Kyle Dubas discussion

[Gary Nylund]

It's a very unforgiving thing to stand pat. Despite making two of the best deals of the year (Ritchie trade and Gio trade), the goaltending thing is what everyone is going to be looking at of course.

The brutal Ritchie never gelled with the team and was waived with no takers and got somehow turned into a physical RHD playing solid effective minutes on the top line for the team so not only did we get rid of a guy making 2.5 a year (and the next year!) contributing nothing to the team, we replaced him with a perfect guy for the team just when we needed him (in light of the injuries to D) who only makes 1.35 a year. That trade is an "A" all day. The fact that Dubas created this situation in the first place doesn't change that fact.

Much like the amazing Giroux deal, the Giordano deal was made so much better for us by the fact he made it clear he wanted to come here and the fact we got Blackwell too (who everyone seems to think is a solid middle sixer) for only two seconds and a 3rd (with 50% retention on Giordano!) is one of the best value trades of a very pricey seller's market. Ad in the fact Sandin and Kase joined Muzzin on the DL and these two came along at the perfect time to help out there. Also, have to remember that Giordano will be reuniting with the partner he won the Norris with 3 years which means the chemistry is far less of a worry.

Another easy "A" trade in my books.

Overall, I would still give Dubas a "B" on the trade front as I, as much as anyone else, wanted another keeper and that was the biggest issue for me. I understand he would have had to break his "no 1sts" pledge to do it but some goaltending insurance would have made me less uneasy going into the playoffs. Maybe an additional forward but Im actually intrigued by the fact Blackwell played really good minutes on the Panarin/Strome 2nd line with the Rangers last year so he might actually be able to be the guy to slot in next to Tavares/Willy.

No need to call me a homer here I dont think.

Just try me on a hypothetical involving Dubas giving up an unprotected 2023 first and 4th and a decent prospect for Chiarot.....or 2 firsts and two young players for frigging Hagel (and a couple of 4ths). I would have burned him to the ground.

Nothing in this lengthy post makes me move from my original stance which is that what you originally said (quoted above), is hyperbole and smacks of homerism.

 

[Menzinger]

Why not exactly?

There are plenty of reasons why players wouldn't want to be here.

Auston loves the Coyotes as any Torontonians love the Leafs. There are other cities players would love to play

If he goes to the Rangers, he'll be treated like god in NY and the lifestyle in NY is just something else
He can easily go to California, I mean that's where he's orginally from

He can go to Tampa, players rave about living in Tampa and MIami

There are a lot Canadians' love living in the states and playing for American teams. Rick Nash never wanted to move to Canada, Brent Burns has a nice barn he lives off in Texas

While there's no guarantees about anything, I suspect the number of other teams that Matthews will be interested in signing with outside the Leafs will be smaller than folks assume

1) he will want to get paid (doubt he's interested in taking the Sunbelt discount for nice weather)

2) he actually wants to be a star and seems to thrive on media attention. Meaning New York, maybe LA/Chicago. There's really not a ton of US markets that can replicate the media power of Toronto when it comes to hockey stars.

 

[PromisedLand]

Kyle Dubas told ESPN that he set out to improve the DEFENSE and COMPETITIVENESS of his team.

What does this mean for what the team was before the trade deadline? Not good enough defensively. And... didn't have the right make up from a competitive standpoint.

If you thought that competitiveness was not an issue with this team, and it may still be, the GM believes otherwise. This has been a yearly issue with this group and those who have preached the intangibles being on par with skill haven't seen this issue incorrectly.

So many issues in Leafs nation revolve around differing factions arguing over whether this team has the heart it takes to win. It's screamed by one side that it's not there, while another dismisses it as something only a boomer would believe.

For me, I'm glad Kyle is channeling his inner boomer.

*This video is not available in your country

 

[Dreakmur]

I think MLSE makes a move if we lose again. Or, less likely, Shanny is given one last chance with the understanding he cleans house. I think we forget the mood after last season, we go right back there and add 10 degrees. Maybe he stays, the media still seems enamoured with him.

We absolutely do not need to clean house. We’ve got like 90% of a championship team. Im just not sure Dubas would make the couple moves I think he should.

 

[Zybalto]

Nothing in this lengthy post makes me move from my original stance which is that what you originally said (quoted above), is hyperbole and smacks of homerism.

I think they are both "A" trades which is by definition two of the best. I explained why. I don't mind doubling down on that as I think its true. I also think the goaltending should have been resolved in a better way and Dubas failed in that area. I don't mind criticizing him there including the decision to sign Mrazek in the first place.

You can call that hyperbole and homerism if you want but the fact you havnt even explained why you think I'm wrong speaks volumes. We all know you have previous issues with Dubas and it's bleeding into your objectivity when looking at these events which is....rather ironic isnt it?

 

[Stephen]

We absolutely do not need to clean house. We’ve got like 90% of a championship team. Im just not sure Dubas would make the couple moves I think he should.

Depending on how the playoff run goes and how healthy some of those middle class pieces are, I'd argue for a proactive offseason where the Leafs manage to dump Muzzin, Mrazek, Campbell, Kerfoot, Holl, and just sort of rework the middle of the lineup and contract structure. Sort of an on the fly retool at the magnitude of the Rangers last year, but done so in a way to give the core the best support they need.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I’m not sure, man. There was a quote from keefe recently that made a lot of sense to the play of the grittier leafs when you kinda read between the lines.

Here is the play:



And here is Keefe’s response to the team’s reaction:



What does that make you think the message to the team overall is? Kind of sounds like this is how Keefe is coaching them. Ignore it, just play on

“So, I don’t know if it’s really worth engaging in it”

“You can pretend it’s going to make a difference, but it’s not going to make a difference”

“I’d rather just keep playing”

Reading between the lines here, I think Keefe is telling his team to not fight back

That's the Dubas "we're going to change the game" philosophy. A loser's philosophy.

 

[freshwind]

I can see Shanny staying on but I think the three are tied at the hip and hence all stay or all go.

i refer to the shanagang as the 3-headed monster ... i see it as a package deal, either they all stay or they all go

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Of course but it also doesn't make sense to completely ignore bad things that have happened as if they were irrelevant. The way we keep folding in game 7's bothers me. Is it "just one of those things" or "just small sample size" or is being outscored 11-2 in the 3 most important games we've played in the last 3 years a sign of something being wrong with this bunch? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but it's an extremely unpleasant piece of history that I can't forget about until we either win a playoff round, or at least show up and play our hearts out in a game 7. And I'm not saying it's the fault of the GM either butvif not him, then who's fault is it? You could say the players I guess but he's the guy who put the team together so ...

Whatever, what I think obviously doesn't matter, I'm just a dumb fan that's been following this team for over 50 years and is desperate for some playoff excitement. Maybe this will be the year ...

I'm with you my brother. It's time for us old guys o get rewarded. IMO Dubas is and has squandered the immense promise of this roster by his refusal to get rid of the non competitive cancers.

 

[DcW]

Dubas is a wrestling fan. We saw him for really the first time get testy yesterday about waivers and leaks. I’d love to see him go full heel turn and become the most hated gm. Be cocky, talk smack, be cut throat. May rub off on his players too

 

[weems]

Didn't he let Yamamoto have the puck on goal 1?

He looked very bad on both EDM goals.

First goal he lose's track of his man, Draisatl hits Yamamoto with a cross seam pass that could have possibly been prevented if Manson made a better read.

Second goal he literally caughs the puck up to Yamamoto as he's trying to exit the zone. Yamamoto pass's it to Kane whos right in front of the net and he scores.

Definitely not a very good game for Manson

3:20 first goal
5:25 second goal

 

[Gallagbi]

He looked very bad on both EDM goals.

First goal he lose's track of his man, Draisatl hits Yamamoto with a cross seam pass that could have possibly been prevented if Manson made a better read.

Second goal he literally caughs the puck up to Yamamoto as he's trying to exit the zone. Yamamoto pass's it to Kane whos right in front of the net and he scores.

Definitely not a very good game for Manson

3:20 first goal
5:25 second goal

Looks like the double minor is on him too for Goal 1

 

[nuck]

Depending on how the playoff run goes and how healthy some of those middle class pieces are, I'd argue for a proactive offseason where the Leafs manage to dump Muzzin, Mrazek, Campbell, Kerfoot, Holl, and just sort of rework the middle of the lineup and contract structure. Sort of an on the fly retool at the magnitude of the Rangers last year, but done so in a way to give the core the best support they need.

Goalie will be the tough nut to crack. If Campbell's game comes back thats great, if not replace this summer. Mrazek I think they hold into the season so he can show he can actually play. He has a history of a slump year here and there and then playing soundly the next season (never has back to back weak seasons as a pro). I think they may be stuck with Muzzin who will transition to a very expensive 3rd pairing guy in his final season. Will see what he looks like fully unconcussed.

 

[PromisedLand]

i refer to the shanagang as the 3-headed monster ... i see it as a package deal, either they all stay or they all go

Started with

Shanahan then -> ShanaPlan then - > ShanaTank then -> ShanaBank then -> ShanaGang then -> ShanaStank then -> ???

(ShanaCanned? ShanaYank? ShanaSank?, ?????)

 

[Stephen]

Goalie will be the tough nut to crack. If Campbell's game comes back thats great, if not replace this summer. Mrazek I think they hold into the season so he can show he can actually play. He has a history of a slump year here and there and then playing soundly the next season (never has back to back weak seasons as a pro). I think they may be stuck with Muzzin who will transition to a very expensive 3rd pairing guy in his final season. Will see what he looks like fully unconcussed.

Depending on what happens the rest of the season, I could see a scenario where the Leafs flush both their goalies.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You can call that hyperbole and homerism if you want but the fact you havnt even explained why you think I'm wrong speaks volumes. We all know you have previous issues with Dubas and it's bleeding into your objectivity when looking at these events which is....rather ironic isnt it?

Over 30 teams in the league and you think two recent trades by Dubas are two of the best, that's pretty much homerism by definition so what's to explain? You're the one who'd have to explain how this is anything other than homerism and in order to do that, you'd have to provide an analysis of every trade made this year and explain how they're worse then these 2 moves by Dubas.

I can't stop laughing at your comment about my "previous issues with Dubas", objectivity and irony. I've said many times that I like most of the moves Dubas has made, not all but most. Please explain dude, how does that translate into my "previous issues with Dubas" impacting my objectivity. Take your time, I am looking forward to this.

There's nothing wrong with being a homer, I suggest you embrace it. You have been posting stats for months which oddly enough, seem to always highlight the positive things about our team and downplay the negative things. And now all of a sudden, these two recent moves by Dubas are two of the best the entire league has seen all year? And you're commenting on MY lack of objectivity? Get a grip dude.

 

[axlrose87]

i refer to the shanagang as the 3-headed monster ... i see it as a package deal, either they all stay or they all go

I prefer they go. I don’t want the playoffs to be the final nail but they will have to beat one of the top 4 teams in the league just to get through round one.
Imagine we lose and we have to keep the three losers? Seems like that is a leafs fans destiny lol

 

[Buds17]

Depending on what happens the rest of the season, I could see a scenario where the Leafs flush both their goalies.

That scenario could even happen just based on the fact that Campbell is a pending UFA and Mrazek has already been put on waivers by the team.

 

[ToneDog]

Depending on what happens the rest of the season, I could see a scenario where the Leafs flush both their goalies.

Dubas and Babs and goalies are like oil and vinegar. Can't get any worse if he has to flush both goalies this summer.

 

[Zybalto]

Over 30 teams in the league and you think two recent trades by Dubas are two of the best, that's pretty much homerism by definition so what's to explain? You're the one who'd have to explain how this is anything other than homerism and in order to do that, you'd have to provide an analysis of every trade made this year and explain how they're worse then these 2 moves by Dubas.

I can't stop laughing at your comment about my "previous issues with Dubas", objectivity and irony. I've said many times that I like most of the moves Dubas has made, not all but most. Please explain dude, how does that translate into my "previous issues with Dubas" impacting my objectivity. Take your time, I am looking forward to this.

There's nothing wrong with being a homer, I suggest you embrace it. You have been posting stats for months which oddly enough, seem to always highlight the positive things about our team and downplay the negative things. And now all of a sudden, these two recent moves by Dubas are two of the best the entire league has seen all year? And you're commenting on MY lack of objectivity? Get a grip dude.

Heh, I can be a fan at same time as trying to be objective.

Much of my stats posting lately has actually focused on how bad the goaltending is lately or how good Matthews has been this year as I'm interested in why the team is doing good/bad. I'm aware that bias can creep into anything and I've thought about this a few times and...yea....even though I detested Ritchie from about 2 weeks into the season, I don't think that or my fandom what is driving me to think of those two trades as amazing. Toronto is one of the best teams in the league so the stats are going to trend really hard towards positive anyways. The stats are the stats. They don't capture everything and I tend to highlight them hard when they show a pretty strong result. I try to balance them with eye test arguments and, of course, opinion-based stuff (we all see the game a little different right).

I mean, I think the Chiarot trade is a disaster because hes been terrible this year, his splits away from Weber are bad and he was carried hard in the playoffs last year with awful stats including goals against. I could still be wrong and he could find chemistry with Weegar or something I guess but I dont think its a good gamble just because the guy made it to a final on the back of a Cinderella goaltender......but I love the Giroux deal and have it up with the best. We all have opinions on things right?

I mean. you're the one who started all this with a "LOL" response, are throwing laughing emojis around but have never even commented on why I was wrong at all. I already explained my reasons....and my opinion on the trades can even change if Gio/Black are busts here or Boosh crashes out (although thats still a minor win no matter what IMO, its the fact he looks good as a regular that pushes it to amazing). As it stands, I love both those trades and most around here are at least positive about both. There were so many bad trades out there for the deadline, it would be pretty easy to show why those two were among the best overall....but thats a lot of work, especially when dealing someone who wont even give a clue as to why they got worked up in the first place.....

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Look at Andersen's numbers last playoffs what more could you ask for, and Campbell has a month to get fully recovered to play 16 straight games of the hardest hockey he has yet to play...keeping our fingers crossed he doesnt tweak somthing again.....also we had Andersen & Campbell lastyear....
Now were left with Mrazek(how do you sleep at night)

Oooo and when we lose in the 1st round this year and Andersen gets his team in the second round...what's gonna be the excuse then?

Freddie is 0-8 when in a position that winning a game would win a playoff series.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Good luck Carolina.

 

[hotpaws]

Freddie is 0-8 when in a position that winning a game would win a playoff series.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Good luck Carolina.

and Soup is 0-3

 

[riffle]

Freddie is 0-8 when in a position that winning a game would win a playoff series.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Good luck Carolina.

I was ecstatic he would no longer haunt us when it really mattered anymore. After watching what we have the last few weeks the thrill has gone. The thrill has gone away.

Saw Bill Armstrong grinning from ear-to-ear during an in-between periods interview tonight over using the 2nd in the Ritchie deal to get Jack McBain. I think he thinks that was the trade of the year. I love the Leafs, but I think he's more right than believing getting Lyubushkin to bury a bad contract qualifies that way.

EDIT: Right after my post, Ritchie came in alone and scored. Their broadcast team was raving about how terrific he's been since coming over from the Leafs.

 

[Dreakmur]

Depending on how the playoff run goes and how healthy some of those middle class pieces are, I'd argue for a proactive offseason where the Leafs manage to dump Muzzin, Mrazek, Campbell, Kerfoot, Holl, and just sort of rework the middle of the lineup and contract structure. Sort of an on the fly retool at the magnitude of the Rangers last year, but done so in a way to give the core the best support they need.

Moving out some depth parts isn't cleaning house.

 

[Brown Dog]

Freddie is 0-8 when in a position that winning a game would win a playoff series.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Good luck Carolina.

More like Fraud Andersen, am I right?