Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[Kiwi]

Doubt it very much. Look JV might be good but let's be honest he hasn't proven Jack **** yet you don't trade JVR just because Jimmy Vesey signs

Ideally you build depth

Ideally in the future the lines would look something like this

JVR Mathews Marner

Vesey Nylander ?

that's the ideal situation bur that's not a sure thing.

You don't trade JVR before you know whst you have in Vesey.

Besides and I said this before I believe we can build a deal for Fowler, assuming he is actually on the block without moving JVR

Don't see how you can without one of the big 3 in the deal and if they did that I'd fly from New Zealand and riot in down town Toronto
Just deal JVR for Fowler and pick another high end winger in next years draft
We will be picking plenty high enough to get a good one

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Don't see how you can without one of the big 3 in the deal and if they did that I'd fly from New Zealand and riot in down town Toronto
Just deal JVR for Fowler and pick another high end winger in next years draft
We will be picking plenty high enough to get a good one

I personally think if we put a guy like Kapenan on the table that is something that can be built around.

I also think Kadri is something that can be built around I know Kadri just signed a deal but ask Carter, Richards and Kessel what long term deals mean, none of them lasted long.

There are other options

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I personally think if we put a guy like Kapenan on the table that is something that can be built around.

I also think Kadri is something that can be built around I know Kadri just signed a deal but ask Carter, Richards and Kessel what long term deals mean, none of them lasted long.

There are other options

Kapanen would have to be a secondary piece, if he's the best asset you're willing to table for Fowler that's a quick way to end the conversation. Not that he's a bad prospect or anything, but he isn't nearly a strong enough starting point for that type of deal.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Kapanen would have to be a secondary piece, if he's the best asset you're willing to table for Fowler that's a quick way to end the conversation. Not that he's a bad prospect or anything, but he isn't nearly a strong enough starting point for that type of deal.

He would be a secondary piece just saying we have other assets than the big 3

 

[Sojourn]

I personally think if we put a guy like Kapenan on the table that is something that can be built around.

I also think Kadri is something that can be built around I know Kadri just signed a deal but ask Carter, Richards and Kessel what long term deals mean, none of them lasted long.

There are other options

If Kapanen is who you're trying to build a proposal around, the discussion will end quickly. He sweetens the pot, but he isn't a piece with the kind of value to build a deal around.

 

[Ciao]

Our prospect pool can fill the JVR position eventually one way or another but there is jack **** in the pool as far as top pair D goes
I like Dermott but if he becomes a second pair guy I'd be more than happy and the rest are huge question marks
The benefits of this deal are
If we have one of these two players when there current deals run out I'd much rather give a long term extension to Fowler than JVR
Our young guys play in front of a good goalie and strong D core so great for there long term development
In next years draft we are not having to reach for a Dman in desperation we can take a winger center or goalie if they are BPA if our D is a tyre fire that seriously ties our hands in what we have to prioritize

Who would you have in mind "to fill the JVR position?"

I'm thinking of that critical power-forward with the size and skill to fight to the front of the net and get a goal or assist on the power-play or when the game is close and a goal is needed.

None of the current vets have the right combination of size and skill to do that job, and they never will.

Leivo, Lindberg and Rychel would be the most likely prospects to fill that role in future, but none of them are ready now and it's a very long stretch to think any one of them would ever fill the JVR power-forward role.

I don't know who else you would have in mind. 5'11" 174-lb William Nylander is a highly skilled player, but to think he's the guy you want fighting two defenceman and a goaltender at the front of the net while someone else feeds him the puck would be a sad joke. 5'11" 160-lb Mitch Marner? 6'0" 178-lb Kasperi Kapanen? 5'10" 176-lb Andreas Johnson? 5'11" 183-lb Nikita Soshnikov? 5'9" 192-lb Dmytro Timashov? 5'10" 176-lb Brendan Leipsic? 6'1" 194-lb Zach Hyman? 5'10" 174-lb Trevor Moore?

Who am I missing?

The problem with building a hockey team is it's not like a video game where you collect enough Pokemen and you win. The team needs to fill different roles on the ice all at once.

Contrary to what one other poster says, it's not all about who has the most highly talented defencemen. All the positions do make a difference.

JVR was a second-overall pick who is now in his prime and is a key part of the Leafs, for whom there is no immediate replacement and no likely replacement presently within the system.

The notion that it would be easy to fill his spot from within is, in my view, just plain dumb.

He is most certainly tradable, but the return would have to be pretty darn high. Picking up a third highly offensively skilled left-handed defenceman to go along with the two the Leafs already have to fill two top-four LHD spots just doesn't do it.

A true #1 LHD where that need certainly exists? Okay. The shiny new toy that's being waggled in front of your playpen is neither a #1 nor an LHD.

It just doesn't fit the Leafs' needs.

 

[Ciao]

If Kapanen is who you're trying to build a proposal around, the discussion will end quickly. He sweetens the pot, but he isn't a piece with the kind of value to build a deal around.

I agree.

Fowler is a valuable piece and is not comparable to Kapanen in value.

The problem is the Leafs don't have any openings at Fowler's position. The best they could do is to move him or another player out of position, and if that's the case they are better off to keep looking for the players they really need.

The Leafs do need JVR - their only true #1 power-forward.

They don't need Fowler - yet another true top-four LHD.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Tell me about it. So happy we got Lindholm over Rielly. Lindholm is an elite top pairing D-man right now, whilst Rielly is only a top 4. Actually, if we're going on the only stat that matters, shot suppression, Rielly is barely a top 6 D-man defensively. Still, despite not being Lindholm, at least Rielly isn't Fowler, am I right? You guys dodged a bullet on him. Terrible D-man. Barely an NHL player according to the numbers. Hard to believe, but the numbers don't lie.

I know you're being sarcastic, but advanced stats tell you about how they handle their usage (not if someone is a 1st pairing, 2nd pairing, 3rd pairing, etc)

Both Rielly and Fowler haven't done well in their usage and need to get easier usage to get a positive impact on the team. Lindohlm has done well in his usage and can get harder usage in the future. Etc. As someplayers grow (aka elite players), their ability to handle usage grows too. That's what the hope with Rielly is, that he can grow to handle it. But as of now, bpth Fowler and Rielly aren't meant to be used the way they are now.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

I agree.

Fowler is a valuable piece and is not comparable to Kapanen in value.

The problem is the Leafs don't have any openings at Fowler's position. The best they could do is to move him or another player out of position, and if that's the case they are better off to keep looking for the players they really need.

The Leafs do need JVR - their only true #1 power-forward.

They don't need Fowler - yet another true top-four LHD.

If the Leafs trade for Fowler, Gardiner is up for trade the next day.

 

[PuqTalk]

I know you're being sarcastic, but advanced stats tell you about how they handle their usage (not if someone is a 1st pairing, 2nd pairing, 3rd pairing, etc)

Both Rielly and Fowler haven't done well in their usage and need to get easier usage to get a positive impact on the team. Lindohlm has done well in his usage and can get harder usage in the future. Etc. As someplayers grow (aka elite players), their ability to handle usage grows too. That's what the hope with Rielly is, that he can grow to handle it. But as of now, bpth Fowler and Rielly aren't meant to be used the way they are now.

This is way too easy of a summation of a more complex problem at hand. If Fowler wasn't strapped down with guys like Mara, Lilja, Sutton, Brookbank, Bieksa, and Allen throughout his career the numbers would be singing a vastly different tune. The offensive explosiveness we saw early on probably won't show up again, he was forced to turn into a different styled player as a result of his partners and the usage he was given.

Despite playing with "shutdown" defenseman, he's always been the one doing 90% of the defending through the neutral zone and his own. He's done amazing considering he took the weakest part of the game upon entering the NHL and improving upon it enough to handle top competition for most of his career thus far, and do it successfully.

If you gave Fowler the same exact usage but Lindholm or Vatanen as a partner, his corsi would sky rocket and his point totals would as well. That doesn't mean he can't be a guy to carry a pairing, he's been doing it his whole career. What it means is he needs another defenseman that's as talented as he is to handle the minutes successfully and allow him to make more of an impact on the offensive side of the game by not being deathly afraid to take chances.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

This is way too easy of a summation of a more complex problem at hand. If Fowler wasn't strapped down with guys like Mara, Lilja, Sutton, Brookbank, Bieksa, and Allen throughout his career the numbers would be singing a vastly different tune. The offensive explosiveness we saw early on probably won't show up again, he was forced to turn into a different styled player as a result of his partners and the usage he was given.

Despite playing with "shutdown" defenseman, he's always been the one doing 90% of the defending through the neutral zone and his own. He's done amazing considering he took the weakest part of the game upon entering the NHL and improving upon it enough to handle top competition for most of his career thus far, and do it successfully.

If you gave Fowler the same exact usage but Lindholm or Vatanen as a partner, his corsi would sky rocket and his point totals would as well. That doesn't mean he can't be a guy to carry a pairing, he's been doing it his whole career. What it means is he needs another defenseman that's as talented as he is to handle the minutes successfully and allow him to make more of an impact on the offensive side of the game by not being deathly afraid to take chances.

It's not necessarily as complicated as everyone thinks when the problems looked at. While Fowler has been strapped down by weak partners for a large part of his career, that's part of the term I use 'usage' (I have a broader definition of it I guess. Usage to me involves: QoT, QoC, Zone starts). There are players out there that can handle that sort of usage (I.e get top defensive usage against high QoC with low QoT and still have a positive impact on the team versus when they're not on. Fowler's not one of them. Rielly's not one of them.

And thus, that's why advanced stats should be used by teams much, much more (like some of the teams have already). If we KNOW Fowler is getting dragged down by a certain player all his career then as the coach, change his usage (His QoT, QoC, zone starts). If a coach has no other option, then the GM should change that. There are many, many 'passenger' D-men out there that go underrated all the time. Just like Billy Beane said in baseball, you don't have to go grab a big name to make a big impact. You can go grab someone that allows for Fowler to play his game, without being an anchor. The Gardiners, Stralmans, Ekholms, Petrys, etc. They can carry their own pairing, and also are/can be strong passengers in difficult situations.

This is more general on the whole topic of analytics in hockey, but this shows that analytics hasn't taken steps in many organizations. If everyone knows a player is being dragged down, then it's on the GM/management for not actively going out and finding a solution for it (Via analytics or regular route).

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

If the Leafs trade for Fowler, Gardiner is up for trade the next day.

JVR for the Vatanen makes more sense, plus he is signed for four years.

 

[Ciao]

If the Leafs trade for Fowler, Gardiner is up for trade the next day.

What's the best power-forward that the Leafs would get for Gardiner?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If the Leafs trade for Fowler, Gardiner is up for trade the next day.

Wrong we need to add a quality D you don't add Fower snd trade Gradiner because then you end up in the same situation you are now with 2 top 4 d men.

 

[Kiwi]

Who would you have in mind "to fill the JVR position?"

I'm thinking of that critical power-forward with the size and skill to fight to the front of the net and get a goal or assist on the power-play or when the game is close and a goal is needed.

None of the current vets have the right combination of size and skill to do that job, and they never will.

Leivo, Lindberg and Rychel would be the most likely prospects to fill that role in future, but none of them are ready now and it's a very long stretch to think any one of them would ever fill the JVR power-forward role.

I don't know who else you would have in mind. 5'11" 174-lb William Nylander is a highly skilled player, but to think he's the guy you want fighting two defenceman and a goaltender at the front of the net while someone else feeds him the puck would be a sad joke. 5'11" 160-lb Mitch Marner? 6'0" 178-lb Kasperi Kapanen? 5'10" 176-lb Andreas Johnson? 5'11" 183-lb Nikita Soshnikov? 5'9" 192-lb Dmytro Timashov? 5'10" 176-lb Brendan Leipsic? 6'1" 194-lb Zach Hyman? 5'10" 174-lb Trevor Moore?

Who am I missing?

The problem with building a hockey team is it's not like a video game where you collect enough Pokemen and you win. The team needs to fill different roles on the ice all at once.

Contrary to what one other poster says, it's not all about who has the most highly talented defencemen. All the positions do make a difference.

JVR was a second-overall pick who is now in his prime and is a key part of the Leafs, for whom there is no immediate replacement and no likely replacement presently within the system.

The notion that it would be easy to fill his spot from within is, in my view, just plain dumb.

He is most certainly tradable, but the return would have to be pretty darn high. Picking up a third highly offensively skilled left-handed defenceman to go along with the two the Leafs already have to fill two top-four LHD spots just doesn't do it.

A true #1 LHD where that need certainly exists? Okay. The shiny new toy that's being waggled in front of your playpen is neither a #1 nor an LHD.

It just doesn't fit the Leafs' needs.

We have a ton of young forwards on the way up and will pick high up in the draft next year in all probability
There is no one in our prospect pool that's going to be a top pair D in our prospect pool anytime soon if ever I like Dermott but if he ends up on the second pair he's done everything I'd want from him
Rielly played RD last year and did a good job its not ideal but unless you want to ship out one of the big three we are not getting one of those anytime soon
We will pick high next year in the draft and we have to take a Dman as it stands right now we have zero other options if we want a competitive team anytime soon
We can score by committee if needs be we don't have to have a power forward and if our D is solid we won't need to score as much to win games anyway

A 60 point winger is great but give me decent goaltending and a solid D core any day of the week

 

[Mr Hockey*]

Wrong we need to add a quality D you don't add Fower snd trade Gradiner because then you end up in the same situation you are now with 2 top 4 d men.

Sorry man but Fowler is a level above Gardiner.

 

[DavidBL]

Sorry man but Fowler is a level above Gardiner.

I don't think that was his point. Not to put words in his mouth but I think he is referring to the idea of "If you need to add a top 4 D you don't trade one of the 2 you already have just because you found one." The idea being they want 3 not just the 2. Even if the 2 new ones are better overall than the 2 you started with.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Sorry man but Fowler is a level above Gardiner.

Thats fine but you still keep them both because you need 4 top 4 d men that's why it's called a top 4.

The Leafs aren't deep enough even with Fowler to trade away a top 4 D man If they do that they aren't filling a hole they are just replacing one guy with another.

Now if you keep them both then it looks something like this

Reilly Fowler

Gradiner Zaitsev

Marincin Polak

is that perfect? FAR FAR from it but you do have a D that is starting to come together it's got some holes but you know your top 3 of Reilly Fowler Gradiner are all solid they can all play 20+ minutes every night.

Now you can focus on the bottom 3 and that's easier to fill

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

i don't think that was his point. Not to put words in his mouth but i think he is referring to the idea of "if you need to add a top 4 d you don't trade one of the 2 you already have just because you found one." the idea being they want 3 not just the 2. Even if the 2 new ones are better overall than the 2 you started with.

bingo you win

 

[sxvnert]

Leafs need to determine what they have in Zaitsev and Carrick before considering this move.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Leafs need to determine what they have in Zaitsev and Carrick before considering this move.

To be honest I expect nothing out of Zaitsev I figure there is a reason he wasn't signed until he was 24.

On the other hand he is 24 so his learning curve could be a short one

I personally expect more out of Vesey who I also expect nothing out of but at least saw him as worth drafting

 

[Stand Witness]

To be honest I expect nothing out of Zaitsev I figure there is a reason he wasn't signed until he was 24.

On the other hand he is 24 so his learning curve could be a short one

I personally expect more out of Vesey who I also expect nothing out of but at least saw him as worth drafting

The main reason Zaitsev did not come over to the NHL earlier is he wanted to honour his KHL contract. He had been in touch with the Leafs for about 2 seasons now and the Flyers before that.

 

[Macallan18]

Sorry man but Fowler is a level above Gardiner.

no. Wouldn't trade Jake for Fowler straight up. Jake is elite.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

no. Wouldn't trade Jake for Fowler straight up. Jake is elite.

The guy that does not kill penalties, etc and plays 2nd unit PP is elite?

 

[JetsHomer]

The guy that does not kill penalties, etc and plays 2nd unit PP is elite?

He's not elite but he is certainly better than Fowler