Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,407
24,576
See, now what you're doing is making massive assumptions. Those aren't facts either.

I have no doubt that teams do look at statistics to judge players. That's just common sense. They aren't idiots. That includes shot differential statistics, and the like. Or whatever version they have, when we're talking about teams with their own analytical department. But you seem to be assuming that their evaluation of the player ends there. It doesn't. This is also common sense.

I love how some people try to manipulate the facts, or just outright leave out important information, when they try to make generalizations.

Yes. GM's do look at statistics, but that isn't all they do. They also want players to be scouted, and observed, and analyzed in ways statistics have a difficult time measuring... which, coincidentally, is exactly what Anaheim fans have been suggesting you do for Fowler. Go figure.

Show me where I said anything else, I never stated NHL teams ONLY use stats to evaluate players. Of course they use their own non statical facts. This doesn't change many people's (not just mine) opinion Fowler is best suited as a #3 instead of being used as a top pairing guy.

Like any player it's up to individual opinion on players, but as you can clearly see a significant number of people don't see Fowler as a top pairing guy. The stats highly suggest he's not a top pairing guy, you want to claim the "non measurable" things he does makes him a top pairing guy.....but we all know the eye test is FAR from reliable and certainly is very biased at the best of times.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
Show me where I said anything else, I never stated NHL teams ONLY use stats to evaluate players. Of course they use their own non statical facts. This doesn't change many people's (not just mine) opinion Fowler is best suited as a #3 instead of being used as a top pairing guy.

Like any player it's up to individual opinion on players, but as you can clearly see a significant number of people don't see Fowler as a top pairing guy. The stats highly suggest he's not a top pairing guy, you want to claim the "non measurable" things he does makes him a top pairing guy.....but we all know the eye test is FAR from reliable and certainly is very biased at the best of times.

You didn't need to say it. By omitting the other ways GM's evaluate players, you heavily implied it. Either that, or your post was being intentionally misleading, by leaving out important information. Take your pick.

If this is your version of facts, it's less factual than you think. At best, it's a half-truth. It clearly isn't a whole truth.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2114547

And it seems a significant number of people do see him as a top pairing guy. Once again, you're forming half-truths and calling them facts.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


We all know stats are far from reliable, too.

This is probably where someone says that stats don't have bias... which is true, at least until someone with bias attempts to interpret them. That's where it all falls apart, and where the hypocrisy of it all takes root.
 

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,407
24,576
You didn't need to say it. By omitting the other ways GM's evaluate players, you heavily implied it. Either that, or your post was being intentionally misleading, by leaving out important information. Take your pick.

If this is your version of facts, it's less factual than you think. At best, it's a half-truth. It clearly isn't a whole truth.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2114547

And it seems a significant number of people do see him as a top pairing guy. Once again, you're forming half-truths and calling them facts.

Or you just made assumptions about my post that I didn't actually say. Bingo

I'm well aware of the hfb poll, 45% of people don't see him as a top pairing guy. Thus including all the ducks fans who voted, plus others believe him to be top pairing. Now reduce the ducks fans from that poll and you see a significant % of people don't see him as top pairing (even with ducks fans voting 45% of people don't see him as one). Far from a slam dunk ringing endorsement of a guy being a top pairing guy. Heck if it was clear, the voting would be massively one sided, Fowler voting has a significant split.

Cheers! :naughty:
 

ScarTroy

Registered User
Sponsor
May 24, 2012
3,292
3,102
Corona, CA
Or you just made assumptions about my post that I didn't actually say. Bingo

I'm well aware of the hfb poll, 45% of people don't see him as a top pairing guy. Thus including all the ducks fans who voted, plus others believe him to be top pairing. Now reduce the ducks fans from that poll and you see a significant % of people don't see him as top pairing (even with ducks fans voting 45% of people don't see him as one). Far from a slam dunk ringing endorsement of a guy being a top pairing guy. Heck if it was clear, the voting would be massively one sided, Fowler voting has a significant split.

Cheers! :naughty:
Ducks fans should be the votes that really matter, seeing as we watch him 82+ times per season. I bet if you took out hero chart warriors and salty Rangers fans the poll would shift more into him being top pairing.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
Or you just made assumptions about my post that I didn't actually say. Bingo

I'm well aware of the hfb poll, 45% of people don't see him as a top pairing guy. Thus including all the ducks fans who voted, plus others believe him to be top pairing. Now reduce the ducks fans from that poll and you see a significant % of people don't see him as top pairing (even with ducks fans voting 45% of people don't see him as one). Far from a slam dunk ringing endorsement of a guy being a top pairing guy. Heck if it was clear, the voting would be massively one sided, Fowler voting has a significant split.

Cheers! :naughty:

Is that how we're playing it?

Then remove New York fans, who have a clear bias against him. We could also remove fans of teams who can't regularly see him. I suspect that removes some numbers on both sides. But the point is that you're just arbitrarily removing votes from the top pairing side, and from the fans who see Fowler the most. That's... convenient.

If you aren't getting your point across clearly, or at leaving out information, it's your fault if a reader makes an assumption. You can't assume we can read your mind.
 

Hunter368

RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
Nov 8, 2011
27,407
24,576
This is probably where someone says that stats don't have bias... which is true, at least until someone with bias attempts to interpret them. That's where it all falls apart, and where the hypocrisy of it all takes root.

If we were debating one guys analysis of Fowler using just his own study I would say you might have a good argument. But when all the analytics I've seen from independent people around North America suggest the samething......are you suggesting all stats guys have a bone to pick with Fowler? ;)

Is that how we're playing it?

Then remove New York fans, who have a clear bias against him. We could also remove fans of teams who can't regularly see him. I suspect that removes some numbers on both sides. But the point is that you're just arbitrarily removing votes from the top pairing side, and from the fans who see Fowler the most. That's... convenient.

If you aren't getting your point across clearly, or at leaving out information, it's your fault if a reader makes an assumption. You can't assume we can read your mind.

Why would Rangers fans care? Of course having the players fans votes count is heavily bias on the results, that's a no brainer. If you really wanted a truthful poll have one without any ducks fans allowed.....the results would of been well over 50% believing he wasn't top pairing (based off the current poll). Like I said even with the bias of ducks fans included the votes were 46% believing he wasn't a top pairing guy.....that's a huge statement right there. Clearly no matter how you want to spin it, he's far from a clear consensus top pairing guy as per the poll. You can't debate that even if we don't agree.

Believe as you will though, I'm done trying to lead the pony to water. Have a good night.
 

Michel Beauchamp

Canadiens' fan since 1958
Mar 17, 2008
23,299
3,393
Laval, Qc
Those "stats" you like to conveniently ignore are the same stats that virtually all teams at the NHL now use to evaluate player and team results. Continue to ignore them if you like, but GM's in the NHL use them daily. (...)

:laugh:

But that new toy is really shiny...

Let's all go and admire the Emperor's new clothes.

That snake oil medicine man did a great job.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
If we were debating one guys analysis of Fowler using just his own study I would say you might have a good argument. But when all the analytics I've seen from independent people around North America suggest the samething......are you suggesting all stats guys have a bone to pick with Fowler? ;)

I think you missed a big point. The analytics don't say that. The people interpreting them do.

And to answer your question: No. They don't all have a bone to pick with Fowler. But they may absolutely be overly reliant on the statistics when it's a player they view rarely. It's not like Anaheim is an Eastern Conference team, with a large media draw. People like easy solutions to fill in the gaps when they can't watch all the players. It's a lazy approach, but a pretty common one. The evidence of that is clear when you see people try to describe Fowler. That includes the independent people who should be completely neutral. They try to put together a story based on what they know about the player(whether it's up to date or not - such as when someone describes Fowler as a PP QB), and then use the statistics to fill in any holes.

Part of that is ego. God forbid someone say "I haven't seen enough about this player to form an educated opinion." Even though it's completely unrealistic for individuals to be informed on every player in the NHL, people still like to pretend that isn't the case.

Why would Rangers fans care? Of course having the players fans votes count is heavily bias on the results, that's a no brainer. If you really wanted a truthful poll have one without any ducks fans allowed.....the results would of been well over 50% believing he wasn't top pairing (based off the current poll). Like I said even with the bias of ducks fans included the votes were 46% believing he wasn't a top pairing guy.....that's a huge statement right there. Clearly no matter how you want to spin it, he's far from a clear consensus top pairing guy as per the poll. You can't debate that even if we don't agree.

Believe as you will though, I'm done trying to lead the pony to water. Have a good night.

I'm not going to get into it regarding some Ranger fans caring, but they do.

As for a truthful poll... it's a strange truth that excludes the fans who see him the most. I'd almost say that isn't truth at all. Anyone can vote in a poll, whether their opinion is informed or not. You're suggesting that's more truthful? That someone who sees Fowler maybe once or twice a year's vote is worth the same as someone who sees them 82 times a year? Oh, no, you're actually going a step beyond that. You're saying that the person who sees Fowler 82 times a year shouldn't be voting at all. The most informed voter, and you've decided they shouldn't get a say?

This pony doesn't think that's water you're trying to lead him to. It looks more like ******** to me.
 
Last edited:
Oct 18, 2011
44,279
10,201
wow how did the ducks have the best defensive team in the league with cam fowler as it's first or second best defenseman, how have they had any success with him at all in such a large role, based on hf mentality such a mediocre player should sink the team
 

Halla

Registered User
Jan 28, 2016
14,727
3,779
wow how did the ducks have the best defensive team in the league with cam fowler as it's first or second best defenseman, how have they had any success with him at all in such a large role, based on hf mentality such a mediocre player should sink the team

Lindholm. check out his advanced stats. elite.
 

Mr Hockey*

Guest
Lindholm. check out his advanced stats. elite.

Lindholm maybe in the top 3 d'men in the NHL when it comes to advanced stats lol. Ice time seems pretty balanced on the ducks blue line too?
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

Registered User
Jun 17, 2010
47,535
16,116
Lindholm maybe in the top 3 d'men in the NHL when it comes to advanced stats lol. Ice time seems pretty balanced on the ducks blue line too?

And that's why I don't like advanced stats because he is NOT top 3 in NHL he's just not
 

mytduxfan*

Guest
Lindholm. check out his advanced stats. elite.

Tell me about it. So happy we got Lindholm over Rielly. Lindholm is an elite top pairing D-man right now, whilst Rielly is only a top 4. Actually, if we're going on the only stat that matters, shot suppression, Rielly is barely a top 6 D-man defensively. Still, despite not being Lindholm, at least Rielly isn't Fowler, am I right? :laugh::laugh::laugh: You guys dodged a bullet on him. Terrible D-man. Barely an NHL player according to the numbers. Hard to believe, but the numbers don't lie.
 

PuqTalk

I love Cogliano
Jun 24, 2012
1,866
0
Texas
My favorite part about people using HERO charts to discredit Fowler is probably that half of these people probably used to view them as ******** too.
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
I wonder if things change a little if the Leafs sign Vesey....that's another top 6 LW. Not that i'm saying it would make JVR expendable, but it would soften the blow a little...
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,671
16,883
The Naki
I wonder if things change a little if the Leafs sign Vesey....that's another top 6 LW. Not that i'm saying it would make JVR expendable, but it would soften the blow a little...

I'm on board doing this deal right now even without another top six winger ready to take JVRs spot but if Vesey is good enough to cover for the loss of JVR I'd be very surprised
He's a 3rd line maybe second line guy right now at best and I'm not sure he's even that until he starts playing and we see what he can do
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
I'm on board doing this deal right now even without another top six winger ready to take JVRs spot but if Vesey is good enough to cover for the loss of JVR I'd be very surprised
He's a 3rd line maybe second line guy right now at best and I'm not sure he's even that until he starts playing and we see what he can do

I'm leary...fill 1 hole by creating a bigger one.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,671
16,883
The Naki
I'm leary...fill 1 hole by creating a bigger one.

Our prospect pool can fill the JVR position eventually one way or another but there is jack **** in the pool as far as top pair D goes
I like Dermott but if he becomes a second pair guy I'd be more than happy and the rest are huge question marks
The benefits of this deal are
If we have one of these two players when there current deals run out I'd much rather give a long term extension to Fowler than JVR
Our young guys play in front of a good goalie and strong D core so great for there long term development
In next years draft we are not having to reach for a Dman in desperation we can take a winger center or goalie if they are BPA if our D is a tyre fire that seriously ties our hands in what we have to prioritize
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
Our prospect pool can fill the JVR position eventually one way or another but there is jack **** in the pool as far as top pair D goes
I like Dermott but if he becomes a second pair guy I'd be more than happy and the rest are huge question marks
The benefits of this deal are
If we have one of these two players when there current deals run out I'd much rather give a long term extension to Fowler than JVR
Our young guys play in front of a good goalie and strong D core so great for there long term development
In next years draft we are not having to reach for a Dman in desperation we can take a winger center or goalie if they are BPA if our D is a tyre fire that seriously ties our hands in what we have to prioritize

I almost agree, as i am a huge proponent of "build from the net out". I just don't see any of our LW prospects at a JVR ceiling. If Fowler were RHD...it would be a little easier to swallow....but if push came to shove, i'd probably pull the trigger.
 

Redline

Registered User
Feb 26, 2003
2,148
2
boardroom
Visit site
I think you missed a big point. The analytics don't say that. The people interpreting them do.

And to answer your question: No. They don't all have a bone to pick with Fowler. But they may absolutely be overly reliant on the statistics when it's a player they view rarely. It's not like Anaheim is an Eastern Conference team, with a large media draw. People like easy solutions to fill in the gaps when they can't watch all the players. It's a lazy approach, but a pretty common one. The evidence of that is clear when you see people try to describe Fowler. That includes the independent people who should be completely neutral. They try to put together a story based on what they know about the player(whether it's up to date or not - such as when someone describes Fowler as a PP QB), and then use the statistics to fill in any holes.

Part of that is ego. God forbid someone say "I haven't seen enough about this player to form an educated opinion." Even though it's completely unrealistic for individuals to be informed on every player in the NHL, people still like to pretend that isn't the case.
That shouldn't even need to be said but its a good reminder regardless.

Another valid point however is that some posters do follow a number of teams closely enough that despite them not being a fan they can still have educated opinions based on more than just stats.
It's the ones that have a strong opinion about nearly every player you have to watch out for.

BTW, it's even worse with many self proclaimed prospect experts. :nod:
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,671
16,883
The Naki
I almost agree, as i am a huge proponent of "build from the net out". I just don't see any of our LW prospects at a JVR ceiling. If Fowler were RHD...it would be a little easier to swallow....but if push came to shove, i'd probably pull the trigger.

Yeah not ideal by any stretch but worth it
There's a pile of high end wingers in next years draft so I'd be looking for JVRs eventual replacement there
There's only two RD going to go high at the moment so much easier getting a winger I'd imagine
Nylader could be the replacement if he struggles a bit at center (not predicting that though)
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

Registered User
Jun 17, 2010
47,535
16,116
I wonder if things change a little if the Leafs sign Vesey....that's another top 6 LW. Not that i'm saying it would make JVR expendable, but it would soften the blow a little...

Doubt it very much. Look JV might be good but let's be honest he hasn't proven Jack **** yet you don't trade JVR just because Jimmy Vesey signs

Ideally you build depth

Ideally in the future the lines would look something like this

JVR Mathews Marner

Vesey Nylander ?

that's the ideal situation bur that's not a sure thing.

You don't trade JVR before you know whst you have in Vesey.

Besides and I said this before I believe we can build a deal for Fowler, assuming he is actually on the block without moving JVR
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad