Proposal: Leafs - Flames

[TOGuy14]

I love how every leafs player is gold but the guy who was 6th in scoring in the league as a 22 year old is a "small winger", yah no bias at all in this post.....

I remember when we gave up a couple of unknown prospects and picks for a bonfide 30-40 goal scoring winger and how it made us an elite team all of a sudden. Oh wait ...

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I remember when we gave up a couple of unknown prospects and picks for a bonfide 30-40 goal scoring winger and how it made us an elite team all of a sudden. Oh wait ...

Yah because Kessel and Gudreau are the sammmeee player right? Oh wait...

 

[Kelly]

Yah because Kessel and Gudreau are the sammmeee player right? Oh wait...

Not similar player, but at the time, definitively similar value of player.

Lets not forget, Phil was coming off a 36 goal season and was 22 years old..

Guarantee these ppl telling us we should trade for Gaudreau were the same ppl laughing at us for trading Seguin/Hamilton for Kessel. You can never win.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Yah because Kessel and Gudreau are the sammmeee player right? Oh wait...

Not similar player, but at the time, definitively similar value of player.

Lets not forget, Phil was coming off a 36 goal season and was 22 years old..

Guarantee these same turds telling us we should trade for Gaudreau are the same turds laughing at us for trading Seguin/Hamilton for Kessel. You can never win.

Second that, Kessel when the leafs acquired him is about the best comparable you're going to find in the last decade. Same age, same position (wingers), very similar production (Kessel had less points, more goals). If he's not, please let us know who's a better comparable as a guy who got traded around the same age

And the only reason the Kessel trade happens is Boston's cap situation, otherwise these kinds of trades don't get made for guys who are budding stars in their early 20's

The leafs have been burned in this same situation and should stay the course in the rebuild. Our management has shown no signs of mortgaging the future to make moves now, so I don't see it unless it was a deal you couldn't say no to

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Second that, Kessel when the leafs acquired him is about the best comparable you're going to find in the last decade. Same age, same position (wingers), very similar production (Kessel had less points, more goals). If he's not, please let us know who's a better comparable as a guy who got traded around the same age

And the only reason the Kessel trade happens is Boston's cap situation, otherwise these kinds of trades don't get made for guys who are budding stars in their early 20's

The leafs have been burned in this same situation and should stay the course in the rebuild. Our management has shown no signs of mortgaging the future to make moves now, so I don't see it unless it was a deal you couldn't say no to

How is picking up a 23 year old PPG winger "mortgaging the future"?

 

[Randy Randerson]

How is picking up a 23 year old PPG winger "mortgaging the future"?

well I assume that the flames wouldn't just hand him over....unless you think they might?

for a guy who just preached "not fighting stupidity with stupidity", this is certainly pouring gas on the fire

 

[Kelly]

How is picking up a 23 year old PPG winger "mortgaging the future"?

Because we're going to have to overpay with our young assets and draft picks.

I don't understand how people don't understand this. Unless Flames are willing to give him to us, overpaying with unknown future assets for proven players is not the trade Toronto should be looking at making.

Christ, we're in our second year of the rebuild, finished 30th place, why are we overpaying for a scoring winger?

 

[TOGuy14]

How is picking up a 23 year old PPG winger "mortgaging the future"?

Considering the consensus ask has been Matthews+ or Nylander + Marner + or some other insane variant, I would say that is mortgaging our future.

As I have already said, we once traded a lot of "futures" for a young star winger and that only set us back. Toronto is far better off holding onto our prospects unless Calgary feels like trading us Johnny G on the cheap.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

Marner + 2017 1st + 2nd > JohnnyG is fair, I think?

 

[TOGuy14]

Marner + 2017 1st + 2nd > JohnnyG is fair, I think?

I don't see a team that just finished dead last trading an unprotected 1st.

Especially with that having burned them badly very recently.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

I don't see a team that just finished dead last trading an unprotected 1st.

Especially with that having burned them badly very recently.

We can protect it

Marner + 2017 1st (lottery protected) + 2nd > JohnnyG is fair, I think?

 

[Randy Randerson]

I don't see a team that just finished dead last trading an unprotected 1st.

Especially with that having burned them badly very recently.

Ya there's no chance we do that again, especially with a management group that is preaching patience at every opportunity.

If next year's 1st rounder is a top 10 pick and we can use it on either Callan Foote or *fingers crossed* Timothy Liljegren, we have a complete set of prospects that match all the positions we need to fill. If we're lucky enough that the top 4-5 of them pan out, we'll be a home grown contender in a few to five years


Gaudreau is great, but no sense in repeating that mistake after we literally just washed our hands of it 6 months ago

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

well I assume that the flames wouldn't just hand him over....unless you think they might?

for a guy who just preached "not fighting stupidity with stupidity", this is certainly pouring gas on the fire

Marner + 1st or JVR is hardly mortgaging the future when you are getting a superstar who just turned 23 this week. Now if you were trading for Zach Parise or Corey Perry, then yea, that's mortgaging your future. But if you think the Leafs rebuild could be 3-5 years from completing, that puts Gaudreau in his absolute prime. Adding a prime superstar winger for a prospect and a draft pick would be a no brainer for Lou.

And with the additions of Matthews, Nylander, Gaudreau, and Andersen to that young roster, I'd bet on the Leafs being much closer to finishing in a playoff spot than being a lottery team. Matthews and Gaudreau would probably add 70 goals just right there.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

Marner + 1st or JVR is hardly mortgaging the future when you are getting a superstar who just turned 23 this week. Now if you were trading for Zach Parise or Corey Perry, then yea, that's mortgaging your future. But if you think the Leafs rebuild could be 3-5 years from completing, that puts Gaudreau in his absolute prime. Adding a prime superstar winger for a prospect and a draft pick would be a no brainer for Lou.

And with the additions of Matthews, Nylander, Gaudreau, and Andersen to that young roster, I'd bet on the Leafs being much closer to finishing in a playoff spot than being a lottery team. Matthews and Gaudreau would probably add 70 goals just right there.

Marner << He is considered equal if not better than Johnny Hockey by some

 

[Randy Randerson]

Marner + 1st or JVR is hardly mortgaging the future when you are getting a superstar who just turned 23 this week. Now if you were trading for Zach Parise or Corey Perry, then yea, that's mortgaging your future. But if you think the Leafs rebuild could be 3-5 years from completing, that puts Gaudreau in his absolute prime. Adding a prime superstar winger for a prospect and a draft pick would be a no brainer for Lou.

And with the additions of Matthews, Nylander, Gaudreau, and Andersen to that young roster, I'd bet on the Leafs being much closer to finishing in a playoff spot than being a lottery team. Matthews and Gaudreau would probably add 70 goals just right there.

Yes, it absolutely is mortgaging the future.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that Gaudreau bounces between being a 65 and low 80's point player for his career as he has been so far. He could be better, or he could regress

Marner's upside is absolutely in that realm, if you doubt that you're in an extreme minority where the majority includes the publishers of these lists:
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2652458-ranking-the-top-50-nhl-prospects


So, for argument's sake lets say that Marner turns out and is more or less the equivalent of Gaudreau.

Let's also say that the leafs are bad next year again, and that throw in 1st round pick is Liljegren...and for fun, lets say he turns out as well....the most frequent comparable I've seen is Drew Doughty.

So, in this not-so-far-fetched scenario, we've traded:

Marner, who is as good as Gaudreau in this little exercise
The Swedish Drew Doughty
and just for fun, throw in a functional 1st line winger

looks like good asset management to me.

Here's an honest question: do you think the leafs did well in the Kessel acquisition trade?

 

[Kelly]

Leafs are drafting and developing their own talent, last time we tried the fast track we made a trade that set us back 5 years. It isn't worth the risk.

 

[Halla]

leafs would need to add, but they wouldnt.
neither team considers this deal. leafs are long past the days of trading top prospects. the focus is now on developing our own. Matthews, Marner,Nylander and Rielly are the core pieces going forward

 

[Haatley]

Considering the consensus ask has been Matthews+ or Nylander + Marner + or some other insane variant, I would say that is mortgaging our future.

As I have already said, we once traded a lot of "futures" for a young star winger and that only set us back. Toronto is far better off holding onto our prospects unless Calgary feels like trading us Johnny G on the cheap.

But I thought all your prospects were future top 6 players?

 

[Halla]

Marner + 1st or JVR is hardly mortgaging the future when you are getting a superstar who just turned 23 this week. Now if you were trading for Zach Parise or Corey Perry, then yea, that's mortgaging your future. But if you think the Leafs rebuild could be 3-5 years from completing, that puts Gaudreau in his absolute prime. Adding a prime superstar winger for a prospect and a draft pick would be a no brainer for Lou.

And with the additions of Matthews, Nylander, Gaudreau, and Andersen to that young roster, I'd bet on the Leafs being much closer to finishing in a playoff spot than being a lottery team. Matthews and Gaudreau would probably add 70 goals just right there.

moving a 19 year old who just won every award possible and a likely top 10 pick which could land us a top pairing d-prospect ISNT mortgaging the future?

no mention of us adding at least 6.3 million in salary. that isnt morgating the future either I guess.

leafs are pretty happy with marner. they are willing to gamble on his upside, which is huge

 

[Randy Randerson]

But I thought all your prospects were future top 6 players?

Don't understand this reply...he didn't say anything about the value the leafs prospects in that post that would indicate he thinks otherwise.

Seems like a shameless mud sling at the Leafs farm, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you think that Matthews, Marner and Nylander don't look like future top 6 players, then please let us know who does in your opinion.

 

[Halla]

But I thought all your prospects were future top 6 players?

you realize there is a difference between top 6 and top line right?
top 6 players dont win championships, guys like Toews,Kane,Crosby,Malkin,Doughty and Kopitar do.

we have 3 potential top line forward prospects and most of the other guys have a shot at the 2nd or 3rd line. this thread is silly. leafs are content. flames should just give gaudreau what he wants

 

[Halla]

Don't understand this reply...he didn't say anything about the value the leafs prospects in that post that would indicate he thinks otherwise.

Seems like a shameless mud sling at the Leafs farm, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you think that Matthews, Marner and Nylander don't look like future top 6 players, then please let us know who does in your opinion.

he does nothing but put down the leafs. check his posting history. this is a dream thread for a troll like that. lol at his location too

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yes, it absolutely is mortgaging the future.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that Gaudreau bounces between being a 65 and low 80's point player for his career as he has been so far. He could be better, or he could regress

Marner's upside is absolutely in that realm, if you doubt that you're in an extreme minority where the majority includes the publishers of these lists:
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2652458-ranking-the-top-50-nhl-prospects


So, for argument's sake lets say that Marner turns out and is more or less the equivalent of Gaudreau.

Let's also say that the leafs are bad next year again, and that throw in 1st round pick is Liljegren...and for fun, lets say he turns out as well....the most frequent comparable I've seen is Drew Doughty.

So, in this not-so-far-fetched scenario, we've traded:

Marner, who is as good as Gaudreau in this little exercise
The Swedish Drew Doughty
and just for fun, throw in a functional 1st line winger

looks like good asset management to me.

Here's an honest question: do you think the leafs did well in the Kessel acquisition trade?

You can't just say "for argument's sake" and then make an illogical statement like that.

How about this. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Gaudreau turns into a perennial 100 point player and wins several scoring titles, and helping the Leafs to a playoff spot next year. And then, for argument's sake, Marner ends up a 45-50 point winger.

In that not so far fetched scenario, you've traded a mid first pick and an average top 6 winger for a superstar MVP type player.

Marner has 75 point potential. He also has the potential to bust, potential which is far more likely than Gaudreau regressing to a 65 point player.

Like I said, if Lou was ever offered Gaudreau for Marner and a 1st, he'd probably collapse from excitement.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

moving a 19 year old who just won every award possible and a likely top 10 pick which could land us a top pairing d-prospect ISNT mortgaging the future?

That's a ridiculous comment. What if you were trading that package for McDavid? Still mortgaging your future?

It's not mortgaging your future if you're improving your future. Not sure what is complicated about that.

"A boat's a boat, but a mystery box could be anything. . . It could even be a boat!"

[Yt]yZpIog7e-R4[/MEDIA]

 

[Randy Randerson]

You can't just say "for argument's sake" and then make an illogical statement like that.

How about this. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Gaudreau turns into a perennial 100 point player and wins several scoring titles, and helping the Leafs to a playoff spot next year. And then, for argument's sake, Marner ends up a 45-50 point winger.

In that not so far fetched scenario, you've traded a mid first pick and an average top 6 winger for a superstar MVP type player.

Marner has 75 point potential. He also has the potential to bust, potential which is far more likely than Gaudreau regressing to a 65 point player.

Like I said, if Lou was ever offered Gaudreau for Marner and a 1st, he'd probably collapse from excitement.

My statements were not illogical, I took the non-extreme route and said that Gaudreau would continue to be what he is. You decided he was going to be a perennial Hart trophy winner by increasing his production by almost 30% over his career best, then sustaining it.

That's awesome that you have the ability to say exactly where a players peak point production potential is, that level of clairvoyance should serve you very well in your scouting endeavors.

If Marner ends up being so mediocre, that probably helps the Leafs pick to be higher next year, right?

And I noticed you dropped JVR off the docket...convenient

Also great that you can speak for Leafs management, I'm sure they'll be thrilled not to have the burden of thinking for themselves any more

Tell you what, let's do this instead...I assume you're a Jersey fan, so we'll give you JVR (Poor man's Gaudreau) for Zacha (Poor man's Marner) and a 2017 1st (surely you can't be as bad as the leafs, so this will very likely be a lower pick, right?) I won't even add the roster player to fill the shoes of JVR, because I'm feeling generous. Jersey should accept this right? JVR plays on their top line and is still only 27 on a team friendly contract...


I have no doubt that Gaudreau is worth alot to a team in the right position, but to get Calgary to take on the risk of future pieces (prospects and picks) not turning out, you have to give them potential to get more value out of the trade (ie, if all the pieces work out, they win the trade). The leafs were very recently bitten by a very similar trade, and should absolutely not repeat. We're not looking to contend right now, and should take the route that maximizes out potential talent - We should sit on our lottery tickets and hope the numbers get called