The deal was objectively bad - no sugar coating it. If you wanted to take the deal for the sake of it that’s fine, but trying to put lipstick on the trade offers for JT last year is just revisionist.
Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!
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credulous
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i don't think he was good but i think it's ridiculous to move him and a 2nd for riley stillman. it would have been better to just stick him in the press box or send him to abbotsford
the canucks could have just LTIR'd dermott to start the season and been cap compliant. the only urgency they had to move his contract was self imposed
sandwichbird2023
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As opposed to the great time watching this team be mediocre year in year out?
It's fine if you are happy with this group. I remember a portion of the fan base preaching "more time" for Benning after his first season too. Whatever JR/Allvin are building, it doesn't look like it's done on solid foundation. But might as well give them 2-3 more years and piss away more of Hughes/EP prime years, maybe JTM will give a crap again in his age 32 season, and Boeser finally becomes the 30 goals sniper we are paying him to be.
This is what happens when you have a team that is poorly assembled and a management team that points out the ways to fix it, and then does the exact opposite. Fans turn on each other like rats fighting over a used band aid.
Like what are we even arguing about? Stillman? Dickenson? OEL? Shades of brown in a full diaper?
There's nothing good to look forward to because it's so obvious this team can't be anything but borderline playoff level. Nothing to look forward to. Horvat scoring goals like we haven't seen for decades and it's meaningless because he's either gone or resigning to a club that has mediocraty as a goal! Why get excited by Pettersson? He's not going to stick around when there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
Watching a grown man throw temper tantrums and pout or the other guy lumber around the ice like he's 80. Hurray! There's seemingly no structure to the play on the ice and you have your GM grousing about being forced to keep using the coach. What adults do this kind of crap? Why is it ok for players to sign huge contracts and then not even bother to try?
I'm worn out and there's nothing but more of this on the horizon. For years. Our suffering will be measured in Ron Delorme years. The Canucks have an eye for incompetence and reward it well.
These morons turned a really solid asset in Miller into an anchor. How badly can you read a room? It's unreal how perfectly awful this whole organization is.
That said, I'm certain everything will change and theses same guys will be playing solid playoff hockey next year! They just need a little more time.
Like what are we even arguing about? Stillman? Dickenson? OEL? Shades of brown in a full diaper?
There's nothing good to look forward to because it's so obvious this team can't be anything but borderline playoff level. Nothing to look forward to. Horvat scoring goals like we haven't seen for decades and it's meaningless because he's either gone or resigning to a club that has mediocraty as a goal! Why get excited by Pettersson? He's not going to stick around when there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
Watching a grown man throw temper tantrums and pout or the other guy lumber around the ice like he's 80. Hurray! There's seemingly no structure to the play on the ice and you have your GM grousing about being forced to keep using the coach. What adults do this kind of crap? Why is it ok for players to sign huge contracts and then not even bother to try?
I'm worn out and there's nothing but more of this on the horizon. For years. Our suffering will be measured in Ron Delorme years. The Canucks have an eye for incompetence and reward it well.
These morons turned a really solid asset in Miller into an anchor. How badly can you read a room? It's unreal how perfectly awful this whole organization is.
That said, I'm certain everything will change and theses same guys will be playing solid playoff hockey next year! They just need a little more time.
I don't think that is the best way of judging a GM's drafting. There being teams who were similarly bad or worse doesn't make the Canucks drafting under Gillis good. But since you listed some teams and a time frame, I figure I go over it. My apologies if I mixed up the timeframes.
Capitals drafted after the Canucks in 2009 and came away with Johansson, Orlov, and Eakin. We came away with Schroeder, Rodin, and Connauton. 2010, according to the leaked boards, we had Kuznetsov as the BPA but chose to make the Ballard trade contingent on Bennett and Tinordi being there. 2011 the Capitals drafted Boyd who is better than anyone the Canucks drafted that year despite Washington only having picks in the 4-7th rounds. 2012 isn't a fair comparison since Washington drafted Forsberg and Wilson, but the controversial Mallet pick turned out to be bad. Gillis was Pelech's uncle and didn't think he was going to be any good? Severson was also a popular pick at that spot. There's also a cluster of bottom 6 players drafted pretty much right after who would have been better picks.
Penguins. They whiffed on Pouliott but otherwise drafted quite a few players who had at least some form of NHL careers. Rust, Blueger, and (for a 2nd stint) Archibald are still on the team with others still in the NHL. Even Despres was better than Schroeder. On the bright side, the Penguins also drafted Oskar Sundqvist in the 3rd round of the 2012 draft who should be an Allvin pick.
Bruins were in a different situation from the Canucks so it's hard to compare. Obviously they drafted Seguin and Dougie Hamilton during that period of time. A fair comparison would be in 2012. Bruins drafted Subban, Grezelcyk, and Matt Benning. We drafted Gaunce, Mallet, and Hutton.
Sharks. They drafted Coyle in a year where we traded for Ballard contingent upon Bennett and Tinordi not being available. 2011 the Sharks were clearly better. They came away with 4 current NHL players that year: Nieto, Kuraly (we drafted Labate and Blomstrand in before Sharks picked in the 4th round), DeMelo (6th round), and Blackwell (7th round).
Red Wings. Their drafting sucked but was still arguably better. 2009 they drafted Tatar (a popular pick here) after Rodin and added Nick Jensen at #150 while we drafted Price (#113) and Anderson (#143). 2011 they drafted Jurco while we drafted Jensen. They did draft Mrazak and Anthanasiou during the same time frame along with Sheahan and Jarnkrok (we didn't have picks here so not a fair comparison).
Blackhawks had a ton of picks in 2009-2011 so not really a fair comparison but in 2009 they drafted Pirri after we drafted Rodin and Kruger after we drafted Rai. 2010 Chicago drafted Hayes (again we didn't make the Ballard trade contingent on Hayes being there). Otherwise the picks didn't match up and not a fair comparison. 2011 we picked Jensen over Saad (McKenzie's BPA at that spot). They also picked up Andrew Shaw #139 when we drafted Labate and Blomstrand ahead of him. Hutton is our best late round pick during that time frame nad the Blackhawks drafted Hinostroza that year after Hutton was selected.
I personally think the best way is to consider who the Canucks selected versus the players that were/should have been strongly considered at that draft slot with playing position being a secondary consideration. Of course it gets more of a crap shoot in the later rounds but in the earlier rounds it should be a tighter group that the team is realisticaly choosing from.
I don't agree with your characterization but I don't blame management for not making the deal. I say this being surprised at what Lundkvist was worth. In hindsight, I still don't think it was good value given that the Rangers' pick end up being very late, but I suppose they could have asked for the 2013 first.
For me, I think Lundkvist is potentially a good Dman in the right situation. Maybe he's a guy who plays well with OEL where Lundkvist gets to handle the puck. He's blocked on the PP with Hughes though. With that said, I did like him a lot.
I kind of saw Miller as a huge asset but I guess the deal wasn't there. Sometimes it's just the timing.
Even if there was no Stillman the transaction is dumb. You like to leave him out of the discussion but he’s on the roster eating up $1.3m on the cap for next year and this.
The difference between this and waiving Dickinson to the AHL is barely half a league minimum salary.
Everyone here knows you’re going to make excuses for these guys. You’ve admitted it.
Literally shortcutting the future for a season they didn’t care to not compete in. Dumb.
Actually according to you guys the difference is having Bear and not having Bear... so.
Even if the deal was "objectively bad" (not really but whatever), that honestly didn't matter.
What mattered was making the best decision going forward, even if the best option was "objectively bad", so long as it was better than the other options. The reasonable people here wanted Miller traded at last year's deadline for the best available package because it would've generated the best possible return and would have avoided a moronic extension.
They went with the latter option. It is much worse.
Lol. Nice batting practice fastball…..Could’ve done the same by waiving him…..so…..same shit yet keep the 2nd rounder.
It was actually according to Jim Rutherford, your hero, so there’s that too.
You guys like to act like Stillman shouldn’t be included in the evaluation but that makes no sense.
Even if he isn’t the move looks poor. But everyone who posts here knows yourself and art will excuse this regimes work.
If we decide to tank now we are going to lose Hughes EP anyways. To pretend that we can strip it all down and keep them is pure ignorance. The choice has always been, try to make it work and see if you can make it work within those two’s timeframe or lose them.
The fact that they are going towards a different direction doesn’t mean that it will not work. I have no idea if it will and even if we have the best GM in league history, it will take more than one off season to fix never mind the fact the flat cap is preventing any deals to be made anywhere. you guys are so mind f***ed by Benning that anything that goes against the idea of tanking must mean that it will fail. Snap out of the that shit, this team is no longer managed by Benning. Benning is GOAT at being terrible, there is no other Benning.
He can be waived and only 300k counts. What part of that does not compute for you?
If you waive Dickinson you have 1.7M on the books. Do you not understand 1.7M >>>>> 300k?
Its just not true... and again according to some here and I think but am not certain you that we had to make this deal to trade for Bear, as we signed stupid wingers...
Yes Jim is a true Ferris Beuller.
If you think that you haven't been paying attention. My argument is he shouldn't be looked at as a pro-scouting anything. You shouldn't say JR can't evaluate talent Stillman... He was a body and cap dump.
I haven't excused anything. You just can't comprehend nuance and opinion. I have said I think this is still a work in progress and to judge before this upcoming offseason is a mistake. I have also changed my mind on certain things. Again I never wanted to sign JT, but that doesn't mean all the arguments here about him are correct, or that we should have taken a lousy deal in trade for him (note this isn't to say we should have signed him... see the difference). I have said and would maintain the contract in a vacuum is good... but again I would not have signed him.
What is clear is you and a few posters don't like this management team... and that is fine, it doesn't mean you can make up things that are clearly wrong.
Lol he’s not waived though. He’s very much here.
The move was dumb at the time and continues to be. Not surprised you’re a fan of it.
You and Joe can continue the excuse fest.
The problem is that some of you guys are thinking that this can be fixed fast, it can’t be. Some of the shit left over will take time to fix and mistakes will be made along the way. If you are expecting somebody to come in and fix this in a timely fashion with zero mistakes made, well that person does not exist.
Some of the takes here reminds me how much of a short term thinking and memory some of you all have. Remember last year when some of the folks here were shitting on Petey because of his play. Him being lazy, entitled, busting, yeah JT is this years version of that.
It’s bloody obvious that this management is not in with what is going on this year and is waiting to purge players and coaches at the end of this season. The fact you yearn for that to happen right this instance doesn’t mean it’s not coming this off-season. hell if you are for team tank you should be happy that the management group is letting this play out and go down a death spiral. Why the hell did you think they pulled out Hog, Pod, Aman and Ratbone? So they don’t need to be part of the death spiral towards the bottom of the league.
Regarding Bo, Bo’s the right one to trade because he probably has more trade value than Miller and he will not age into his contract.
He’s gonna be waived. I am not a fan of it, like I said, he is part of the cap dump and he sucks.
What part of me saying he sucks translates to I like it?
Why continue to devils advocate for a dumb move if you don’t like it? At best it’s trolling. At worst it’s dumb.
Creating 1.3m of cap space for a non competitive season by selling a future top 2-3 round pick is dumb.
I don’t think Anyone expected things to be turned around in a hurry. That’s just a straw man.
Mgmt could be great. I judge by actions not assumptions.
Creating 1.3m of cap space for a non competitive season by selling a future top 2-3 round pick is dumb.
I don’t think Anyone expected things to be turned around in a hurry. That’s just a straw man.
Mgmt could be great. I judge by actions not assumptions.
m9
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This is the other part that makes no sense with people saying "Stillman was a cap dump". Conceivably a dump would hurt Chicago's return, so why didn't they try to waive him first? Then if he clears waivers - why is Chicago even concerned about dumping this contract? The cap isn't a concern for where they're at, they are just hoping for the best return.
Even if you ignore all that.. why wouldn't Stillman have been waived when the Canucks acquired him? So now two teams see him as a "cap dump" but neither tried to waive him to clear that contract? Makes no sense.
Exactly. Can only judge the moves they've made so far. People like @arttk making these "wait and see" excuses sound just like the BenningBros did for years. Are we just so supposed to assume JR is going to magically make some mega-good moves next offseason?
credulous
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if it can't be fixed fast what was the point of giving up a 2nd for dickinson? they should have held that pick to deal with higher priority problems
Because Dickinson has no place on this roster. It makes more sense to play Joshua on the 4th line because we should use that space to evaluate if he has a future with us. 2nd or 3rd line, we should use that spot to pump Garland so we can trade his ass. We need the space to evaluate Kuz and let Pod/Hog play.
At some point you need to get rid of the guy because he has no future with us and will eventually be waived. Either you do it now or next off-season, the end result is the same. Never mind the fact he was shitting on the team the moment he got traded.
credulous
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bingo. the canucks clearly targeted stillman. chicago had zero need to move stillman. they only include him if vancouver ask for him
so waive him? send him to abby. put him in the press box
no one here is arguing that the dickinson deal was bad because dickinson is a good player. giving up a 2nd to get rid of a minor problem like dickinson is just terrible management when there are much bigger problems that need solving
A lot of reasons to move him including they didn't want an extra contract. Its why lots of cap dump moves have some guy coming back you have never heard of.
I mean there were no good moves to hang on for the Benning regime. That was pure hope. Here at least we can see that they can convince a prize UFA that every team in the league was on to join us.
They were able to acquire 2 top6 forwards without spending any assets and having those guys fit the profile they want and you guys are like well I don’t see anything promising here.
They spent Hamonic and a 5th rounder to acquire a new defense paring that is in the mold that they said they wanted and all you guys can focus on is why is Myers and OEL still here. Like hello, have you seen their contracts and their play?
The whole Miller thing is like Petey 2.0. People see a player not playing up to their standard and assume that all hope is lost and the future is Loui Eriksson.
And no, I am not advocating that we should be always in the mind of well let’s see what happens next year every year. It actually makes e sense to say that when this is literally their first year here. It’s not even asking for patience, it’s asking for common sense.
Stillman is here the same reason why Pederson is here. Nobody is going to go say yeah obviously the Canucks targeted Pederson.
credulous
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so much reaching
the blackhawks have plenty of worthless contracts to move if needed. the canucks would have got like cameron hillis if this was the point of including a contract (never mind that they only have 45/50 contract slots used)
VanillaCoke
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None of it makes any sense its fans desperately making excuses and wearing canucks colored glasses.
Chicago added a cap dump back when they had no need, and he just happens to be a mid 20s age gap RFA, signed for multiple years...
He was clearly a piece van wanted and just like pizza sbisa eventually that info will come out and the cap dump stillman fanclub will be holding the bag again. Just like the dim jim wait and see crowd.
But hey we won the cap space cup to start the year !!
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