and whatever was paid for him in the end was deemed too much for this management group.

 

[Breakers]

Of Course Rutherford is coming out swinging for his mistake and defending it.

The vast majority of the league was shocked we resigned him.
nobody knows what this organization direction is.

 

[rypper]

Stillman has really been the only acquisition I haven't liked.

Nobody bats a thousand though.

 

[Wandering Cynic]

I just can't fathom the incompetence of this team. Barring an incredible turn around in the second half of the season, the Canucks are on their way to missing the playoffs for the 7th time in 8 seasons. And in that time management has never made an effort to rebuild properly. It is insanity.

Sunk-cost fallacy at this point.

 

[quat]

The problem is that some of you guys are thinking that this can be fixed fast, it can’t be. Some of the shit left over will take time to fix and mistakes will be made along the way. If you are expecting somebody to come in and fix this in a timely fashion with zero mistakes made, well that person does not exist.

Some of the takes here reminds me how much of a short term thinking and memory some of you all have. Remember last year when some of the folks here were shitting on Petey because of his play. Him being lazy, entitled, busting, yeah JT is this years version of that.

It’s bloody obvious that this management is not in with what is going on this year and is waiting to purge players and coaches at the end of this season. The fact you yearn for that to happen right this instance doesn’t mean it’s not coming this off-season. hell if you are for team tank you should be happy that the management group is letting this play out and go down a death spiral. Why the hell did you think they pulled out Hog, Pod, Aman and Ratbone? So they don’t need to be part of the death spiral towards the bottom of the league.

Regarding Bo, Bo’s the right one to trade because he probably has more trade value than Miller and he will not age into his contract.


He’s gonna be waived. I am not a fan of it, like I said, he is part of the cap dump and he sucks.

What part of me saying he sucks translates to I like it?

I'm notoriously patient, but can definitely post comments that are a knee jerk reaction to the present actions of management or players. This is not such a case.

I know this mess won't be fixed quickly, I just disagree with how they've acted after selling their evaluation of the team. It was a common understanding that the longer Benning was overseeing the team, the length of time it would take to get out from under his mismanagement would be compounding.

I feel this group have made moves that are in opposition to their evaluation and the route they seem to be following looks bleak and unproductive to me.

I've been following this team since they entered the NHL, the Canucks and the Blazers. Of course my take on how things seem to be playing out could be wrong, but frankly it's irritating being strung along by any management group, and that seems to be happening again.

It started to become clearer during the Benning reign of error, that it's more than likely I'll be joining that pantheon of sports fans who never live to see the team they support win a cup. Not only that, but what you actually are forced to watch is such junk.

Pettersson struggling because of injury and a lack of trust in management is one thing. Miller being out of shape and a massive whiner is another. Boeser looking like he can't be bothered to insert himself into a competitive environment after the club has shown him nothing but patience and support is really challenging to witness as a fan. Those are the two big moves, along with the non move of Horvat that are defining this group.

OEL, Myers, the cap and the lack of youth is still on Benning.

I'd have a huge amount of patience for a real course correction, which you seem to suggesting will be happening at the end of this season. I admire your confidence and hope you're correct. Presently, I have my doubts with this group.

 

[m9]

Wait, when did Petey screams at the goalie and smash his stick on the net? When did Petey turn over the puck consistently AND give no crap about backchecking? When did Petey get into yelling match on the ice with other players like Schenn? When did Petey became a 30 years old with a track record of being pouty and difficult?

Petey struggled in the first half of last season no doubt. His shot was gone, his confidence destroyed and he generally looked depressed, but he wasn't being a jackass to his teammates and mailing it in in terms of effort. JTM this season is a whole different animal.

I don't think it's a big deal because it's not something he really did in previous seasons or does now, but the play/plays from last year when the team was scoring big goals and EP looks like he would rather be anywhere else are worse than anything Miller has done. Just an awful look from a guy clearly in a bad spot but embarrassing nonetheless.

 

[arttk]

I'm notoriously patient, but can definitely post comments that are a knee jerk reaction to the present actions of management or players. This is not such a case.

I know this mess won't be fixed quickly, I just disagree with how they've acted after selling their evaluation of the team. It was a common understanding that the longer Benning was overseeing the team, the length of time it would take to get out from under his mismanagement would be compounding.

I feel this group have made moves that are in opposition to their evaluation and the route they seem to be following looks bleak and unproductive to me.

I've been following this team since they entered the NHL, the Canucks and the Blazers. Of course my take on how things seem to be playing out could be wrong, but frankly it's irritating being strung along by any management group, and that seems to be happening again.

It started to become clearer during the Benning reign of error, that it's more than likely I'll be joining that pantheon of sports fans who never live to see the team they support win a cup. Not only that, but what you actually are forced to watch is such junk.

Pettersson struggling because of injury and a lack of trust in management is one thing. Miller being out of shape and a massive whiner is another. Boeser looking like he can't be bothered to insert himself into a competitive environment after the club has shown him nothing but patience and support is really challenging to witness as a fan. Those are the two big moves, along with the non move of Horvat that are defining this group.

OEL, Myers, the cap and the lack of youth is still on Benning.

I'd have a huge amount of patience for a real course correction, which you seem to suggesting will be happening at the end of this season. I admire your confidence and hope you're correct. Presently, I have my doubts with this group.

I mean I am not confident that they are going to be fixing everything. It’s more like I have been angry for long enough, I don’t mind waiting till the off-season to be angry again.
Especially when it’s obvious the macro condition will make trades unlikely till the day of the TDL. Why complain about the group not making trades right now when you know damn well the teams that are interested are waiting to accrue enough cap to do it at TDL.

The whole Miller, Petey and Boeser thing is like proof to me that Bo is an overrated as f*** captain. I remember Bieksa and Hansen talking about how the twins would not let certain shit fly in the room and how tight of a ship they run. If Bo is a good captain, well how the f*** is all this shit being let go right now?

 

[canucksfan]

I just can't fathom the incompetence of this team. Barring an incredible turn around in the second half of the season, the Canucks are on their way to missing the playoffs for the 7th time in 8 seasons. And in that time management has never made an effort to rebuild properly. It is insanity.

And if COVID doesn't happen it's likely 8 seasons in a row.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

And if COVID doesn't happen it's likely 8 seasons in a row.

Terrible. This is the end result of employing a dumbass GM while pressuring him to cut corners to compete faster. Now we have a capped out, subpar team with no prospects. Embarrassing.

 

[gringo]

It's not. I just hate the "wait and see" excuse. That's exactly what it is: An excuse.

If they make good moves, I will call them out as good moves. If they make bad moves, I will call them out as bad moves.

I'm not going to pretend we're in some universe where JR/Allvin have already fixed the Canucks, we just have to "wait and see it".

Sure you can call out the excuse without going so low as to compare people to Benning supporters. That’s just plain disrespect!

 

[bossram]

Sure you can call out the excuse without going so low as to compare people to Benning supporters. That’s just plain disrespect!

If you’re resorting to classic Benning-isms, you should deservedly get called out.

 

[m9]

New management, same unintentional tank.

 

[LordBacon]

Oh just rebuild already ffs

 

[tantalum]

I mentioned in the game thread and likely in numerous other threads that I have some patience with the managment group. The reason I'm patient with this management group is that they have been consistent with what they see on the ice....a team not willing to or unable to play any sort of system, a team that is not consistent and a team that relies far too much on goaltending. They said it early on and they continue to say it. And now the info trickling down through the media is taking the next step and mentioning significant changes are needed on the ice.

Now some of the moves they've made are moves I wouldn't have made in that context but at this point, IMO, it's neither here nor there. Why? Well because I always thought that they weren't truly going to get a chance to really touch and truly change the meat of this team until this deadline and offseason. I think that was also the assessment they made so they went out and bolstered what they could (wing, a bit more organization depth) and were prepared to let the chips fall where they may.

Now it has been discussed ad nauseum that a couple of signings (Miller was ill advised, I'm still not angry with the Boeser one as it was rock and hard place) have certainly made their job much more difficult going into the deadline and offseason. But, it's still the next 7-8 months that I'm looking at to judge the true direction they take.

Based on what they have and the results this season I build the next few years around:
Kuzmenko
Pettersson
Mikheyev
Hughes
Demko

Why those three forwards? honestly because they form a good first line even if Mik can be inconsistent and isn't at the same level etc. It's a competitive first line. I don't mind putting Horvat as a 4th IF Miller is moved. I don't think, however, they can sign Horvat and look to move Miller later. This is one case where I do think the sequence of moves needs to be in a specific order Move Miller --> sign Horvat. Hell even then I look to see what Horvat might bring back in a trade before signing him. Either way moving Miller is becoming a must. And it will be quite a trick if they can do it and recover from that mistake.

Existing players coming back in trades should be young (say 23 and under) with a concentration on blueline and winger replacements. That doesn't rule out also gathering more picks but given the lack of anything in the system they will need some young NHL talent or very near NHL talent coming back. I know people are going to say "age gap"! Yes and no. Age gap becomes a problem if you do it the Benning way...send out future picks and good existing roster players for players that aren't actually good enough to be anything more than a journeyman. Benning in his age gap moves would successfully make the current team worse and degrade the system overall to also make the future worse. It was quite the trick!

 

[TruGr1t]

Layout a Rutherford plan, starting 12 months ago and continuing 2-4 until the team is good. When do we get good? How do you think the plan is going now we have seen 12 months of it.

The plan has always been the same. To try to tinker around the edges to make this core more competitive. Unfortunately, there seems to be a disconnect between how management values its players and the rest of the league values said players. So it's still "patience" as we wait for the market to pick up on crappy players so we can move Myers, Garland and Pearson at a minimal cost. Then they'll probably try to re-sign Horvat (they won't be able to) and fiddle around with whatever meagre cap space they have remaining while still being able to make a competitive offer for Pettersson.

As far as I can tell, they're sitting around waiting for the market to improve. Will it? Who knows.

They will likely fail because the probability for the confluence of factors to occur that they require to be successful is extremely low. They also continue to completely disregard the farm system.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

I can understand the "don't jump to conclusions on this management group just yet" idea to a certain degree, but I cannot understand justifying it by the fact that they have said all the right things about how this team is in need of a revamp.

This management crew has consistently spoken out of both sides of their mouths thus far, selling change in the market and instead bringing stagnancy and the same old shit. They are now responsible for signing a player for another 7 seasons who might be the worst possible market fit imaginable, a highly-paid powerplay specialist veteran who is absolutely not a leader on a team about to lose their longtime captain, a guy who signed up for 7 years on a team that is destined for utter mediocrity who is a whiny child when he's not on a winning team, a guy who clearly doesn't care about the responsibilities that come with being a highly paid player in a crazy hockey market. Just a colossal error that compounds the decade of other stupid moves that, while not their fault, SHOULD have given context to their decisions that they've made thus far.

Thus far in their more than a calendar year in charge, their wins have been small and their errors have been large, when in order to turn this team around without a scorched earth rebuild they were likely going to need to have an almost unprecedented run of managerial ass-kicking, trade winning and excellence. I am still hopeful that they'll swing some big deal in return for Horvat and that they can get Miller off the books before his NMC kicks in next year, but right now that just seems like an absurd pipe dream given how they have performed to this point

Shit sucks, I hate this team

 

[bossram]

I can understand the "don't jump to conclusions on this management group just yet" idea to a certain degree, but I cannot understand justifying it by the fact that they have said all the right things about how this team is in need of a revamp.

This management crew has consistently spoken out of both sides of their mouths thus far, selling change in the market and instead bringing stagnancy and the same old shit. They are now responsible for signing a player for another 7 seasons who might be the worst possible market fit imaginable, a highly-paid powerplay specialist veteran who is absolutely not a leader on a team about to lose their longtime captain, a guy who signed up for 7 years on a team that is destined for utter mediocrity who is a whiny child when he's not on a winning team, a guy who clearly doesn't care about the responsibilities that come with being a highly paid player in a crazy hockey market. Just a colossal error that compounds the decade of other stupid moves that, while not their fault, SHOULD have given context to their decisions that they've made thus far.

Thus far in their more than a calendar year in charge, their wins have been small and their errors have been large, when in order to turn this team around without a scorched earth rebuild they were likely going to need to have an almost unprecedented run of managerial ass-kicking, trade winning and excellence. I am still hopeful that they'll swing some big deal in return for Horvat and that they can get Miller off the books before his NMC kicks in next year, but right now that just seems like an absurd pipe dream given how they have performed to this point

Shit sucks, I hate this team

Yup Yup Yup. This is why I've been so down on the new management. Are they smarter than Benning? Well yeah, but the bar is starting on the floor. Have they made some useful moves around the edges? Yeah, sure. But it fundamentally doesn't matter when they end up making critical fails and the direction of the club is wrong. Doesn't matter at all.

They've said the right things and done the opposite. Why should anyone be giving them time to "wait and see"?