Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[mytduxfan*]

Find me one advanced stats writer who thinks Fowler is a good player.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

"Cam Fowler is a very interesting case, as he is very high event, very efficient exiting the zone both with and without control, and has one of the lowest defensive turnover rates in the NHL, but he is far below team average in shot suppression on the Ducks. Of the top 20 players in this style of breakdown, Fowler does spend the most amount of his effort in the defensive zone, with 65 per cent of his events happening there, but I wonder if he’s more in a bad situation than just poor defensively."

Pretty much exactly what we've all been saying. Fowler is a #2, being forced to do the job of a #1, all whilst playing alongside a #5-6 guy i.e. the definition of a "bad situation".

Care to show how these stats were collected/what the sample size is?

Oh that's right, you can't, because that is an absolutely garbage article

Jetshomer: "Fowler's possession stats are terrible"

Ducks fans: "Yeah, but those numbers don't tell the whole story"

Jetshomer: "Yeah they do"

Ducks fans: "No they don't. Look at Fowler's zone exits, his zone starts, his QoT and his QoC"

Jetshomer: "Those are garbage stats!"

Ducks fans: "Fine. Trouba sucks because he has terrible possession stats".

Jetshomer: "B... b... b... but Trouba was facing top competition and his partners were terrible."

Duck fans: "Aren't those garabage stats? The numbers don't lie, remember?"

Jetshomer: "But the numbers aren't the truth?" <------- HE ACTUALLY SAID THIS AFTER USING THOSE EXACT SAME NUMBERS TO SLATE FOWLER. "They're only garabage when they criticise my players, but they're totally legit when I use them to slate your guy".

This is my favourite pro-Fowler argument.

'The Ducks were good and therefore Fowler must be good' only good players can play on good teams, no exceptions

It's still a better argument then "despite the Ducks defying the possession stats and seeing success for 3 seasons whilst being in the bottom half of the league in terms of possession, Fowler should have been different to all the players around him".

Lol...2 pages about arguing advanced stats....i get I'm old, but i miss the days when we would watch hockey games to see how good a player was...now we just look at spread sheets.

Preaching to the choir.

I think Sojourn put it best when he said something along the lines of:

"advanced stats allow one to pretend they know everything about every player in the league. It's something that is basically impossible. Hence, the reliance on advanced stats. Ultimately, it comes down to people on here having too much ego and being totally unwilling to admit "I don't know enough about said player to comment"."

 

[Exit Dose]

How did this rumor of all things hit 40 pages?

 

[Hunter368]

How did this rumor of all things hit 40 pages?

Leafs......involved. Massive click value.

Ducks fans who hate the suggestion that Fowler is a #3 instead of a #2.

Many fans love giving Ducks fans a hard time, just for the fun of it.

Come on, it's funny to read no matter what your true view is.

 

[dracom]

Leafs......involved. Massive click value.

Ducks fans who hate the suggestion that Fowler is a #3 instead of a #2.

Many fans love giving Ducks fans a hard time, just for the fun of it.

Come on, it's funny to read no matter what your true view is.

If that was actually the conversation that was being had, that'd be fine. But it's not, instead the conversation always becomes about how terrible of a hockey player Fowler is.

 

[Hunter368]

If that was actually the conversation that was being had, that'd be fine. But it's not, instead the conversation always becomes about how terrible of a hockey player Fowler is.

Maybe its up to individual POV, I don't see people saying Fowler is terrible ever. Only thing I see is people debating is he a 2 or a 3 guy.

 

[4thline]

Maybe its up to individual POV, I don't see people saying Fowler is terrible ever. Only thing I see is people debating is he a 2 or a 3 guy.

Which I think is same thing haha

 

[dracom]

Maybe its up to individual POV, I don't see people saying Fowler is terrible ever. Only thing I see is people debating is he a 2 or a 3 guy.

Even if this is all true (its not) both Gardiner and Trouba are much better Cam Fowler (who actually does suck)

There's one example from a Jets fan saying Fowler sucks. Would look for more in this thread, but I'm not that interested. Also don't forget all the posts from Machinehead and aufheben who love to come into Fowler threads just to remind us Ducks fans that Fowler sucks because fancy stats says so.

 

[Hunter368]

There's one example from a Jets fan saying Fowler sucks. Would look for more in this thread, but I'm not that interested. Also don't forget all the posts from Machinehead and aufheben who love to come into Fowler threads just to remind us Ducks fans that Fowler sucks because fancy stats says so.

No matter player is discussed ever on HFB you will have some who have an opinion that is more radical then the average. Normal

Stats debate is a fair one. Trouba is in same boat, paired with a non NHL partner who hurts his numbers. Jets fans hear the same thing.

Imo Fowler isn't as good as Ducks fans believe and he's not as bad as others believe.

I see the stats, I see analysis done on him, I've watched him play a lot. IMO he's a #3, ducks fans will disagree and call him a #2. It's all good.

 

[dracom]

No matter player is discussed ever on HFB you will have some who have an opinion that is more radical then the average. Normal

Stats debate is a fair one. Trouba is in same boat, paired with a non NHL partner who hurts his numbers. Jets fans hear the same thing.

Imo Fowler isn't as good as Ducks fans believe and he's not as bad as others believe.

I see the stats, I see analysis done on him, I've watched him play a lot. IMO he's a #3, ducks fans will disagree and call him a #2. It's all good.

Which is totally fine! I would disagree of course, but it's all good. I only get annoyed with those who come into Fowler threads just to crap on him by only using advanced stats and just come to the conclusion that Fowler sucks.

 

[Hunter368]

Which is totally fine! I would disagree of course, but it's all good. I only get annoyed with those who come into Fowler threads just to crap on him by only using advanced stats and just come to the conclusion that Fowler sucks.

Fair comment

 

[4thline]

I really think that your agreement is even closer than you think, and the difference between a "2" and a "3" is non existent. A good "3" can be counted on to be the guy on your second pairing, and could hold the fort on the top pairing playing second fiddle to a number 1, or with another equal guy to share the load.

A good "2" can be counted on to play second fiddle on the top pairing, or make do with another equal partner to share the load. If he's pushed down due to depth he can carry the second pairing.

It's the same calibre of d-man, just in a different role. Of course there's a range of talent filling that spread, but all comparable. After the first 15 or so "true number 1's: down to the guys that are thought of as great second pairing guys there's not much separation.


And for all this Jets/ Ducks *****ing its hilarious. They're both 2/3's that would make a great top pair imo despite neither being a 1

 

[JetsHomer]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

"Cam Fowler is a very interesting case, as he is very high event, very efficient exiting the zone both with and without control, and has one of the lowest defensive turnover rates in the NHL, but he is far below team average in shot suppression on the Ducks. Of the top 20 players in this style of breakdown, Fowler does spend the most amount of his effort in the defensive zone, with 65 per cent of his events happening there, but I wonder if he’s more in a bad situation than just poor defensively."

Pretty much exactly what we've all been saying. Fowler is a #2, being forced to do the job of a #1, all whilst playing alongside a #5-6 guy i.e. the definition of a "bad situation".



Jetshomer: "Fowler's possession stats are terrible"

Ducks fans: "Yeah, but those numbers don't tell the whole story"

Jetshomer: "Yeah they do"

Ducks fans: "No they don't. Look at Fowler's zone exits, his zone starts, his QoT and his QoC"

Jetshomer: "Those are garbage stats!"

Ducks fans: "Fine. Trouba sucks because he has terrible possession stats".

Jetshomer: "B... b... b... but Trouba was facing top competition and his partners were terrible."

Duck fans: "Aren't those garabage stats? The numbers don't lie, remember?"

Jetshomer: "But the numbers aren't the truth?" <------- HE ACTUALLY SAID THIS AFTER USING THOSE EXACT SAME NUMBERS TO SLATE FOWLER. "They're only garabage when they criticise my players, but they're totally legit when I use them to slate your guy".





It's still a better argument then "despite the Ducks defying the possession stats and seeing success for 3 seasons whilst being in the bottom half of the league in terms of possession, Fowler should have been different to all the players around him".



Preaching to the choir.

I think Sojourn put it best when he said something along the lines of:

"advanced stats allow one to pretend they know everything about every player in the league. It's something that is basically impossible. Hence, the reliance on advanced stats. Ultimately, it comes down to people on here having too much ego and being totally unwilling to admit "I don't know enough about said player to comment"."

You're still on this 'Trouba's possession stats are terrible' tirade despite being proven time and time again that Trouba's shot metrics are those of a top pairing defenseman?

I do find it interesting that a young guy can be played in a number 2 role with a non-NHL quality partner and still have great shot differentials (like Trouba has) but for some reason when Fowler has terrible numbers playing the same situation he's 'actually good, just in a bad situation'

Weird how actually good players when put in the exact same situation actually get good results...how's that for context?

The only time I said 'the numbers aren't the truth' was when you tried to claim Trouba had bad shot differentials, which is just plain ignorant and wrong. Are you still trying to harp that falsehood? Hahahah

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

How did this rumor of all things hit 40 pages?

Yeah this must be a record for Eklund, Getting 1,000 post. But then again the Leafs are involved here.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

(Hockey analytics to me are more meant to give insight to teams on how to use players (QoT, Zone Starts, QoC) and play their system (Possession vs Rush vs etc), than place #'s on players.

This threads gone out of control with both sides being ignorant IMO.
Numbering the players aside (doesn't really matter what the eye test or advanced stats say whether he's a #2/#3/#4), Fowler's usage (QoT, Zone starts, QoC) needs to be changed. It's clear that many think he's a great player and by changing his usage to be easier, he'll produce the results a team wants. Same thing with Morgan Rielly on our team (There's an arguement on whether he's a #2/3/4).

There's absolutely no reason for a team with Lindholm/Manson/Vatanen/Despres/Stoner to be killing Fowler with difficult usage. If anything I place more blame on the hockey minds of Anaheim that gave him difficult usage. The economic theory of diminishing marginal returns is perfect in this case (Yes, he's great but if you keep pushing that usage up and up there comes a point where you're just hurting him and the team).

So for this thread I guess, I don't want Fowler because:
1) He's a LHD and we need RHD.
2) We have Rielly and Gardiner who are BOTH supposedly elite in the league at controlled exits and Gardiner who's also elite in other areas.
3) Would be nicer to use assets on a shutdown RHD (I.e Someone who can handle the usage Fowler/Rielly got last year effectively).
4) Would be nicer to use assets on a bigger body RHD for our top-4.

 

[mytduxfan*]

You're still on this 'Trouba's possession stats are terrible' tirade despite being proven time and time again that Trouba's shot metrics are those of a top pairing defenseman?

... still denying that Trouba's shot suppression stats are terrible. He's awful defensively. Definitely not a top pairing D-man. Being good in one area doesn't = good overall.

I do find it interesting that a young guy can be played in a number 2 role with a non-NHL quality partner and still have great shot differentials (like Trouba has) but for some reason when Fowler has terrible numbers playing the same situation he's 'actually good, just in a bad situation'

Weird how actually good players when put in the exact same situation actually get good results...how's that for context?

Trouba? In a #2 role? Now you don't watch ANA or your own team. Trouba has never been used in a #2 role. Try watching your own team before you start criticising others.

The only time I said 'the numbers aren't the truth' was when you tried to claim Trouba had bad shot differentials, which is just plain ignorant and wrong. Are you still trying to harp that falsehood? Hahahah

So Trouba's terrible shot suppression stats "aren't the truth"?

I don't think I've once said "shot differentials". Regardless, Trouba's shot differentials are that impressive given his low QoC. Faced sheltered minutes compared to Buff, Enstrom and Myers. Kids a bust being carried by superior players.

 

[mytduxfan*]

(Hockey analytics to me are more meant to give insight to teams on how to use players (QoT, Zone Starts, QoC) and play their system (Possession vs Rush vs etc), than place #'s on players.

This threads gone out of control with both sides being ignorant IMO.
Numbering the players aside (doesn't really matter what the eye test or advanced stats say whether he's a #2/#3/#4), Fowler's usage (QoT, Zone starts, QoC) needs to be changed. It's clear that many think he's a great player and by changing his usage to be easier, he'll produce the results a team wants. Same thing with Morgan Rielly on our team (There's an arguement on whether he's a #2/3/4).

There's absolutely no reason for a team with Lindholm/Manson/Vatanen/Despres/Stoner to be killing Fowler with difficult usage. If anything I place more blame on the hockey minds of Anaheim that gave him difficult usage. The economic theory of diminishing marginal returns is perfect in this case (Yes, he's great but if you keep pushing that usage up and up there comes a point where you're just hurting him and the team).

So for this thread I guess, I don't want Fowler because:
1) He's a LHD and we need RHD.
2) We have Rielly and Gardiner who are BOTH supposedly elite in the league at controlled exits and Gardiner who's also elite in other areas.
3) Would be nicer to use assets on a shutdown RHD (I.e Someone who can handle the usage Fowler/Rielly got last year effectively).
4) Would be nicer to use assets on a bigger body RHD for our top-4.

Agreed, but we've had no one else for years. Personally, I've been very pleased with Fowler, particularly last year (looked like a #1 at times). He's a solid #2 being asked to do too much. Stick him on a line with a true #1 and he'll look fantastic.

 

[JetsHomer]

... still denying that Trouba's shot suppression stats are terrible. He's awful defensively. Definitely not a top pairing D-man. Being good in one area doesn't = good overall.



Trouba? In a #2 role? Now you don't watch ANA or your own team. Trouba has never been used in a #2 role. Try watching your own team before you start criticising others.



So Trouba's terrible shot suppression stats "aren't the truth"?

I don't think I've once said "shot differentials". Regardless, Trouba's shot differentials are that impressive given his low QoC. Faced sheltered minutes compared to Buff, Enstrom and Myers. Kids a bust being carried by superior players.

Point 1. Trouba's shot suppression stats aren't 'horrible' they are roughly at the level of a 4 or 5 Dman. Coupled with his elite shot generation gives him top pairing level shot differentials. Mytduxfan wrong again.

Point 2. Who was the Jets number two Dman then? Myers who only played 27 seconds more a game than Trouba? The Jets rolled Buff as the number one, then split Myers and Trouba's time pretty equally (Trouba with more PK and EV time, Myers more PP) Enstrom played as the number 4. So look at that mytduxfan wrong again

Point 3. QoC has been conclusively proven to have little to no effect on Dmen that play similar minutes, and this has been well established for years. A minuscule difference in QoC (.4) implies that all the Jets top 4 played very equally difficult minutes and none were sheltered. How can you even shelter someone when they are playing 20+ minutes a night and you only have last change half the year? Mytduxfan thinking QoC means anything even if the numbers were largely different (as opposed to minuscule, as they are in reality) just means that, surprise suprise, mytduxfan is wrong again! Please do some research in the future, it will help to keep you from looking foolishly ignorant

 

[Liferleafer]

When did this thread become about Trouba? Isn't it time everybody gets back to bashing Gardiner/other Leafs?

 

[WhatWhat]

Leafs......involved. Massive click value.

Ducks fans who hate the suggestion that Fowler is a #3 instead of a #2.

Many fans love giving Ducks fans a hard time, just for the fun of it.

Come on, it's funny to read no matter what your true view is.

This isn't what people even bring up. The name Fowler come up and half the people throw up a HERO chart and claim he is an over paid 3rd paring D. Soo many people here who just look at the charts while never watching a player actually play and make claims as to them being good or bad

 

[caley]

When a thread hits 1000 posts, we're supposed to close it and open a second one. After scanning this thread, I see no reasonable reason why it got this big, much less deserves a second thread.

CLOSED