Proposal: Leafs - Flames

[Johnnybegood13]

Read the post over again slowly. Not surprising that you seemed to ignore a section I said. No winger like that can take you to the promise land unless they have a dominant center accompanying them. I repeat, unless they have a dominant centre accompanying them. Kane has Toews.

In order to be a contender, you need a centre to control the match up game. Its important when the game gets tight. This is common knowledge and I'm sure you already know this, you just don't want any negativity around ur boy Gaudreau.

I'm not ignoring anything, Kane doesn't even play with Toews on a regular shift. Anisimov is his center.

Kane drives the offense in Chicago not Toews or any other center, he out scored Toews by 48 friken points last year, please don't spew rubbish about needing a "dominant center" when it comes to wingers like Kane. Toews is a good 60 point 2-way center without Kane, nothing more, and he should name his bank account and first born after Patrick Kane.

 

[Connor]

Basically you chose a singular arbitrary stat to base your entire argument on and have now declared it the be all and end all of player evaluation?

Ok then, seems like you are a rational person with reasonable debating techniques.

No. You stated that JVR was 50th or something close to that in PPG (you being the one who cherry picked the stat). I went to a stat that was more telling of a players effectiveness 5 on 5 (I thought it was the stat you chose).

Its good that we had Colin Greening and Brad Boyes then, who were both in the top 90 forwards in 5 on 5 pts/60, so are top line forwards by definiton....right?

BTW, JVR was also a top 90 forward...so even using this single stat in isolation (which makes it so ridiculous that guys like Boyes and Greening are above him), JVR is still, by definition, a 1st line forward.

Maybe its worth considering that the leafs were the worst team in the NHL last year, and that its tough to put up points 5 on 5 if you're hemmed in your own zone all the time, or if your linemates are lower caliber

JVR - Kadri, Komarov, Phaneuf, Bozak
Gaudreau - Monahan, Giordano, Brodie, Hudler

Which set of linemates do you think helps point production more?

JVR's PP Pts/60 is actually better than anyone on the flames....so I guess even though he's not an impact player, he would be your best powerplay producer, since looking at stats in isolation works?

Oh, and Joe Colborne was Calgary's best player - how could you let him walk?? 2.52 5on5 pts/60....good for 10th in the NHL, he's elite.

I think I could be a really good GM, I could put together an under-the-radar group of first line forwards so cheap and easy (according to 5on5 Pts/60) - Erik Haula (46th), Nick Bonino (59th), Jannik Hansen (61st), Devante Smith-Pelley (69th), then I'll make a big push for Anasthasiou (7th) and the aforementioned Colborne (10th).....wow, powerhouse. How have NHL clubs not caught on to this inefficiency yet?? They're still chasing these so-called "elite" guys like Ovechkin (52nd), Malkin (58th), Getzlaf (92nd), Stamkos (96th) and Giroux (98th), or so-called "first liners" like Monahan (80th, a mere 4 spots ahead of JVR, who we can all agree is a pretty mediocre hockey player)


....point made, or shall I continue?

No. What you speaking about is non-sense to dispel the fact that Van Riemsdyk although touted as a 1st line forward by Leaf fans and Toronto media is not.

He cannot pull a 1st line. He produces at a 2nd line rate 5 on 5 (look at the link I posted which shows all NHL forwards over the last two seasons and their points 5 on 5 per 60 and you'll see Van Riemsdyk, WAAAAAY down there.

I'm not a Flames fan btw, the stuff posted by most Leaf fans is so ridiculous I have to say something.

Over the past three seasons Sean Monahan is 122nd among forwards for P/60.

He is beaten by studs such as Michael Frolik, Brad Boyes, Zach Kassian, Ales Hemsky, Joe Colborne and more.

I think based on this evidence Sean Monahan is probably closer to a 3C than a 2C. This arbitrary stat does not lie, he is not as good or valuable as you think.

FWIW Gaudreau is ranked 35th in P/60 using this same metric. He is a mighty fine second line winger.

There are 3 players on the 1st line and 30 teams making 90 players who receive 1st line minutes.

Monahan is of 2nd line quality.

Why are we even talking about this? Gaudreau is not going to Toronto for Marner without a serious + coming back, I don't care what anyone says.

Marner, Nylander FOR Gadreau, Jankowski

 

[Halla]

No. You stated that JVR was 50th or something close to that in PPG (you being the one who cherry picked the stat). I went to a stat that was more telling of a players effectiveness 5 on 5 (I thought it was the stat you chose).



No. What you speaking about is non-sense to dispel the fact that Van Riemsdyk although touted as a 1st line forward by Leaf fans and Toronto media is not.

He cannot pull a 1st line. He produces at a 2nd line rate 5 on 5 (look at the link I posted which shows all NHL forwards over the last two seasons and their points 5 on 5 per 60 and you'll see Van Riemsdyk, WAAAAAY down there.

I'm not a Flames fan btw, the stuff posted by most Leaf fans is so ridiculous I have to say something.



There are 3 players on the 1st line and 30 teams making 90 players who receive 1st line minutes.

Monahan is of 2nd line quality.



Marner, Nylander FOR Gadreau, Jankowski

leafs hang up and block the flames number. horribad

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

leafs hang up and block the flames number. horribad

Stop overrating Leafs prospects, you're making the whole fanbase look bad.

 

[TOGuy14]

Stop overrating Leafs prospects, you're making the whole fanbase look bad.

Stop hating on the leafs and go somewhere else.

We don't want to pay the price for Gaudreau, we want to rebuild correctly.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Stop hating on the leafs and go somewhere else.

We don't want to pay the price for Gaudreau, we want to rebuild correctly.

Where am I hating on Leafs? I suppose anyone who doesn't overrate your prospects is a Leaf hater.

 

[TOGuy14]

Where am I hating on Leafs? I suppose anyone who doesn't overrate your prospects is a Leaf hater.

You have been trying to rip apart every Leaf poster in this thread for days now.

The consensus among our fans is we don't want to pay the price for Gaudreau and want to stay the course with our rebuild.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

You have been trying to rip apart every Leaf poster in this thread for days now.

The consensus among our fans is we don't want to pay the price for Gaudreau and want to stay the course with our rebuild.

Good,since the flames wouldn't trade him anyway lets just call it a day. and nobody is ripping Leaf posters who haven't deserved it because of stupid comments and proposals.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

How is Gaudreau defensive game?

 

[Morbo]

Even if the Flames wanted to move him, there's no need for the Leafs to trade for Gadreau. They've got two pretty good chances at a top-level winger in Marner and Nylander, they just need to be patient and see if one of them pans out. Or hopefully both.

 

[Atomos2]

I'm not ignoring anything, Kane doesn't even play with Toews on a regular shift. Anisimov is his center.

Kane drives the offense in Chicago not Toews or any other center, he out scored Toews by 48 friken points last year, please don't spew rubbish about needing a "dominant center" when it comes to wingers like Kane. Toews is a good 60 point 2-way center without Kane, nothing more, and he should name his bank account and first born after Patrick Kane.

That doesn't matter. Toews will take on the top defensive duties to shutdown the other teams top players. That's the importance of a top 2 way centre bud. When was the last time you saw Kane involved in shutting down the other teams top line. Gimme a break, Kane should be buying Toews dinner every night for letting him focus on the only dimension of the game he's elite at which is scoring.

 

[sd1976]

As a fan of both teams it's funny to see Leafs fan saying no. Gaudreau is Marner's ceiling so I do this trade in a heartbeat if I'm the Leafs.

This trade makes zero sense from the flames side of things and doesn't make much sense for the rebuilding Leafs to acquire a player in their prime when they are still far off from even making the playoffs. That being said Johnny hockey is worth wayyy more than Marner.

Johnny is a fantastic hockey player, but Kane is Marner's ceiling... Don't know if you've been watching him at all, but kid is downright dominant at times.

 

[QcFlames12]

How is Gaudreau defensive game?

Quite underrated actually, he is a pest and is always stealing pucks. Can't study people along the boards or anything but is actually very very very good at stealing pucks and getting the puck back.

 

[LondonKendrick]

I understand that Johny has more value at the moment but not trading the most exciting human highlight reel prospect in the game today. Ceiling or floor Leafs Nation is invested in Marner.

Also not sure why the Leafs would trade what they hope is a cornerstone prospect to get older and pay more money on another talent.

 

[QcFlames12]

Johnny is a fantastic hockey player, but Kane is Marner's ceiling... Don't know if you've been watching him at all, but kid is downright dominant at times.

If Kane is his ceiling than what is his floor? You do not seem to realize how many players do not hit their ceiling. I remember when the flames had bartschi who was super dangerous in Junoir. He had speed, grit, scoring capacity everything you wanted in a player. We compared him to Marian Hossa very often because honestly that is who he played like against kids, he dominated. At the NHL level what has he done? I think the consensus would agree that Sven will never become the player we all had wished for him to be, same can go for Marner.

At this point in time Marner has proved absolutely nothing, he was on one of the most talented lines in Junoir and had a great team behind him, this could inflate his stats quite a bit. But in no world would a GM trade an 80 point winger for someone who one day may put up points near that. Gaudteau will be the better player his entire career and not many people can argue that. He is a top 5 point getting player in the League, so stop overating your prospects and imagine the shoe on the other foot. Hell no Marner gets you Gaudreau, heck even along with Nylander and a first round pick I wouldn't trade you him. No GM trades a 22 year old PPG, especially not for question marks

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Johnny is a fantastic hockey player, but Kane is Marner's ceiling... Don't know if you've been watching him at all, but kid is downright dominant at times.

Gaudreau's ceiling is higher than Marner's ceiling, and his floor is much higher.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Gaudreau's ceiling is higher than Marner's ceiling, and his floor is much higher.

I do not agree, Marner has at least the same ceiling as J.G. As well J.G's floor was a non NHL player while there was never a doub't that Marner was going to be a NHLer

 

[Nithoniniel]

You have been trying to rip apart every Leaf poster in this thread for days now.

The consensus among our fans is we don't want to pay the price for Gaudreau and want to stay the course with our rebuild.

Sometimes they deserve it. In my experience, Whiskey is a great poster who also thinks unusually highly of Gaudreau, so most difference in opinion is due to that.

I do not agree, Marner has at least the same ceiling as J.G. As well J.G's floor was a non NHL player while there was never a doub't that Marner was going to be a NHLer

I think the point was that Gaudreau, as he is now, has a much higher floor and that's hard to argue with. I agree with you though that they have similarly high upside.

Have to say that I'm surprised this thread lives. Saw it when it was new and immediately thought that it was a clear case where neither of the fanbases does it. Should have known that things would get bogged down in value arguments.

 

[colchar]

Gaudreau's ceiling is higher than Marner's ceiling, and his floor is much higher.

Now you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[bobg1]

No I'll keep Marner

 

[colchar]

Did you miss where the guy I was replying to said they didn't want to trade Marner for Gaudreau because he didn't want to build around a small winger?

No I didn't. You then insinuated that they are going to build around Marner, which they are not going to do. They are going to build around Matthews.

 

[bobg1]

How can you say Marner isn't a focal point, he hasn't even got to the league yet

 

[sxvnert]

Lateral move for both teams.

 

[bobg1]

Why too much talent?????

 

[Gavy]

Lmao people are acting like we're not allowed to want to rebuild property and that were ridiculous that we don't want to trade multiple valuable assets for 1 person.

1 for 1 we trade Marner for Gaudreau 10/10 but we can't afford to add to Marner.
WE. ARE. REBUILDING. yes, we know Gaudreau isn't old.
We aren't trading Marner and Nylander for Jankowski ( we have a lot of prospects who are better) and Gaudreau.

Both Nylander and Marner are expected to be elite players like Gaundreau, of course we don't know if they will ever reach that. We also don't know if the rebuild will work, but our best bet is to keep our prospects and rebuild the right way to have the best chance of it working.

We're allowed to not want to trade our prospects for other teams established players