Kyle Dubas discussion

[The Iceman]

Manson was a tidy -2 last night in their 3-2 victory

 

[zeke]

Adding Manson to an already stacked defense is pretty big for them. Especially the physicality he will bring to their lineup. Adding Lehkonen and Cogliano were very solid adds to bolster the bottom 6. I thought those were excellent playoffs moves. Colgliano is a warrior and brings a ton of leadership.

Not sure Manson is any good any more tbh.

And I'm pretty sure Cogliano is poop.

Lehkonen is decent tho.

 

[Stephen]

Seems like Dubas is being a bit of a baby here. Agents know there are trade talks so it could have been leaked by anyone. For Dubas to come out and name names is pretty lame

Let’s face it. Everything Dubas does will be ridiculed by someone so it doesn’t matter. If he wants to go Bobby Clarke vs Pat Quinn and get into a pissing match with another manager I don’t have a problem with it. I think the Leafs organization should always be somewhat hostile towards the rest of the league.

 

[deprw]

I can't complain that we haven't won multiple cups yet with this core but I think not even being able to win one round is pretty poor performance and definitely worthy of criticism. Outscored 14-6 in our last 4 game 7's (11-2 in the last 3) suggests that maybe something is rotten with core of this team, or maybe it's just the goaltending?

Our core is still young and our stars especially. There have been multiple examples on this thread alone of teams having troubles when their core isn't ready. MacKinnon haven't gone past second round and you could argue their division is bit easier on first round than ours. Last three season other finalist have come from Atlantic. Those young teams winning Stanley Cups seem like early cap era anomalies. Since 2011 those winning teams have had fair share of experience.

I think it's sortsighted to look only results and therefore lead your changes only on them. Last season we should have gone past first round, but can you pin that on Dubas? Can you really say that our GM drop ball there? We lost Tavares, our captain, 3minutes into the first round. More experienced team won that series and we lost two our experienced core guys trough that series. I think team was best we had during that time I have followed Maple Leafs since 1994.

This year if Campbell falters it's basically on Dubas, because he gambled on goaltending and didn't adjust on TDL. Though I'm happy we didn't on that market. Our defense and offense are better this year, if we can keep our team healthy.

The question we should ask, is are we going to right direction? I'd say in overall we are, though we are in cap hell still we can improve bit by bit. It should be the marker not winning first round series. In worst case you change leadership, retool and end up being young inexperienced and make same mistakes again.

It's now on our core to solve this first round problem and on Campbell to play for his next contract.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Let’s face it. Everything Dubas does will be ridiculed by someone so it doesn’t matter. If he wants to go Bobby Clarke vs Pat Quinn and get into a pissing match with another manager I don’t have a problem with it. I think the Leafs organization should always be somewhat hostile towards the rest of the league.

They should concentrate at the league level and try to reduce the influence of blowhard homers like Jeremy Jacobs.

 

[Strangle]

Kinda getting tired of "if the Leafs don't make it out of round one again" talk, over and over. Tampa had their struggles early. Avalanche have had their share, although they've won a few rounds. Whatever. Boston and Washington we were underdogs, went to 7. Columbus was an even match. Montreal... ok I get it, but that matchup scared me from minute one. All bets are off against Montreal or Ottawa, games are always tight. Tampa was swept by Columbus FFS. It happens.

Let's let it play out and see what happens. This is a very good team, just need to get hot at the right time. I am anxious to see how GIO settles the whole defense after settling in and finding pairings that work.

Unfortunately tamp won’t the cup in 2004 and Colorado won in ‘96

So the struggles afterward are easier to stomach

 

[riffle]

Kyle Dubas told ESPN that he set out to improve the DEFENSE and COMPETITIVENESS of his team.

What does this mean for what the team was before the trade deadline? Not good enough defensively. And... didn't have the right make up from a competitive standpoint.

If you thought that competitiveness was not an issue with this team, and it may still be, the GM believes otherwise. This has been a yearly issue with this group and those who have preached the intangibles being on par with skill haven't seen this issue incorrectly.

So many issues in Leafs nation revolve around differing factions arguing over whether this team has the heart it takes to win. It's screamed by one side that it's not there, while another dismisses it as something only a boomer would believe.

For me, I'm glad Kyle is channeling his inner boomer.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Manson was a tidy -2 last night in their 3-2 victory

Josh Manson is a terrible defensemen and anyone who wanted to trade for him, let alone pay a big price was out of their minds.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think it's sortsighted to look only results and therefore lead your changes only on them. Last season we should have gone past first round, but can you pin that on Dubas? Can you really say that our GM drop ball there? We lost Tavares, our captain, 3minutes into the first round. More experienced team won that series and we lost two our experienced core guys trough that series. I think team was best we had during that time I have followed Maple Leafs since 1994.

Of course but it also doesn't make sense to completely ignore bad things that have happened as if they were irrelevant. The way we keep folding in game 7's bothers me. Is it "just one of those things" or "just small sample size" or is being outscored 11-2 in the 3 most important games we've played in the last 3 years a sign of something being wrong with this bunch? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but it's an extremely unpleasant piece of history that I can't forget about until we either win a playoff round, or at least show up and play our hearts out in a game 7. And I'm not saying it's the fault of the GM either butvif not him, then who's fault is it? You could say the players I guess but he's the guy who put the team together so ...

Whatever, what I think obviously doesn't matter, I'm just a dumb fan that's been following this team for over 50 years and is desperate for some playoff excitement. Maybe this will be the year ...

 

[deprw]

What does that make you think the message to the team overall is? Kind of sounds like this is how Keefe is coaching them. Ignore it, just play on

“So, I don’t know if it’s really worth engaging in it”

“You can pretend it’s going to make a difference, but it’s not going to make a difference”

“I’d rather just keep playing”

Reading between the lines here, I think Keefe is telling his team to not fight back

It reads that choose your battles. Play harder and fight back, but by playing harder. You don't drop Bob Probert by sheer will, you have to do it other way. Same with guy like Wilson or to some extent Marchand. If you focus your energy trying to counter their shit you ruin your own game and that's what they want. Don't give them attention, hit them, challenge them, but don't fight them on their own terms. That's what that reads to me.

You know what's most disturbing to shit disturber? Not to give a shit to what they do. If they cross the line, then you send a message.

 

[deprw]

Of course but it also doesn't make sense to completely ignore bad things that have happened as if they were irrelevant. The way we keep folding in game 7's bothers me. Is it "just one of those things" or "just small sample size" or is being outscored 11-2 in the 3 most important games we've played in the last 3 years a sign of something being wrong with this bunch? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but it's an extremely unpleasant piece of history that I can't forget about until we either win a playoff round, or at least show up and play our hearts out in a game 7. And I'm not saying it's the fault of the GM either butvif not him, then who's fault is it? You could say the players I guess but he's the guy who put the team together so ...

Whatever, what I think obviously doesn't matter, I'm just a dumb fan that's been following this team for over 50 years and is desperate for some playoff excitement. Maybe this will be the year ...

To me this league is young men game in regular season and old man game during playoffs. I think the problem at the moment lies in our top players and especially Marner and Matthews. You can't just trade those guys, that would be career killer for GM and risky risky move. Nylander played his heart out last years playoffs, so it goes there. We have changed half the team and well, we kept Rielly who has been terrific in playoffs.

I think this team is most painful team to watch ever. I sure hope for playoff success and I see this team as all time good during my days following it. Still it's painful, because you want it to win so badly.

I just don't see the problem being our front office. We have adder three experienced top four dman, something that Lou couldn't do. Built up good development system with drafting and our offense is one the best in the league. This organization is credible, something that it wasn't before Shanahan. Dubas fixed Lous biggest falter and Hunters catastrophic drafting.

I don't know, but yeah. I share your pain. Even though I believe in this organization bit more. Only possible core shaking trade might be Nylander and god forbid if he plays his heart out again. That will be trade we will lose and we might send a wrong message to our team.

 

[IPS]

Manson was a tidy -2 last night in their 3-2 victory

Neither goal was his fault...

 

[zeke]

Neither goal was his fault...

Didn't he let Yamamoto have the puck on goal 1?

 

[DarkKnight]

It's all speculation.

You don't know any better than I do what their internal thought process is. Any amount of repeating yourself won't change that, but carry on

I gave you a direct quote from the man himself and you give me speculation back. Carry on.

 

[Jojalu]

Gotta love your take when 5th fastest to 100 wins >>>> 2 Gold medals and a Stanley Cup!

In fairness, Babcock didn't win a cup or a gold medal so early into his career. Who knows if Keefe ever wins a cup? He could win multiple. He might be done soon. I wouldn't compare him to anyone but it is still impressive to be 5th fastest to 100 wins.

 

[Strangle]

It reads that choose your battles. Play harder and fight back, but by playing harder. You don't drop Bob Probert by sheer will, you have to do it other way. Same with guy like Wilson or to some extent Marchand. If you focus your energy trying to counter their shit you ruin your own game and that's what they want. Don't give them attention, hit them, challenge them, but don't fight them on their own terms. That's what that reads to me.

You know what's most disturbing to shit disturber? Not to give a shit to what they do. If they cross the line, then you send a message.

I would say this approach doesn’t seem to be working for the Leafs.

Getting pushed around isn’t an effective tactic to winning, it’s not an effective tactic in a non-contact sport like basketball and it’s an even worse tactic in a contact sport like hockey.

You should fight for every inch of ice and for your respect.

I’m pretty sure reaves on the ice changes how Wilson plays the game, no matter what Keefe says

 

[Zybalto]

Saying that these two recent trades Dubas made are the two best deals anyone in the NHL has made this season has hyperbole and extreme homerism written all over it. But if you think that's the truth, you are of course entitled to that opinion.

The brutal Ritchie never gelled with the team and was waived with no takers and got somehow turned into a physical RHD playing solid effective minutes on the top line for the team so not only did we get rid of a guy making 2.5 a year (and the next year!) contributing nothing to the team, we replaced him with a perfect guy for the team just when we needed him (in light of the injuries to D) who only makes 1.35 a year. That trade is an "A" all day. The fact that Dubas created this situation in the first place doesn't change that fact.

Much like the amazing Giroux deal, the Giordano deal was made so much better for us by the fact he made it clear he wanted to come here and the fact we got Blackwell too (who everyone seems to think is a solid middle sixer) for only two seconds and a 3rd (with 50% retention on Giordano!) is one of the best value trades of a very pricey seller's market. Ad in the fact Sandin and Kase joined Muzzin on the DL and these two came along at the perfect time to help out there. Also, have to remember that Giordano will be reuniting with the partner he won the Norris with 3 years which means the chemistry is far less of a worry.

Another easy "A" trade in my books.

Overall, I would still give Dubas a "B" on the trade front as I, as much as anyone else, wanted another keeper and that was the biggest issue for me. I understand he would have had to break his "no 1sts" pledge to do it but some goaltending insurance would have made me less uneasy going into the playoffs. Maybe an additional forward but Im actually intrigued by the fact Blackwell played really good minutes on the Panarin/Strome 2nd line with the Rangers last year so he might actually be able to be the guy to slot in next to Tavares/Willy.

No need to call me a homer here I dont think.

Just try me on a hypothetical involving Dubas giving up an unprotected 2023 first and 4th and a decent prospect for Chiarot.....or 2 firsts and two young players for frigging Hagel (and a couple of 4ths). I would have burned him to the ground.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I gave you a direct quote from the man himself and you give me speculation back. Carry on.

Okay, but Dubas is not firing himself. Do you believe Shanahan will fire Dubas if they lose in the first round? I don't.

If Shanahan gets the axe, then Dubas and Keefe could go with him.

 

[ToneDog]

The brutal Ritchie never gelled with the team and was waived with no takers and got somehow turned into a physical RHD playing solid effective minutes on the top line for the team so not only did we get rid of a guy making 2.5 a year (and the next year!) contributing nothing to the team, we replaced him with a perfect guy for the team just when we needed him (in light of the injuries to D) who only makes 1.35 a year. That trade is an "A" all day. The fact that Dubas created this situation in the first place doesn't change that fact.

Much like the amazing Giroux deal, the Giordano deal was made so much better for us by the fact he made it clear he wanted to come here and the fact we got Blackwell too (who everyone seems to think is a solid middle sixer) for only two seconds and a 3rd (with 50% retention on Giordano!) is one of the best value trades of a very pricey seller's market. Ad in the fact Sandin and Kase joined Muzzin on the DL and these two came along at the perfect time to help out there. Also, have to remember that Giordano will be reuniting with the partner he won the Norris with 3 years which means the chemistry is far less of a worry.

Another easy "A" trade in my books.

Overall, I would still give Dubas a "B" on the trade front as I, as much as anyone else, wanted another keeper and that was the biggest issue for me. I understand he would have had to break his "no 1sts" pledge to do it but some goaltending insurance would have made me less uneasy going into the playoffs. Maybe an additional forward but Im actually intrigued by the fact Blackwell played really good minutes on the Panarin/Strome 2nd line with the Rangers last year so he might actually be able to be the guy to slot in next to Tavares/Willy.

No need to call me a homer here I dont think.

Just try me on a hypothetical involving Dubas giving up an unprotected 2023 first and 4th and a decent prospect for Chiarot.....or 2 firsts and two young players for frigging Hagel (and a couple of 4ths). I would have burned him to the ground.

Good to get rid of Ritchie but it also cost us a 2nd or 3rd and we took Hutton's 400K. I'd hardly call that an A. More like Dubas making lemonade out of a lemon.

As for the Tampa/Florida deal, they are all-in like we were last year. Did you burn Dubas to the ground last year for his deadline deals ?? Seems to me, they are much worse.

 

[Zybalto]

Good to get rid of Ritchie but it also cost us a 2nd or 3rd and we took Hutton's 400K. I'd hardly call that an A. More like Dubas making lemonade out of a lemon.

As for the Tampa/Florida deal, they are all-in like we were last year. Did you burn Dubas to the ground last year for his deadline deals ?? Seems to me, they are much worse.

Hutton was a completely separate deal and you are completely cutting out Lyubushkin for some reason. The cost was great if he continues to play well into the playoffs. Should be an "100% I'd do it again" trade from this entire fanbase no? Thats an "A". The lemon comment is trying to project the fact he created it but I think it's irrelevant to the trade itself.

unrelated, what the heck happened to Hutton anyways? .931 save% 5 years ago and just got old I guess?

 

[ToneDog]

Hutton was a completely separate deal and you are completely cutting out Lyubushkin for some reason. The cost was great if he continues to play well into the playoffs. Should be an "100% I'd do it again" trade from this entire fanbase no? Thats an "A". The lemon comment is trying to project the fact he created it but I think it's irrelevant to the trade itself.

unrelated, what the heck happened to Hutton anyways? .931 save% 5 years ago and just got old I guess?

Hutton was a separate deal but was made in order to give the Yokes some money to help cover some of the money owed to Ritchie. Never cut Lyub out, he is the gem of the deal for the Leafs. Good deal for the Leafs. I just would not call it an "A".

 

[DarkKnight]

Okay, but Dubas is not firing himself. Do you believe Shanahan will fire Dubas if they lose in the first round? I don't.

If Shanahan gets the axe, then Dubas and Keefe could go with him.

I think MLSE makes a move if we lose again. Or, less likely, Shanny is given one last chance with the understanding he cleans house. I think we forget the mood after last season, we go right back there and add 10 degrees. Maybe he stays, the media still seems enamoured with him.

 

[Zybalto]

Hutton was a separate deal but was made in order to give the Yokes some money to help cover some of the money owed to Ritchie. Never cut Lyub out, he is the gem of the deal for the Leafs. Good deal for the Leafs. I just would not call it an "A".

Just looked into myself and it still seems completely unrelated to Ritchie but more to do with early signs of goaltending trouble and the Leafs grabbing Hutton to see if he still had anything once he recovered from his injury issues (the main reason he had been struggling so badly this year after being tapped as their starter at one point).

 

[ToneDog]

I think MLSE makes a move if we lose again. Or, less likely, Shanny is given one last chance with the understanding he cleans house. I think we forget the mood after last season, we go right back there and add 10 degrees. Maybe he stays, the media still seems enamoured with him.

I can see Shanny staying on but I think the three are tied at the hip and hence all stay or all go.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]