Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[bossram]

I mean there were no good moves to hang on for the Benning regime. That was pure hope. Here at least we can see that they can convince a prize UFA that every team in the league was on to join us.
They were able to acquire 2 top6 forwards without spending any assets and having those guys fit the profile they want and you guys are like well I don’t see anything promising here.
They spent Hamonic and a 5th rounder to acquire a new defense paring that is in the mold that they said they wanted and all you guys can focus on is why is Myers and OEL still here. Like hello, have you seen their contracts and their play?

The whole Miller thing is like Petey 2.0. People see a player not playing up to their standard and assume that all hope is lost and the future is Loui Eriksson.

And no, I am not advocating that we should be always in the mind of well let’s see what happens next year every year. It actually makes e sense to say that when this is literally their first year here. It’s not even asking for patience, it’s asking for common sense.

They've had one run-through of all of the NHL's key transaction periods: TDL, Draft, and Free Agency. The training wheels are off. They've had an opportunity to make some moves.

Sure, yes, they convinced Kuzmenko to come here. That's good. But it's not an issue of player evaluation, which is a much more important skill. I like Mikheyev and was one of the higher people on him here at the time of the signing. In a vacuum, he is a good addition. But he wasn't an efficient use of the little cap space they had left. I've said I liked going after Bear. The Stillman/Dickinson transaction was stupid.

All that said, those transactions are minor and don't move the needle much. They made a critical failure on JT Miller. They didn't get any cap flexibility. They've been going at a draft pick deficit. And the big errors erase any traction made on the small wins.

 

[m9]

None of it makes any sense its fans desperately making excuses and wearing canucks colored glasses.
Chicago added a cap dump back when they had no need, and he just happens to be a mid 20s age gap RFA, signed for multiple years...

He was clearly a piece van wanted and just like pizza sbisa eventually that info will come out and the cap dump stillman fanclub will be holding the bag again. Just like the dim jim wait and see crowd.

But hey we won the cap space cup to start the year !!

Yup.

And nobody is saying he was a major piece of the deal, they are just saying he was a player that the team wanted to acquire. The reaching for no reason other than to not want a minor "negative" in the pro-scouting ledger is absolutely bizarre.

They had injuries on the blueline. They wanted an NHL-level guy who could step in and play a regular shift on a 3rd pairing. Turns out, he isn't good. So be it, it happens.

 

[racerjoe]

so much reaching

the blackhawks have plenty of worthless contracts to move if needed. the canucks would have got like cameron hillis if this was the point of including a contract (never mind that they only have 45/50 contract slots used)

If you look at my earlier replies I mentioned a few reasons why it was Stillman in particular, but he absolutely was a contract.

Yup.

And nobody is saying he was a major piece of the deal, they are just saying he was a player that the team wanted to acquire. The reaching for no reason other than to not want a minor "negative" in the pro-scouting ledger is absolutely bizarre.

They had injuries on the blueline. They wanted an NHL-level guy who could step in and play a regular shift on a 3rd pairing. Turns out, he isn't good. So be it, it happens.

No one is saying he was a major piece, but we will argue and debate it for pages... and now months.

 

[gringo]

Exactly. Can only judge the moves they've made so far. People like @arttk making these "wait and see" excuses sound just like the BenningBros did for years. Are we just so supposed to assume JR is going to magically make some mega-good moves next offseason?

Jesus. This is really uncalled for.

 

[bossram]

Jesus. This is really uncalled for.

It's not. I just hate the "wait and see" excuse. That's exactly what it is: An excuse.

If they make good moves, I will call them out as good moves. If they make bad moves, I will call them out as bad moves.

I'm not going to pretend we're in some universe where JR/Allvin have already fixed the Canucks, we just have to "wait and see it".

 

[arttk]

They've had one run-through of all of the NHL's key transaction periods: TDL, Draft, and Free Agency. The training wheels are off. They've had an opportunity to make some moves.

Sure, yes, they convinced Kuzmenko to come here. That's good. But it's not an issue of player evaluation, which is a much more important skill. I like Mikheyev and was one of the higher people on him here at the time of the signing. In a vacuum, he is a good addition. But he wasn't an efficient use of the little cap space they had left. I've said I liked going after Bear. The Stillman/Dickinson transaction was stupid.

All that said, those transactions are minor and don't move the needle much. They made a critical failure on JT Miller. They didn't get any cap flexibility. They've been going at a draft pick deficit. And the big errors erase any traction made on the small wins.

That doesn’t change the fact revamping this roster will take a min or 2 off seasons especially when you have anchor contracts everywhere. It’s like how do you move Pearson and Myers? You can’t and you have to wait till their contract winds down to the final year and those moves have a big impact on the roster especially Myers.

This has not been a normal market, like how many % of the teams in the league are operating in LTIR and trades are simply not happening league wide. Until that alleviates, you can’t tell if they are trying to hold onto guys or are they waiting to move on.

That’s why it’s foolish to assume what they want to do based off of this last off-season. I don’t see an issue with Miller, the issue is with Garland, Pearson, Myers, Boeser and also Bo. We know they are trying to move off all those guys and the issue is not just if they are able to do it but what they get back in return. That’s why it makes sense to see what happens because those trades will give us a concrete read on what they value in return, their ability to deal and the pro/amateur scouting ability.

It’s also silly to say Kuz and Mik don’t move the needle. This is hockey, unless you get like a McD, there are rarely any one or two moves that would move the needle. You move it by revamping the roster and you don’t suddenly move out 50%+ or the roster in off-season.

 

[bossram]

That doesn’t change the fact revamping this roster will take a min or 2 off seasons especially when you have anchor contracts everywhere. It’s like how do you move Pearson and Myers? You can’t and you have to wait till their contract winds down to the final year and those moves have a big impact on the roster especially Myers.

This has not been a normal market, like how many % of the teams in the league are operating in LTIR and trades are simply not happening league wide. Until that alleviates, you can’t tell if they are trying to hold onto guys or are they waiting to move on.

That’s why it’s foolish to assume what they want to do based off of this last off-season. I don’t see an issue with Miller, the issue is with Garland, Pearson, Myers, Boeser and also Bo. We know they are trying to move off all those guys and the issue is not just if they are able to do it but what they get back in return. That’s why it makes sense to see what happens because those trades will give us a concrete read on what they value in return, their ability to deal and the pro/amateur scouting ability.

It’s also silly to say Kuz and Mik don’t move the needle. This is hockey, unless you get like a McD, there are rarely any one or two moves that would move the needle. You move it by revamping the roster and you don’t suddenly move out 50%+ or the roster in off-season.

They could have revamped the roster (in a retool way, not a "rebuild) by correctly dealing Miller at the TDL and going after Marino. It was not impossible. Re-signing Miller was a critical fail. Full stop. He was never going to be the 99 point 1C they hoped he was. He is a middling even-strength player who can rack up some PP points. He's not a guy to commit to like they did. Trade Miller for a 1st, Lundkvist, Chytil. Use the extra 1st to acquire Marino. They would now have a totally revamped RD + plus a young center who is performing better at 5v5 than Miller this season.

They didn't do that and instead doubled down on a mediocre roster and tweaked around the edges (with admittedly useful players, but not enough to change the trajectory of the club).

Again, I don't give much credit to signing Kuz. 25 teams would've gladly taken him. They didn't unearth a diamond-in-the-rough no one knew about.

 

[arttk]

They could have revamped the roster (in a retool way, not a "rebuild) by correctly dealing Miller at the TDL and going after Marino. It was not impossible. Re-signing Miller was a critical fail. Full stop. He was never going to be the 99 point 1C they hoped he was. He is a middling even-strength player who can rack up some PP points. He's not a guy to commit to like they did. Trade Miller for a 1st, Lundkvist, Chytil. Use the extra 1st to acquire Marino. They would now have a totally revamped RD + plus a young center who is performing better at 5v5 than Miller this season.

They didn't do that and instead doubled down on a mediocre roster and tweaked around the edges (with admittedly useful players, but not enough to change the trajectory of the club).

Again, I don't give much credit to signing Kuz. 25 teams would've gladly taken him. They didn't unearth a diamond-in-the-rough no one knew about.

I don’t see how the team is that much better if you swap out Miller with Marino. Marino is not like Pronger where he can single-handedly carry a whole defense core. At best he would make one paring stable. Lundvist is like Bear, the only difference is Lundvist is younger. And then you create another hole by moving Miller and you are simply shifting problems around.

That’s the thing even the moves you think they should do wouldn’t move the needle but it’s attractive to you because it’s different and you haven’t seen it so therefore it has to be better right?

 

[Vector]

That’s the thing even the moves you think they should do wouldn’t move the needle but it’s attractive to you because it’s different and you haven’t seen it so therefore it has to be better right?

To be fair, this is my entire mentality now.

 

[bossram]

I don’t see how the team is that much better if you swap out Miller with Marino. Marino is not like Pronger where he can single-handedly carry a whole defense core. At best he would make one paring stable. Lundvist is like Bear, the only difference is Lundvist is younger. And then you create another hole by moving Miller and you are simply shifting problems around.

That’s the thing even the moves you think they should do wouldn’t move the needle but it’s attractive to you because it’s different and you haven’t seen it so therefore it has to be better right?

No. I think the moves are better because I think they are better.

Marino is exactly the type of defenseman the club needs. He would vastly improve their 5v5 play. Miller has been actively hurting the Canucks at 5v5 - Chytil is literally a better player at 5v5 right now. They could still do the same Lundvist to Dallas transaction, pick up a couple seconds, and then spend the 5th to get Bear. Blueline is upgraded and they add picks.

My proposed moves, IMO, leave the Canucks at worst neutral in terms of quality (if not better). But they get more cap flexibility, younger, and potentially a pick surplus. So yes, I think it's better.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

The problem is that some of you guys are thinking that this can be fixed fast, it can’t be. Some of the shit left over will take time to fix and mistakes will be made along the way. If you are expecting somebody to come in and fix this in a timely fashion with zero mistakes made, well that person does not exist.

Some of the takes here reminds me how much of a short term thinking and memory some of you all have. Remember last year when some of the folks here were shitting on Petey because of his play. Him being lazy, entitled, busting, yeah JT is this years version of that.

It’s bloody obvious that this management is not in with what is going on this year and is waiting to purge players and coaches at the end of this season. The fact you yearn for that to happen right this instance doesn’t mean it’s not coming this off-season. hell if you are for team tank you should be happy that the management group is letting this play out and go down a death spiral. Why the hell did you think they pulled out Hog, Pod, Aman and Ratbone? So they don’t need to be part of the death spiral towards the bottom of the league.

Regarding Bo, Bo’s the right one to trade because he probably has more trade value than Miller and he will not age into his contract.


He’s gonna be waived. I am not a fan of it, like I said, he is part of the cap dump and he sucks.

What part of me saying he sucks translates to I like it?

Wait, when did Petey screams at the goalie and smash his stick on the net? When did Petey turn over the puck consistently AND give no crap about backchecking? When did Petey get into yelling match on the ice with other players like Schenn? When did Petey became a 30 years old with a track record of being pouty and difficult?

Petey struggled in the first half of last season no doubt. His shot was gone, his confidence destroyed and he generally looked depressed, but he wasn't being a jackass to his teammates and mailing it in in terms of effort. JTM this season is a whole different animal.

If we decide to tank now we are going to lose Hughes EP anyways. To pretend that we can strip it all down and keep them is pure ignorance. The choice has always been, try to make it work and see if you can make it work within those two’s timeframe or lose them.

The fact that they are going towards a different direction doesn’t mean that it will not work. I have no idea if it will and even if we have the best GM in league history, it will take more than one off season to fix never mind the fact the flat cap is preventing any deals to be made anywhere. you guys are so mind f***ed by Benning that anything that goes against the idea of tanking must mean that it will fail. Snap out of the that shit, this team is no longer managed by Benning. Benning is GOAT at being terrible, there is no other Benning.

Isn't Hughes still under contract for 4 or 5 more seasons? How do we lose him, you mean he is going to force a trade? Yea EP might pull a Tkachuk, or he might not, nobody except he knows. If you think that giving JTM and Boeser expensive long term deal will convince EP to stay too, great. The team still suck almost as much as a tanking team, but at least his buddies are here, right?

Nobody knows whether building on this core will work or not, and nobody knows whether tanking will work or not. But based on the odds, if I have to put money on it, I will definitely not bet on this core. We have this group for how many years now? The best we did was the season where 24 teams made the "playoff" due to a pandemic. To bring every member of this crew back with raises, no cap space, and about to lose our captain and leading goal scorer, and expect us to be better going forward...I mean sure anything can happen, but thats a very long shot. And people complain about "tanking" because the odds of getting the 1st overall is very low, yet they don't mind the management team spending the next 2-3 years down a path that has a very low probability of working out, while adding to the long term cap commitment. I truly hope you guys are right, I really do.

 

[arttk]

No. I think the moves are better because I think they are better.

Marino is exactly the type of defenseman the club needs. He would vastly improve their 5v5 play. Miller has been actively hurting the Canucks at 5v5 - Chytil is literally a better player at 5v5 right now. They could still do the same Lundvist to Dallas transaction, pick up a couple seconds, and then spend the 5th to get Bear. Blueline is upgraded and they add picks.

My proposed moves, IMO, leave the Canucks at worst neutral in terms of quality (if not better). But they get more cap flexibility, younger, and potentially a pick surplus. So yes, I think it's better.

Nevermind the fact we don’t know if we can outbid NJ. It goes back to what makes you think we have assets to beat NJ? We don’t and ignoring the fact doesn’t change it.

 

[bossram]

Nevermind the fact we don’t know if we can outbid NJ. It goes back to what makes you think we have assets to beat NJ? We don’t and ignoring the fact doesn’t change it.

Had they traded Miller at the deadline, they almost certainly would have had better assets to offer. An extra first, could have liquidated Lundvist for two additional 2nds. A lot more draft capital there.

 

[me2]

Take out Studnicka+Stillman and keep Dickenson+cheap D and the Canucks fit under the cap even with Bear.

Jimbo 2.0 thought he had a real gud team. It is clear his judgement was not good. He signed two contracts that dwarf Dickenson's in terms of negative value.

 

[arttk]

Wait, when did Petey screams at the goalie and smash his stick on the net? When did Petey turn over the puck consistently AND give no crap about backchecking? When did Petey get into yelling match on the ice with other players like Schenn? When did Petey became a 30 years old with a track record of being pouty and difficult?

Petey struggled in the first half of last season no doubt. His shot was gone, his confidence destroyed and he generally looked depressed, but he wasn't being a jackass to his teammates and mailing it in in terms of effort. JTM this season is a whole different animal.


Isn't Hughes still under contract for 4 or 5 more seasons? How do we lose him, you mean he is going to force a trade? Yea EP might pull a Tkachuk, or he might not, nobody except he knows. If you think that giving JTM and Boeser expensive long term deal will convince EP to stay too, great. The team still suck almost as much as a tanking team, but at least his buddies are here, right?

Nobody knows whether building on this core will work or not, and nobody knows whether tanking will work or not. But based on the odds, if I have to put money on it, I will definitely not bet on this core. We have this group for how many years now? The best we did was the season where 24 teams made the "playoff" due to a pandemic. To bring every member of this crew back with raises, no cap space, and about to lose our captain and leading goal scorer, and expect us to be better going forward...I mean sure anything can happen, but thats a very long shot. And people complain about "tanking" because the odds of getting the 1st overall is very low, yet they don't mind the management team spending the next 2-3 years down a path that has a very low probability of working out, while adding to the long term cap commitment. I truly hope you guys are right, I really do.

You want to go back to the Petey thread and see how many people were bitching about Petey’s body language? He doesn’t look right, doesn’t look engaged, looks like he doesn’t care.

I am not excusing Miller of his behavior but then this is similar in the sense that this is a player struggling with something and showing it somehow. If we get a new coach and get shit sorted out, I am pretty sure we’ll see that Miller gone and hey if that doesn’t happen, then I am with you, we are f***ed with this player. But like I did with Petey, I am not going to make conclusions based on like .5 or 1 season of play.

Players can request a trade. If we are going to tank, Petey is going to pull a Tkachuk and Hughes will most likely request a trade out. You can keep him against his wishes but everyone knows that doesn’t happen because how toxic that becomes.

When you say core, I am pretty damn sure we are not even thinking about the same players. When you say this core has failed, no I disagree with that, I think Benning has failed them. They were never surrounded with good players and coaching. Hell we did the opposite, we had ass coaching and bad players who are awful fits that are overpaid and hard to move off of.
Just look at the Jets pre and post Maurice and Florida pre and post Maurice to see how much a difference ass coaching makes.

Had they traded Miller at the deadline, they almost certainly would have had better assets to offer. An extra first, could have liquidated Lundvist for two additional 2nds. A lot more draft capital there.

Draft picks and prospects is what NJ is loaded with. You think we can out bid a team that is oozing with draft and prospects? That’s the thing JR already said we were in it and Pens like NJ offer more.

That’s the beauty of your hindsight, oh if we traded Miller at the TDL we might have enough assets to get Marino if NJ who has more assets anyways decides not to go into a bidding war with us. But if they do then what?

 

[4Twenty]

Why would they acquire Stillmsn as a dump if he’s got a contract beyond this season.


Fact is Stillmsn was brought in and is used. These are facts.

Other folks assume he’s a dump because he sucks. That is not a fact. It requires assuming their thought process beyond what we can see.

Why carry him on the nhl roster and utilize him if he’s a dump? Why pay to take on a dump that requires a 2nd season?

 

[Hodgy]

Why would they acquire Stillmsn as a dump if he’s got a contract beyond this season.


Fact is Stillmsn was brought in and is used. These are facts.

Other folks assume he’s a dump because he sucks. That is not a fact. It requires assuming their thought process beyond what we can see.

Why carry him on the nhl roster and utilize him if he’s a dump? Why pay to take on a dump that requires a 2nd season?

Folks don't just assume he's a dump because he sucks, they assume he's a dump because the Canucks paid the going rate to get rid of Dickinson's salary. If Stillman was perceived to have positive value then we would expect the Canucks to have paid more than market.

Everything else is kind of a mirage and difficult to assess. Like, I don't care what Alvin or JR says. They aren't going to publicly disparage Stillman even if they think he sucks. And like basically all NHL organizations JR confirmed that Boudreau determines who plays or who doesn't so the fact that Stillman played so much after being acquired can't be used as evidence that management valued him. It just means that Boudreau thought he was better than Burroughs (but this lines up because Boudreau has publicly stated that he sees Burroughs as a 7th defensemen).

But at the end of the day its really a moot point. One can criticize management for dumping Dickinson for a 2nd and then trading for Bear (and I think this is totally valid criticism and agree) but it doesn't really matter if they valued Stillman much given the market cost of dumping Dickinson. At best you could argue that management thought Stillman had some very limited potential and took a flyer on him but given the cost of dumping Stillman I don't think you can argue they thought he had much value at all. And teams will be wrong fairly often when taking flyers on players like Stillman so it isn't much of an issue.

 

[me2]

Why would they acquire Stillmsn as a dump if he’s got a contract beyond this season.


Fact is Stillmsn was brought in and is used. These are facts.

Other folks assume he’s a dump because he sucks. That is not a fact. It requires assuming their thought process beyond what we can see.

Why carry him on the nhl roster and utilize him if he’s a dump? Why pay to take on a dump that requires a 2nd season?

I thought he was a dump at the time of the trade. That's turned out to not be the case with his usage. Management didn't trust Rathbone and brought in his replacement..

 

[4Twenty]

Paying the market cost when you have no intention to contend is dumb.

Stillman or not doesn’t matter. But it’s interesting mgmt hasn’t taken away Boudreau’s crutch (I think blaming Bruce is laughable(.


Paying assets when waivers accomplished the sand continues to look dumb. I’ll move on though.

 

[me2]

.
Draft picks and prospects is what NJ is loaded with. You think we can out bid a team that is oozing with draft and prospects? That’s the thing JR already said we were in it and Pens like NJ offer more.

"Oh no we don't have assets to beat them in a bidding war, let's give up". That is just awful logic. The team with the most picks would win every trade by just offering up a 7th rounder.

That’s the beauty of your hindsight, oh if we traded Miller at the TDL we might have enough assets to get Marino if NJ who has more assets anyways decides not to go into a bidding war with us. But if they do then what?

He didn't go for that much we couldn't have been it. Easily

 

[racerjoe]

Take out Studnicka+Stillman and keep Dickenson+cheap D and the Canucks fit under the cap even with Bear.

Jimbo 2.0 thought he had a real gud team. It is clear his judgement was not good. He signed two contracts that dwarf Dickenson's in terms of negative value.

How? there is 700K difference in salary cap between stillman and Studnicka and just Dickenson.

Is my math wrong?

 

[CpatainCanuck]

I just can't fathom the incompetence of this team. Barring an incredible turn around in the second half of the season, the Canucks are on their way to missing the playoffs for the 7th time in 8 seasons. And in that time management has never made an effort to rebuild properly. It is insanity.

 

[me2]

How? there is 700K difference in salary cap between stillman and Studnicka and just Dickenson.

Is my math wrong?

Ltir. Canucks have about $1.5m currently.

 

[arttk]

Folks don't just assume he's a dump because he sucks, they assume he's a dump because the Canucks paid the going rate to get rid of Dickinson's salary. If Stillman was perceived to have positive value then we would expect the Canucks to have paid more than market.

Everything else is kind of a mirage and difficult to assess. Like, I don't care what Alvin or JR says. They aren't going to publicly disparage Stillman even if they think he sucks. And like basically all NHL organizations JR confirmed that Boudreau determines who plays or who doesn't so the fact that Stillman played so much after being acquired can't be used as evidence that management valued him. It just means that Boudreau thought he was better than Burroughs (but this lines up because Boudreau has publicly stated that he sees Burroughs as a 7th defensemen).

But at the end of the day its really a moot point. One can criticize management for dumping Dickinson for a 2nd and then trading for Bear (and I think this is totally valid criticism and agree) but it doesn't really matter if they valued Stillman much given the market cost of dumping Dickinson. At best you could argue that management thought Stillman had some very limited potential and took a flyer on him but given the cost of dumping Stillman I don't think you can argue they thought he had much value at all. And teams will be wrong fairly often when taking flyers on players like Stillman so it isn't much of an issue.

The only reason to bring up stillman in that context is to paint this management group as horrible talent evaluators. Which is a fair take if all their other acquisitions are in similar mode.
Stillman sticks out like a sore thumb when you look at his qualities compared to all their other pro acquisitions. It’s almost like they didn’t target him.

 

[racerjoe]

Ltir. Canucks have about $1.5m currently.

How much room did the have and would they have without those moves, and it still wouldn't cover what you said. 1.5 mil would be used on the difference and the extra cheap dman you said, which then leaves no room for Bear.