Proposal: Leafs - Flames

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I do not agree, Marner has at least the same ceiling as J.G. As well J.G's floor was a non NHL player while there was never a doub't that Marner was going to be a NHLer

As of today, his floor and ceiling are both higher.

 

[QcFlames12]

Now you're embarrassing yourself.

So Marner has a 95 pt potential and a 70 point floor. Take off the rose coloured glasses, or your hammered... Seriously??????

 

[Deadly Dogma]

As of today, his floor and ceiling are both higher.

I agree about the floor but not the ceiling aspect until I see a few NHL of years of Marner

 

[colchar]

So Marner has a 95 pt potential and a 70 point floor. Take off the rose coloured glasses, or your hammered... Seriously??????

I never claimed that, but nice straw man.

I was saying that the other poster is embarrassing himself because of the absolute statements he is making about Marner, as well as about Gaudreau.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Now you're embarrassing yourself.

No he isn't, stop looking at junior stats threw rose colored glasses, the NHL is a whole new ball game and Gaudreau has proven after 2 season he's a star player, I remember another London player hyped by Edmonton as the next one because he had 145 points, how did that turn out?

Don't kid yourself anywhere outside of Toronto Gaudreau would crush Marner in a poll on floor and ceiling.

 

[DFF]

I do not agree, Marner has at least the same ceiling as J.G. As well J.G's floor was a non NHL player while there was never a doub't that Marner was going to be a NHLer

JG's floor is what he has already shown. NHL top 10 offensive player.
Marner's floor is a bust since he hasnt proved he can play in the NHL yet.

I doubt that Marner's ceiling is higher than top 10.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

No he isn't, stop looking at junior stats threw rose colored glasses, the NHL is a whole new ball game and Gaudreau has proven after 2 season he's a star player, I remember another London player hyped by Edmonton as the next one because he had 145 points, how did that turn out?

Don't kid yourself anywhere outside of Toronto Gaudreau would crush Marner in a poll on floor and ceiling.

Obviously....... point is those other players were not the drivers. You can just flat out tell Marner is special and considering Marner has at least an equal skill set to J.G if J.G can make it I have little doubt that Marner will be fine.

 

[DFF]

Obviously....... point is those other players were not the drivers. You can just flat out tell Marner is special and considering Marner has at least an equal skill set to J.G if J.G can make it I have little doubt that Marner will be fine.

Your feeling is irrelevant.

Need proof

 

[Janks]

Obviously....... point is those other players were not the drivers. You can just flat out tell Marner is special and considering Marner has at least an equal skill set to J.G if J.G can make it I have little doubt that Marner will be fine.

You must be delusional to think Marner has an equal skill set to Johnny. He's a special kid, but right now - he's no where close to Johnny. Good try.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Obviously....... point is those other players were not the drivers. You can just flat out tell Marner is special and considering Marner has at least an equal skill set to J.G if J.G can make it I have little doubt that Marner will be fine.

There is a lot more to being an NHL star than skill set alone. (not that Marner is equal)

 

[13pacheco31]

No he isn't, stop looking at junior stats threw rose colored glasses, the NHL is a whole new ball game and Gaudreau has proven after 2 season he's a star player, I remember another London player hyped by Edmonton as the next one because he had 145 points, how did that turn out?

Don't kid yourself anywhere outside of Toronto Gaudreau would crush Marner in a poll on floor and ceiling.

So what you're telling me is that a kid who in the past 2 season in juniors has put up an over 2 PPG average, was a main driving force on a championship team and won OHL and Memorial Cup MVP and who was drafted 4th overall doesn't at the very least have a potential ceiling of putting up 80-100 points in a season? Yes, he could be a bust, and yes, he may very well pan out but not reach that ceiling but to say that the ceiling is non existent and the say Leafs fans are the delusional ones?

 

[Johnnybegood13]

So what you're telling me is that a kid who in the past 2 season in juniors has put up an over 2 PPG average, was a main driving force on a championship team and won OHL and Memorial Cup MVP and who was drafted 4th overall doesn't at the very least have a potential ceiling of putting up 80-100 points in a season? Yes, he could be a bust, and yes, he may very well pan out but not reach that ceiling but to say that the ceiling is non existent and the say Leafs fans are the delusional ones?

LOL, All offensive players drafted top 5 have the potential of 80 - 100 points but very few actually do it.

Out of the last 10 drafts (50 players)

three 80 point scorers
two 90 point scorers
two 100 points scorers

Of these seven players only one wasn't drafted 1st or 2nd overall, Backstrome (4th in 2006)

I wish Marner and his fans all the best at even reaching 80 points.

 

[QcFlames12]

LOL, All offensive players drafted top 5 have the potential of 80 - 100 points but very few actually do it.

Out of the last 10 drafts (50 players)

three 80 point scorers
two 90 point scorers
two 100 points scorers

Of these seven players only one wasn't drafted 1st or 2nd overall, Backstrome (4th in 2006)

I wish Marner and his fans all the best at even reaching 80 points.

Mic drop

 

[Kelly]

LOL, All offensive players drafted top 5 have the potential of 80 - 100 points but very few actually do it.

Out of the last 10 drafts (50 players)

three 80 point scorers
two 90 point scorers
two 100 points scorers

Of these seven players only one wasn't drafted 1st or 2nd overall, Backstrome (4th in 2006)

I wish Marner and his fans all the best at even reaching 80 points.

What exactly about his post are you misunderstanding?

he may very well pan out but not reach that ceiling but to say that the ceiling is non existent and the say Leafs fans are the delusional ones

Nobody is saying it's a sure thing, but if any prospect has the potential to reach 80 points, it's Mitch Marner.

FWIW - I agree Gaudreau's floor is obviously higher, Marner may not even become an NHL player (unlikely, but still a slim possibility). But Marner has a high ceiling, watching this kid in London all year made this very apparent to me, and anybody else who's watched him consistently.

 

[QcFlames12]

I never claimed that, but nice straw man.

I was saying that the other poster is embarrassing himself because of the absolute statements he is making about Marner, as well as about Gaudreau.

His statements said that Gaudreau had both a higher ceiling and floor this by stating he is embarrassing himself you clearly saying that Marner has both a higher floor and ceiling. In his second NHL season Gaudreau went PPG and is 22 years old, assuming his max peak like most forwards come around 24-26 he may be looking at a max of 95 if everything went to the very best. I assume he will be around 87-90 though, thus giving him a max ceiling of around 95 points. His floor is what he is today, which is PPG but we can go a little lower just for the sake of the argument and say 70. So you are saying that the poster who stated both Gaudreau's floor and ceiling was embarrassing himself? Marner doesn't have the floor that Gaudreau has nor the ceiling. Toronto fans should hope that Marner hits the floor of what Gaudreau is at.. I mean in five years time do you really see Marner out scoring Gaudreau, imagine if Gaudreau was on your team, would you change opinions? I believe so.

Pure offensive potential alone there are not many players with a higher potential in the entire NHL who could put do Gaudreau and the only clear cut player is obviously Mcdavid who is an absolute monster offensive force. Just please be rational, watch Gaudreau do what he does against Men not boys, Marner isn't even close. I think Marner is going to be a good player but he will be on the Sam Bennett level of offensive player, hovering around 65 points a season not where Johhny will be

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

LOL, All offensive players drafted top 5 have the potential of 80 - 100 points but very few actually do it.

Out of the last 10 drafts (50 players)

three 80 point scorers
two 90 point scorers
two 100 points scorers

Of these seven players only one wasn't drafted 1st or 2nd overall, Backstrome (4th in 2006)

I wish Marner and his fans all the best at even reaching 80 points.

great post

 

[Johnnybegood13]

What exactly about his post are you misunderstanding?

I didn't misunderstand anything and I put the word potential in my responce, maybe you missed this part of his comment:

was a main driving force on a championship team and won OHL and Memorial Cup MVP and who was drafted 4th overall doesn't at the very least have a potential ceiling of putting up 80-100 points in a season?

I just pointed out just how hard it is to predict a 80+ point scorer no matter how good they are in junior. (especially on a stacked team)

 

[Deadly Dogma]

LOL, All offensive players drafted top 5 have the potential of 80 - 100 points but very few actually do it.

Out of the last 10 drafts (50 players)

three 80 point scorers
two 90 point scorers
two 100 points scorers

Of these seven players only one wasn't drafted 1st or 2nd overall, Backstrome (4th in 2006)

I wish Marner and his fans all the best at even reaching 80 points.

OK lets try top 5 picks excluding D-men from 2000-2010

2000 has Heatly 100+ points, Gaborik 80+ points so thats 2 out 3
2001 Kovalchuk and Spezza both 90+ so 2 out of 5
2002 Nash 1 point shy of 80 over PPG tho unlike J.G so 1 for 1
2003 Staal 100+ Vanek 80+ so 2 out of 4
2004 Ovi, Malkin and Ladd(78) so 3 out of 4
2005 Crosby so 1 of 3
2006 Towes and Kessel just under 80 and Backstrom so thats 3 out of 4
2007 Kane 1 out of 3
2008 Stamkos 1 for 1
2009 Tavares so 1 out of 4
2010 Seguin and Hall so 2 out of 4
so thats 19 out of 36 that hit 80 points
using the last 5 drafts is invalid due to most not being fully developed yet.
so to your point that Marner is a long shot to hit 80 I say that I take the over 50% odds that top 5 forwards break 80 points.

 

[cookie]

No don't use that range of top-5 picks because they aren't arbitrary enough. Actually the game has changed quite a bit and you're doing the comparison a disservice by going all the way back to 2000, even if you have a good point with how much each player's career has played out.

Actually getting close to 80 points is a miracle nowadays. The perception surrounding first line and elite forward talent and their scoring ability are much different than they were back in 2000. But underestimating a top pick whose game has only gotten better over the years is foolish--though for the sake of comparison, Marner will need his own version of Monahan, Giordano, Brodie, etc., to even stand a chance against Gaudreau. With a supporting core like that in place, he'll still have to fight nylander for those prime scoring minutes on the PP and offensive zone draws.

What's being lost in the comparisons is that Marner plays the game a little differently than gaudreau does... But even if the game and skill levels are equal, the team compositions work against Marner's favour when it comes to raw point production.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

OK lets try top 5 picks excluding D-men from 2000-2010

2000 has Heatly 100+ points, Gaborik 80+ points so thats 2 out 3
2001 Kovalchuk and Spezza both 90+ so 2 out of 5
2002 Nash 1 point shy of 80 over PPG tho unlike J.G so 1 for 1
2003 Staal 100+ Vanek 80+ so 2 out of 4
2004 Ovi, Malkin and Ladd(78) so 3 out of 4
2005 Crosby so 1 of 3
2006 Towes and Kessel just under 80 and Backstrom so thats 3 out of 4
2007 Kane 1 out of 3
2008 Stamkos 1 for 1
2009 Tavares so 1 out of 4
2010 Seguin and Hall so 2 out of 4
so thats 19 out of 36 that hit 80 points
using the last 5 drafts is invalid due to most not being fully developed yet.
so to your point that Marner is a long shot to hit 80 I say that I take the over 50% odds that top 5 forwards break 80 points.

LOL, you went back 6 years and used the previous 11 years to find some 80 point scorers, If they're good it shouldn't have to take 5 years to prove it(see Crosby,Ovechkin,Backstrome,Stamkos,Tavares,Seguin and others) and then you had the balls to use "almost" 80 point scorers as well.

Please go eat a sandwich and take a nap.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

LOL, you went back 6 years and used the previous 11 years to find some 80 point scorers, If they're good it shouldn't have to take 5 years to prove it(see Crosby,Ovechkin,Backstrome,Stamkos,Tavares,Seguin and others) and then you had the balls to use "almost" 80 point scorers as well.

Please go eat a sandwich and take a nap.

I figured almost would be OK when I hear J.G is an 80 point player and ppg out side of his 1 game year.
Also I capped it off at 2010 because we know what each player is.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

No don't use that range of top-5 picks because they aren't arbitrary enough. Actually the game has changed quite a bit and you're doing the comparison a disservice by going all the way back to 2000, even if you have a good point with how much each player's career has played out.

Actually getting close to 80 points is a miracle nowadays. The perception surrounding first line and elite forward talent and their scoring ability are much different than they were back in 2000. But underestimating a top pick whose game has only gotten better over the years is foolish--though for the sake of comparison, Marner will need his own version of Monahan, Giordano, Brodie, etc., to even stand a chance against Gaudreau. With a supporting core like that in place, he'll still have to fight nylander for those prime scoring minutes on the PP and offensive zone draws.

What's being lost in the comparisons is that Marner plays the game a little differently than gaudreau does... But even if the game and skill levels are equal, the team compositions work against Marner's favour when it comes to raw point production.

Good post, I said earlier "it takes more than just skill" to be a top scorer, you point out the teammate part and of course there's the want and drive part as well.

 

[cookie]

LOL, you went back 6 years and used the previous 11 years to find some 80 point scorers, If they're good it shouldn't have to take 5 years to prove it(see Crosby,Ovechkin,Backstrome,Stamkos,Tavares,Seguin and others) and then you had the balls to use "almost" 80 point scorers as well.

Please go eat a sandwich and take a nap.

Gaudreau is also an almost 80 point guy so the logic should work in this case.

And forwards hit their prime at 26-27 so what are you doing even bringing generational material like Ovechkin into the discussion? Give Marner his fair shake before making any claim.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

I figured almost would be OK when I hear J.G is an 80 point player and ppg out side of his 1 game year.
Also I capped it off at 2010 because we know what each player is.

If you look back this part of the "discussion" isn't about Gaudreau being an 80 point player (he hasn't done it yet and may never) it started when someone said Marner had "as least" an 80-100 point ceiling.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Gaudreau is also an almost 80 point guy so the logic should work in this case.

And forwards hit their prime at 26-27 so what are you doing even bringing generational material like Ovechkin into the discussion? Give Marner his fair shake before making any claim.

I didn't make any claim on Marner, I just pointed out it's not easy to hit 80 points let alone a 100.