Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[aufheben]

Nope, Fowler sucks. He's a #4 at best. In fact, based on the stats, and by stats I mean just shot suppression stats (I don't want anything to with that zone exits nonsense), he's probably just a #5. However, to prove that I have watched him, I'll say he has good skating, even though literally everyone has known that's his best asset ever since he was drafted.

Yep, no point in taking a player that is being carried by Kevin Bieksa.

This is beyond grasping at straws.

 

[mytduxfan*]

This is beyond grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at anything. You've come into every forum discussing Fowler, even those NOT involving your NYRs, to tell us Duck fans how terrible Fowler is. I agree with you now. Fowler sucks.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Of course Babs would be a fan...any coach would. But it's at what cost. I would love to add Fowler to our D, He and Rielly could man the top pair, but any trade needs to work for both teams...and we don't have an excess of what the Ducks need.

Absolutely. I agree.

Great summary, though I think it undersells Fowler a bit. In the system I evaluate d-men I'd slot him as a 2-3. Can be part of an effective top pair with someone as good or better but shouldn't be counted on to carry it, or can carry a second pair. IMO Rielly and Gardiner both fit in their as well.

That's how I think about it too. Sometimes these definitions complicate evaluations, as players have a tendency to fall between the gaps. Explanations like the one you gave is more effective.

 

[Liferleafer]

I'm not grasping at anything. You've come into every forum discussing Fowler, even those NOT involving your NYRs, to tell us Duck fans how terrible Fowler is. I agree with you now. Fowler sucks.

Now that Fowler sucks...can we have him cheap?? Lol

 

[Mr Hockey*]

He probably just noticed that mike character saying it, and didn't verify whether it's true. If Gardiner is sheltered, so is half the league.

Wouldn't go so far as promise what Babcock would think though. I think he'd be a fan of Fowler.

I would say its possible half the league or close to it plays sheltered minutes ... common sense know?

 

[aufheben]

I'm not grasping at anything. You've come into every forum discussing Fowler, even those NOT involving your NYRs, to tell us Duck fans how terrible Fowler is. I agree with you now. Fowler sucks.

There's a big difference between "sucking" and being better suited as a #3 defenseman.

 

[JetsHomer]

I'm not grasping at anything. You've come into every forum discussing Fowler, even those NOT involving your NYRs, to tell us Duck fans how terrible Fowler is. I agree with you now. Fowler sucks.

Glad we are on the same page

 

[mytduxfan*]

Now that Fowler sucks...can we have him cheap?? Lol

Well he's certainly not worth a top 10 pick after what happened at the draft, am I right?

Tbh, I'd be happy if we got like a mid-ranged pick for him. Fowler is basically a cap dump at this point. However, our moron staff seem to think he's good for some dumb reason. I have no idea why. Anyone who knows what they're talking about can see that the numbers clearly tell the whole story. It's obvious now that ANA are straight up ignoring the analytics that are taking over the game. I don't know how they expect to win when they don't invest in specialised analytics departments like good teams should. I mean, maybe if they sat up and followed the possession stats for a change we'd have seen the same success that TOR and EDM have had for the passed few season, two teams with excellent analytics departments.

There's a big difference between "sucking" and being better suited as a #3 defenseman.

Meh, #3 to you, #5 to others. It really depends how you read the only stat that matters, shot suppression. If you read the numbers literally, Fowler is terrible. I don't know if you know this, but there are these things called Warrior charts that explain everything about how good defensively a player is. Check the link:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/63HWQ4Z3Q?:display_count=yes

Fowler is literally in Dan Girardi territory in terms of shot suppression. That chart says he's a bottom 6 player, so he's a bottom 6er. No reason to disagree with the numbers staring you in the face.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I watch Fowler a lot and he has great skating. However, Fowler literally makes all his teammates worse, especially Bieksa who has clearly struggled alongside such a bad player. Seriously, I really hope Randy sees sense and puts Bieksa with someone better. What would have been really great is if we could have somehow signed Justin Schultz. Now that guy is quality top 4 D-man.

Seriously, Fowler has been a dud for years. If he was good, he'd have a positive Corsi score. Even in those years the whole team was defying the possession stats, Fowler should have been different. Such a shame our GM and coach is yet to see how bad Fowler is. We could have a cup right now if only BM had passed on Fowler for someone much better like a Pysyk or even moved up to grab McIlrath or Gudbranson, three players who are clearly better then Fowler will ever be.

Glad we are on the same page

Yeah, it took me a while, but I'm finally getting it now. Fowler sucks. You're so lucky to have Trouba. I mean, even though his shot suppression stats are also bottom 6er level, at least he generates offence. We only got 28pts and 5 goals out of Fowler. That's nothing compared to the 21pts and 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!! goals you got of Trouba this passed season. That guy is such a beast. I really have no idea why your club isn't just giving him exactly what he wants. Anything is better then the 4M we're paying Fowler right now. Such a joke of a contract.

 

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

Well he's certainly not worth a top 10 pick after what happened at the draft, am I right?

Tbh, I'd be happy if we got like a mid-ranged pick for him. Fowler is basically a cap dump at this point. However, our moron staff seem to think he's good for some dumb reason. I have no idea why. Anyone who knows what they're talking about can see that the numbers clearly tell the whole story. It's obvious now that ANA are straight up ignoring the analytics that are taking over the game. I don't know how they expect to win when they don't invest in specialised analytics departments like good teams should. I mean, maybe if they sat up and followed the possession stats for a change we'd have seen the same success that TOR and EDM have had for the passed few season, two teams with excellent analytics departments.



Meh, #3 to you, #5 to others. It really depends how you read the only stat that matters, shot suppression. If you read the numbers literally, Fowler is terrible. I don't know if you know this, but there are these things called Warrior charts that explain everything about how good defensively a player is. Check the link:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/63HWQ4Z3Q?:display_count=yes

Fowler is literally in Dan Girardi territory in terms of shot suppression. That chart says he's a bottom 6 player, so he's a bottom 6er. No reason to disagree with the numbers staring you in the face.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I watch Fowler a lot and he has great skating. However, Fowler literally makes all his teammates worse, especially Bieksa who has clearly struggled alongside such a bad player. Seriously, I really hope Randy sees sense and puts Bieksa with someone better. What would have been really great is if we could have somehow signed Justin Schultz. Now that guy is quality top 4 D-man.

Seriously, Fowler has been a dud for years. If he was good, he'd have a positive Corsi score. Even in those years the whole team was defying the possession stats, Fowler should have been different. Such a shame our GM and coach is yet to see how bad Fowler is. We could have a cup right now if only BM had passed on Fowler for someone much better like a Pysyk or even moved up to grab McIlrath or Gudbranson, three players who are clearly better then Fowler will ever be.



Yeah, it took me a while, but I'm finally getting it now. Fowler sucks. You're so lucky to have Trouba. I mean, even though his shot suppression stats are also bottom 6er level, at least he generates offence. We only got 28pts and 5 goals out of Fowler. That's nothing compared to the 21pts and 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!! goals you got of Trouba this passed season. That guy is such a beast. I really have no idea why your club isn't just giving him exactly what he wants. Anything is better then the 4M we're paying Fowler right now. Such a joke of a contract.

Love this LOL

 

[jacks*]

Doesn't Anaheim need a LW?

Fowler for JVR?

This is about as fair as a deal that i have read on this board.

 

[Hunter368]

There's a big difference between "sucking" and being better suited as a #3 defenseman.

Agreed. Fowler is a good #3 dman. If you need a #3 guy he's a good choice.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Well he's certainly not worth a top 10 pick after what happened at the draft, am I right?

Tbh, I'd be happy if we got like a mid-ranged pick for him. Fowler is basically a cap dump at this point. However, our moron staff seem to think he's good for some dumb reason. I have no idea why. Anyone who knows what they're talking about can see that the numbers clearly tell the whole story. It's obvious now that ANA are straight up ignoring the analytics that are taking over the game. I don't know how they expect to win when they don't invest in specialised analytics departments like good teams should. I mean, maybe if they sat up and followed the possession stats for a change we'd have seen the same success that TOR and EDM have had for the passed few season, two teams with excellent analytics departments.



Meh, #3 to you, #5 to others. It really depends how you read the only stat that matters, shot suppression. If you read the numbers literally, Fowler is terrible. I don't know if you know this, but there are these things called Warrior charts that explain everything about how good defensively a player is. Check the link:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/63HWQ4Z3Q?:display_count=yes

Fowler is literally in Dan Girardi territory in terms of shot suppression. That chart says he's a bottom 6 player, so he's a bottom 6er. No reason to disagree with the numbers staring you in the face.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I watch Fowler a lot and he has great skating. However, Fowler literally makes all his teammates worse, especially Bieksa who has clearly struggled alongside such a bad player. Seriously, I really hope Randy sees sense and puts Bieksa with someone better. What would have been really great is if we could have somehow signed Justin Schultz. Now that guy is quality top 4 D-man.

Seriously, Fowler has been a dud for years. If he was good, he'd have a positive Corsi score. Even in those years the whole team was defying the possession stats, Fowler should have been different. Such a shame our GM and coach is yet to see how bad Fowler is. We could have a cup right now if only BM had passed on Fowler for someone much better like a Pysyk or even moved up to grab McIlrath or Gudbranson, three players who are clearly better then Fowler will ever be.



Yeah, it took me a while, but I'm finally getting it now. Fowler sucks. You're so lucky to have Trouba. I mean, even though his shot suppression stats are also bottom 6er level, at least he generates offence. We only got 28pts and 5 goals out of Fowler. That's nothing compared to the 21pts and 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!! goals you got of Trouba this passed season. That guy is such a beast. I really have no idea why your club isn't just giving him exactly what he wants. Anything is better then the 4M we're paying Fowler right now. Such a joke of a contract.

SMH. Why would we keep Fowler if we've got that great #2 in Josh Manson to play along our top-10 defender in Lindholm? Cam Fowler is nothing but a power play quarterback who can't even play offense.


We really need some better defensive depth or the scrub starting goaltender we have will have a really hard time.

 

[Sojourn]

There's a big difference between "sucking" and being better suited as a #3 defenseman.

How would you know that he's better suited as that?

You've never seen him in a #2 role. You've only ever seen him in a #1 role, and despite his statistics, his team was successful with him in that role. Are we going to continue ignoring that this, apparent, #3 spent almost the entire season with Kevin Bieksa in a key role, and yet the team was successful? Or is this where Girardi is brought up again, and we conveniently overlook the fact he plays most of his time with McDonagh.

And, not to suggest a lack of bias, but it seems pretty telling that the two most out-spoken of the anti-Fowler folks are New York Ranger fans, who don't get the opportunity to see Fowler much anyway. Or, for that matter, have any reason at all to see the good in his play. Believe it or not, Anaheim fans have far more reason to be anti-Fowler than you do, if, as you say, he's so poor in his role. The Ducks are the team we cheer for, after all. But instead, we continue to get your anti-Fowler agenda shoved down our throats, even in threads that don't involve New York. Anaheim fans have a reason to see the good, and the bad in Fowler. You don't. And it seems pretty clear you're allowing all of this to cloud your opinion of him. I guess I am suggesting a lack of bias, because I doubt you would be so determined to attack him as a player if New York hadn't been so eager to throw away a 1st round pick on McIlrath.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

fowler is better than mcdonagh tho

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Agreed. Fowler is a good #3 dman. If you need a #3 guy he's a good choice.

no.3 when he's been a top pair dman for a very successful team for almost 3 years.

 

[Hunter368]

no.3 when he's been a top pair dman for a very successful team for almost 3 years.

The fact he was played on the top pairing means absolutely nothing, just means Ducks had nothing better to play there. He's much better suited in a lesser role (ie #3), as his stats prove he's not best suited on a top pairing. Facts...

 

[Ducks DVM]

How would you know that he's better suited as that?

You've never seen him in a #2 role. You've only ever seen him in a #1 role, and despite his statistics, his team was successful with him in that role. Are we going to continue ignoring that this, apparent, #3 spent almost the entire season with Kevin Bieksa in a key role, and yet the team was successful? Or is this where Girardi is brought up again, and we conveniently overlook the fact he plays most of his time with McDonagh.

You've never seen him with a partner playing at an appropriate responsibility for their skill level period, but, numbers and stuff.

 

[Sojourn]

The fact he was played on the top pairing means absolutely nothing, just means Ducks had nothing better to play there. He's much better suited in a lesser role (ie #3), as his stats prove he's not best suited on a top pairing. Facts...

Those aren't facts. That's your interpretation of them.

You're also ignoring the fact(this one actually is a fact), that Anaheim, the team that had nothing better to play there, let in the fewest amount of goals in the NHL.

 

[eternalbedhead]

The fact he was played on the top pairing means absolutely nothing, just means Ducks had nothing better to play there. He's much better suited in a lesser role (ie #3), as his stats prove he's not best suited on a top pairing. Facts...

I thought Lindholm was an analytics darling? According to HERO charts, a pairing of Lindholm-Manson would be more than respectable as a 1st line.


Stats have never been reliable to solely base an evalution of a player off of, from these HERO charts to simple goals and assists. Stats do lie, and lie quite often when you're not actually watching the player. Like I can't go to Jonathan Cheechoo and say "Wow, look at the offensive seasons he had point-wise, he must have been that generation's Ovechkin!", I can't go to Cam Fowler and say "Wow, his shot suppression sucks. He must be the Justin Schultz that Anaheim actually signed."

 

[Hunter368]

Those aren't facts. That's your interpretation of them.

You're also ignoring the fact(this one actually is a fact), that Anaheim, the team that had nothing better to play there, let in the fewest amount of goals in the NHL.

Those "stats" you like to conveniently ignore are the same stats that virtually all teams at the NHL now use to evaluate player and team results. Continue to ignore them if you like, but GM's in the NHL use them daily.

I love how some people like to use stats to prove their players are good except when the stats don't show what they want and then the stats suck and are useless.

Leafs won't pay top pairing price for Fowler when he produces more like a #3 guy. Funny how you get bent out of shape when people say Fowler is a #3 instead of a #2 guy.

 

[Theridion]

The sky is red.

I can prove I've seen cam Fowler play and he is a good skater.

Maybe you think you have proven you watched cam fowler, but how are you going to prove ownership of even an average IQ?

This thread is troll.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Those "stats" you like to conveniently ignore are the same stats that virtually all teams at the NHL now use to evaluate player and team results. Continue to ignore them if you like, but GM's in the NHL use them daily.

Would you like to prove this assertion that all NHL teams put all their stock in Corsi or are you going to continue blurting out things that aren't backed up by facts?

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Well he's certainly not worth a top 10 pick after what happened at the draft, am I right?

Tbh, I'd be happy if we got like a mid-ranged pick for him. Fowler is basically a cap dump at this point. However, our moron staff seem to think he's good for some dumb reason. I have no idea why. Anyone who knows what they're talking about can see that the numbers clearly tell the whole story. It's obvious now that ANA are straight up ignoring the analytics that are taking over the game. I don't know how they expect to win when they don't invest in specialised analytics departments like good teams should. I mean, maybe if they sat up and followed the possession stats for a change we'd have seen the same success that TOR and EDM have had for the passed few season, two teams with excellent analytics departments.



Meh, #3 to you, #5 to others. It really depends how you read the only stat that matters, shot suppression. If you read the numbers literally, Fowler is terrible. I don't know if you know this, but there are these things called Warrior charts that explain everything about how good defensively a player is. Check the link:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/63HWQ4Z3Q?:display_count=yes

Fowler is literally in Dan Girardi territory in terms of shot suppression. That chart says he's a bottom 6 player, so he's a bottom 6er. No reason to disagree with the numbers staring you in the face.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I watch Fowler a lot and he has great skating. However, Fowler literally makes all his teammates worse, especially Bieksa who has clearly struggled alongside such a bad player. Seriously, I really hope Randy sees sense and puts Bieksa with someone better. What would have been really great is if we could have somehow signed Justin Schultz. Now that guy is quality top 4 D-man.

Seriously, Fowler has been a dud for years. If he was good, he'd have a positive Corsi score. Even in those years the whole team was defying the possession stats, Fowler should have been different. Such a shame our GM and coach is yet to see how bad Fowler is. We could have a cup right now if only BM had passed on Fowler for someone much better like a Pysyk or even moved up to grab McIlrath or Gudbranson, three players who are clearly better then Fowler will ever be.



Yeah, it took me a while, but I'm finally getting it now. Fowler sucks. You're so lucky to have Trouba. I mean, even though his shot suppression stats are also bottom 6er level, at least he generates offence. We only got 28pts and 5 goals out of Fowler. That's nothing compared to the 21pts and 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!! goals you got of Trouba this passed season. That guy is such a beast. I really have no idea why your club isn't just giving him exactly what he wants. Anything is better then the 4M we're paying Fowler right now. Such a joke of a contract.

You spent way too much time on this post. But it was a good read so good on you.

 

[Sojourn]

Those "stats" you like to conveniently ignore are the same stats that virtually all teams at the NHL now use to evaluate player and team results. Continue to ignore them if you like, but GM's in the NHL use them daily.

I love how some people like to use stats to prove their players are good except when the stats don't show what they want and then the stats suck and are useless.

See, now what you're doing is making massive assumptions. Those aren't facts either.

I have no doubt that teams do look at statistics to judge players. That's just common sense. They aren't idiots. That includes shot differential statistics, and the like. Or whatever version they have, when we're talking about teams with their own analytical department. But you seem to be assuming that their evaluation of the player ends there. It doesn't. This is also common sense.

I love how some people try to manipulate the facts, or just outright leave out important information, when they try to make generalizations.

Yes. GM's do look at statistics, but that isn't all they do. They also want players to be scouted, and observed, and analyzed in ways statistics have a difficult time measuring... which, coincidentally, is exactly what Anaheim fans have been suggesting you do for Fowler. Go figure.

 

[Kiwi]

Those aren't facts. That's your interpretation of them.

You're also ignoring the fact(this one actually is a fact), that Anaheim, the team that had nothing better to play there, let in the fewest amount of goals in the NHL.

Stats are just one tool not the be all and end all as far as I'm concerned
I would do the Fowler for JVR trade all day long and who cares if people argue Fowler is a #2/#3 he would be playing on our top pair getting some tough minutes and doing them well no matter what the stat watchers say
If we are going to resign one of those two players in the future I'd much prefer it to be Fowler he's going to age better IMO
Having solid goaltending and a strong D core are better for our young guys long term than having 2 decent Dmen and a bunch of questionmarks with an experienced point scoring winger IMO

This deal won't happen but I think it should for our own and the Ducks now and in the future